Sabres shopping Mittelstadt?

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Sure it makes sense.  Timing  - I wanted this BEFORE the season when we were trying to make the playoffs.  

He was half right - he bet on Levi and another to emerge from UPL and Comrie 

Levi bet was, again, against massive precedent. the result was, sadly, not surprising. Sadly, hindsight need not apply 

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

Do we say better late than never on the goalie idea? Adams should not get a pass for finally recognizing something we all have discussed for a really long time. 

Trading Mitts is a reactive situation. One could argue you are "selling high" and if the right return comes back, the team could improve with it. It's possible. 

No, he doesn't get a pass because the goaltending has been an issue since KA arrived.  

Sure he could be selling him, but do you have any confidence that he'd get a return such as I outlined above that might improve the team?

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'll say this, if KA does trade Mitts, he needs to get a top 4 D with affordable term, and a competent 3rd line center who can win a draw, put up 50 points, and is under contract for a few years as well.  If he trades him for picks and prospects, TP should stop the deal and fire KA immediately.

Liquifying Casey for assets is no bueno 

Draft / prospect assets 

[GASabresIUFAN]

44 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You're not getting that for Mitts unless we are also sending a prospect or picks with him. 

OK, I'm ok with that.  Send out some of our excess forward prospects.  They aren't making the team anytime soon anyway.  Trade Savoie and Rosen, keep Östlund and Kulich.   

Edited February 9 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Logic?  Kevyn Adams? LMAO.  

I have another idea.  This time a serious one.  Trade Skinner and Mule.  You might have to eat 3 mill on Skinner's deal, even then that clears 10 mill off the books, gives you money to re-sign Mitts, plus extra cash to do something else.  Skinner will probably accept a trade to a cup contender.  Who may have to take a contract back for this season to get the deal done, but so what.  

I do agree with this.  

I am ok with trading Skinner now, and even eating some salary.   I would get rid of the legacy of losing - KO, Girgs, Skinner - move on from them.  

Muel is a guy I have been unhappy with for most of the season.   Still, given his age and inexperience, I think he might someday be a very good player and worthy of his contract - I say this because I have ZERO confidence in DG and his staff to coach team defense.  Because of this, all of our defenders have to deal with a liability. 

My internal source tells me there is no "DG system" and that the next coach is going to have his work cut out for him.  

[Thorny]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Do we say better late than never on the goalie idea? Adams should not get a pass for finally recognizing something we all have discussed for a really long time. 

Trading Mitts is a reactive situation. One could argue you are "selling high" and if the right return comes back, the team could improve with it. It's possible. 

You're not getting that for Mitts unless we are also sending a prospect or picks with him. 

 

Well of course he doesn’t get a pass, but I still want him to do it. Better late than never, absolutely. Always, always. The past doesn’t exist, do right by the moment.

But yes I’ve mentioned before, he’s looking at nothing short of needing to establish that perennial Cup contender to actually get full-on credit, at this point. The idea of willingly throwing all these years away in the name of a long-form rebuild was because “just making the playoffs” supposedly wasn’t good enough: if all we get out of this is a playoff berth after 5 seasons, that’s a poor performance from the GM. That’s a needlessly long pathway to take to make the playoffs and that’s borne out statistically, league relative. Are we going to pat him on the back if he makes it next year? The expectation was this year. Next year would be, “ok, you can keep your job.”

We’d obviously all be thrilled: better late than never. But there’s still a separation from a clear-headed analysis of the GM. We are capable of intelligently forming that distinction. 

Edited February 9 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I am ok with trading Skinner now, and even eating some salary.   I would get rid of the legacy of losing - KO, Girgs, Skinner - move on from them.  

Muel is a guy I have been unhappy with for most of the season.   Still, given his age and inexperience, I think he might someday be a very good player and worthy of his contract - I say this because I have ZERO confidence in DG and his staff to coach team defense.  Because of this, all of our defenders have to deal with a liability. 

My internal source tells me there is no "DG system" and that the next coach is going to have his work cut out for him.  

The thing about trading Mule (LHD) is that he has already been demoted to the 3rd pair.  This makes him expendable at this point even if eventually he develops (and stay healthy) into a shutdown D elsewhere.

Right now we have Dahlin (LHD) and Power (LHD) who aren't going anywhere.  Clifton (RHD) has another 2 years and looks to be a solid anchor for the 3rd pair.  Ryan Johnson, also a LHD, is working his way permanently into the lineup.  That leaves two openings for RHDs.  Also, I think Novikov (also an LHD), is looking to be close to NHL-ready, he has a similar size to Mule, is on an ELC, and could be ready for 3rd pairing duties as early as next fall.

Edited February 9 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He was half right - he bet on Levi and another to emerge from UPL and Comrie 

Levi bet was, again, against massive precedent. the result was, sadly, not surprising. Sadly, hindsight need not apply 

I think of it as he was 67% wrong. 

It just amazes me that he made that bet on Levi, while saying that they are "all in" and going for the playoffs.   Levi will spend next year in the AHL if we get a real NHL goalie.  No surprise.  

It also amazes me because everyone in the league knew that Comrie was, at best a backup that gets a limited number of games (he played only 19 games the year before we signed him).  We needed a 1A/1B to have a shot at the playoffs, Comrie is not a 1B, and has not proven to be a reliable 2.  

UPL is trending up as an NHL goalie. That is the remaining 33% thankfully.  We have one piece finally.  

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

I think of it as he was 67% wrong. 

It just amazes me that he made that bet on Levi, while saying that they are "all in" and going for the playoffs.   Levi will spend next year in the AHL if we get a real NHL goalie.  No surprise.  

It also amazes me because everyone in the league knew that Comrie was, at best a backup that gets a limited number of games (he played only 19 games the year before we signed him).  We needed a 1A/1B to have a shot at the playoffs, Comrie is not a 1B, and has not proven to be a reliable 2.  

UPL is trending up as an NHL goalie. That is the remaining 33% thankfully.  We have one piece finally.  

What did Adams actually say? I’ve gone searching for this in the past and have found a lot of quotes from the players to that effect..is there a chance Adams just sort of quietly..let them say it, rather than endorsing it? 

And ya the Comrie thing is just another funny example: the bets he makes that don’t work out almost always look like bad bets at the time

he aims low 

[Thorny]

Comrie had like..half a seasons worth of starts in a decade or something at it was like..oh maybe this is The Guy

ya, man 

Ya man maybe he’s the Guy

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'd also consider trading TNT before Mitts.  This sounds counterintuitive at first since TNT is kind of a unicorn.  He's big, skates well, has a wicked shot, and can stick-handle in a phone booth.  However, he still isn't a good two-way player.  To me, he is just a bigger better version of VO.  

I believe TNT's scoring is replaceable.  When I look at the Sabres, I see plenty of other goal scorers.  Quinn, Cozens, JJP, Skinner, and Tuch all can or have scored 30+ in the NHL.  Kulich is also a goal-scorer.  How many other playmakers and two-way forwards do we have other than Mitts? Benson? Maybe, but he is only 18, and years from his full potential.  Östlund? Probably, but we have no idea when he'll arrive in Buffalo (if ever).  

I also think TNT would garner a higher return than Mitts given his 90+ point season and reasonable contract.  

PS: This trade deadline may be the best opportunity to move Skinner and most of his contract.  He is still scoring at a good pace.  Teams need scoring in the playoffs.  The cap jumps next year giving teams the ability to afford his deal beyond this season and Skinner might be willing to waive him NMC to go to a playoff team after missing the playoffs all 13+ years of his career.

Edited February 9 by GASabresIUFAN

[Pimlach]

12 minutes ago, Thorny said:

What did Adams actually say? I’ve gone searching for this in the past and have found a lot of quotes from the players to that effect..is there a chance Adams just sort of quietly..let them say it, rather than endorsing it? 

And ya the Comrie thing is just another funny example: the bets he makes that don’t work out almost always look like bad bets at the time

he aims low 

I heard him say something to the effect of "all in" for the playoffs and "not all about development".

I also heard him say he could not get a goalie better than the 3 he had, which may be true. 

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Comrie had like..half a seasons worth of starts in a decade or something at it was like..oh maybe this is The Guy

ya, man 

Ya man maybe he’s the Guy

Adams is probably learning that the rest of the league GMs are also pretty savvy.   I remind myself that he initially was not really qualified to be a GM, other than having the trust of the big boss that is.  No doubt he has brought in some good help and he has learned a ton.  I pick on him, but I must add that I think he is a smart guy overall.  I understand why TP likes him.  

Edited February 9 by Pimlach

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

I heard hi say something to the effect of "all in" for the playoffs and "not all about development".

I also heard him say he could not get a goalie better than the 3 he had, which may be true. 

Adams is probably learning that the rest of the league GMs are also pretty savvy.   I remind myself that he initially was not really qualified to be a GM, other than having the trust of the big boss that is.  No doubt he has brought in some good help and he has learned a ton.  I pick on him, but I must add that I think he is a smart guy overall.  I understand why TP likes him.  

I’ve never played goalie but I do play hockey regularly and I was available so no, Comrie wasn’t the best available 

[#freejame]

23 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I am ok with trading Skinner now, and even eating some salary.   I would get rid of the legacy of losing - KO, Girgs, Skinner - move on from them.  

Muel is a guy I have been unhappy with for most of the season.   Still, given his age and inexperience, I think he might someday be a very good player and worthy of his contract - I say this because I have ZERO confidence in DG and his staff to coach team defense.  Because of this, all of our defenders have to deal with a liability. 

My internal source tells me there is no "DG system" and that the next coach is going to have his work cut out for him.  

I always wonder how much of this is actually true. These guys have all probably spent at least ages 12-18 playing under different coaches and systems. Not only that, they’re all professional hockey players so they much grasp the game to some point. I’m not saying it should be plug and play with a new coach, but I don’t think the Sabres next hire will be some revolutionary Mike McDaniels hockey wonk. I just hope there is a next coach relatively soon. 

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I heard hi say something to the effect of "all in" for the playoffs and "not all about development".

I also heard him say he could not get a goalie better than the 3 he had, which may be true. 

Adams is probably learning that the rest of the league GMs are also pretty savvy.   I remind myself that he initially was not really qualified to be a GM, other than having the trust of the big boss that is.  No doubt he has brought in some good help and he has learned a ton.  I pick on him, but I must add that I think he is a smart guy overall.  I understand why TP likes him.  

well, if we can’t judge his overall intelligence by the results this far, I’d wager we never could. I’ll stick with hockey acumen, then, relative to what is required for his specific job: and in that case he’s significantly lacking thus far

prooof, as they say, is in the pudding. He can change the narrative, he merely needs to change the results

[thewookie1]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I’ve never played goalie but I do play hockey regularly and I was available so no, Comrie wasn’t the best available 

Best available UFA goalie that was still considered young and wasn't going to ask for an absurd contract that year.

[sabremike]

A toddler who touches a hot stove once learns not to do it again. The Sabres are a toddler that keeps touching a hot stove and never learns despite the very painful consequences.

[Pimlach]

Just now, #freejame said:

I always wonder how much of this is actually true. These guys have all probably spent at least ages 12-18 playing under different coaches and systems. Not only that, they’re all professional hockey players so they much grasp the game to some point. I’m not saying it should be plug and play with a new coach, but I don’t think the Sabres next hire will be some revolutionary Mike McDaniels hockey wonk. I just hope there is a next coach relatively soon. 

Exactly. 

When people talk about Peca leaving I am always happy for him.   He went to a good team, under a very good coach, that put in "the system" in one off season. Like every other NHL coach does.  Good to see him learn from a cup winning and proven coach.  

With DG he said he put the offense in first because its harder to play offense, then add the defense later.  We are seeing how that philosophy worked out this season. 

Maybe next season they will be juggernauts under DG and I will eat my Fedora?  

Or, there really is no system, as I am being told.  

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Best available UFA goalie that was still considered young and wasn't going to ask for an absurd contract that year.

Fair enough. You should have SEEN how much LEGO I was going to ask for 

[mjd1001]

I like Mitts, I want to see him here long term.  BUT if he is looking for a big contract ($7-$8m per season), I'm going to at least entertain shopping him.

Again, he's good, but he's a 15-20 goal scorer, 60-70 point guy.  Certainly that isn't nothing, but lets not make it out that right now he is an all-star in waiting. Best 2-way forward?  That may be true, but being the best 2-way forward on this team isn't saying much (he can be one of the best, or THE best and still not be good).  So again, If they annoucned they signed him to an extension tomorrow I'd be happy.  But if he is looking for a big time payday, I don't thik he is that 'big time' of a player and I would at least LISTEN to offers or do some light shopping.  He is RESTRICTED this offseason, no need to give him 7 years for $50+ million. The Sabres control this situation, make the best decision based on all information. "All information" probably means shopping him around and seeing what his value is.

Edited February 9 by mjd1001

[Pimlach]

4 minutes ago, sabremike said:

A toddler who touches a hot stove once learns not to do it again. The Sabres are Terry Pegula is a toddler that keeps touching a hot stove and never learns despite the very painful consequences.

FIFY 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, sabremike said:

A toddler who touches a hot stove once learns not to do it again. The Sabres are a toddler that keeps touching a hot stove and never learns despite the very painful consequences.

Like father, like fan 

[thewookie1]

For me trading Mitts only makes sense if you are targeting another specific center or defenseman. A good example I had was Eriksson Ek whom would make sense time and salary wise for the team and bring Selke level two-way play. Mitts would get to go home as well. 

I agree about trading Skinner; the issue being does he even want to leave? Additionally this would be a trade you are almost assured to take hit from both offensively and for at least the remaining years of his contract. Can we move Skinner somewhere besides Toronto and Detroit where he'd torch us like he does to Montreal? If we were to retain 3mil on his contract would more teams be interested in at very least being friendly with the trade return?

Effectively in my opinion we cannot afford to pay Mitts 7mil plus for 7 years as it effectively traps us at the end of next season due to Quinn and Peterka

[K-9]

Of course it all depends on what Mitts can fetch in a deal, but I’m a firm believer in the old axiom that you seldom get better trading your best players. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

Mittelstadt is too old to go through growing pains with the rest of his teammates.  Heaven forbid that we have a solid, experienced 2-way centre on the roster.

I have been seeing speculation on this front for weeks.  If true, the Adams must guarantee that he gets an equivalent or better centre first.  And it shows how enamoured he is with his prospects.

We extended Tage at a similar age?  Over the last 365 days Mitts has been the outright better player. What about Tuch? UPL is 4 months older? 

Also if a 25 year old player is "too old" to see this thing through in year 4 of this FO, WTF ARE WE DOING!!!!!!

Another couple of seasons of this and the Kevyn Adams era alone will make the big board for longest ever (active or not) playoff draughts in NHL history). Where does the runway end? This is bonkers. 

A 25 year old is too old to go through the growing pains with this team. Jesus Christ. This team is doomed. 

EDIT: To be clear, it seems like we may be on similar pages here in this not making a ton of sense. Without seeing the return, I highly dislike moving on from Mitts. I am more responding to comments I have seen here and elsewhere cosigning "we aren't supposed to be good"

Edited February 9 by Mango