Erik Johnson sends a clear message postgame "until we have a commitment to team defense, we won’t accomplish much"

[Curt]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

My fear is that since Adams didn't do enough in this off season we will burn yet another year. Rather than "win now" in the end they will end up saying some things like "learning experience". When the problems are so glaring and obvious it's frustrating not to see them addressed. 

I know that Adams/Granato have said things like that the past couple years, but they were pretty consistent throughout the whole season in those cases, stressing development/improvement.

This season they have shifted to stressing that they need to start winning.  They publicly set expectations.  I would hope that if they miss the playoffs, at the end of the season they don’t back track on that.  They would need to acknowledge it as a failure to meet expectations.

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is part of why I say "backwards". When have you seen this team exercise that sort of continual commitment? You have to build the team with these types of things first, not as an afterthought. 

This team?  As in this group of players?  Never, because they haven’t been together very long, they were purposely playing a transition offense heavy style, and they are very young.  I don’t think you can hold this group of players, coaches, and front office responsible for all the sins of the past 12 years.

I also disagree with your overall premise here.  I think that a kinda fast and loose, offense first team can definitely transition into being a more well rounded team with good defensive structure.  In fact, I think that is a quite common process of improvement.

NJ went through this kind of process. From 2021-22 through 2022-23.  Their offense came first and they made defensive improvements after.

Toronto too started off all offense, no defense several years ago and made big defensive improvements the past few years.

Tampa Bay definitely went through this too when their championship core was coming up around 2013-14.

Washington also famously did this over a period of a few years culminating in their cup win.

Im sure if I dug around more I could find other examples.  It may not be YOUR personal preferred way to develop a team, but I don’t think it’s automatically wrong or guarantees failure.

Interesting thing is that it looks like this defensive improvement sometimes goes hand in hand with a coaching change.  (Glances over at Granato, then quickly looks away)

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

But it has to start somewhere and there has to be a coaching commitment to it. It has to be. We should have been doing it since Granato got hired, but "offense first" was the mantra. Once a season starts it's too late. 

We did it backwards plain and simple. 

Most teams have success building from their goalie and out. A lot depends on whats there when you draft. 
 

I never really agreed with the “we can teach defense later” philosophy, defense is a skill of its own, and we need both to be successful.  

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I know that Adams/Granato have said things like that the past couple years, but they were pretty consistent throughout the whole season in those cases, stressing development/improvement.

This season they have shifted to stressing that they need to start winning.  They publicly set expectations.  I would hope that if they miss the playoffs, at the end of the season they don’t back track on that.  They would need to acknowledge it as a failure to meet expectations.

This team?  As in this group of players?  Never, because they haven’t been together very long, they were purposely playing a transition offense heavy style, and they are very young.  I don’t think you can hold this group of players, coaches, and front office responsible for all the sins of the past 12 years.

I also disagree with your overall premise here.  I think that a kinda fast and loose, offense first team can definitely transition into being a more well rounded team with good defensive structure.  In fact, I think that is a quite common process of improvement.

NJ went through this kind of process. From 2021-22 through 2022-23.  Their offense came first and they made defensive improvements after.

Toronto too started off all offense, no defense several years ago and made big defensive improvements the past few years.

Tampa Bay definitely went through this too when their championship core was coming up around 2013-14.

Washington also famously did this over a period of a few years culminating in their cup win.

Im sure if I dug around more I could find other examples.  It may not be YOUR personal preferred way to develop a team, but I don’t think it’s automatically wrong or guarantees failure.

Interesting thing is that it looks like this defensive improvement sometimes goes hand in hand with a coaching change.  (Glances over at Granato, then quickly looks away)

I'm not going to go over the development of all the listed teams and such as it would take too long and not really get us anywhere. I would just say the Leafs are a perfect example of how you can get the offense top level and fail miserably because you built it wrong from the start. I don't want to follow their lead. It'll just lead to a whole new frustration if and when we ever do make it to the playoffs. Washington is a perfect example of how an offensive team can be taught to play team D but it took a certain coach to do that didn't it. So, to the bolded sentences

if that's true, and not just rhetoric, how come they haven't addressed it prior to the season starting? How can me and others here see it and now Johnson say it publicly now when it should already have been said a long time ago and certainly before this training camp. Granato thinks this part is easier, well lets get to it then. Now. Before it's too late. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

Most teams have success building from their goalie and out. A lot depends on whats there when you draft. 
 

I never really agreed with the “we can teach defense later” philosophy, defense is a skill of its own, and we need both to be successful.  

Exactly, and so we did it backwards.  We do have enough prospects to make the necessary changes but I don't see the will or desire to do that. This team seems quite content to let this take a decade. 

 

[Mango]

11 hours ago, Thorny said:

It’s a race, and it’s an interesting calculation, I think, as well: how quickly can they sort out the D to a reasonable level, and, particularly given the fact the roster hasn’t changed: how much offence relative to last year ends up getting sacrificed in pursuit of said D. Particularly relative to all the career years we saw last year. And when comparing and contrasting the two, is it a zero sum game, or does it allow for a net gain to the tune of bridging the gap we needed to, to make the playoffs?

pretty fascinating 

It’s early so let me start there. 

But as I’ve posted post Calgary game, I’m starting to wonder if a lot of this is personnel not system. 

By that I mean, I think we have a core that plays fast offensive hockey. I don’t know that we need to change that so much as we need to do a better job filling in the gaps. 

I think we have to accept that even though they’re big Cozens and Thompson aren’t great two way players. And instead of having them shift their game, we need to help support their lines with more/better power forwards.

The defense needs a younger version of EJ to play up with Power. If Clifton can figure it out as the season progresses, that third line will be fine. Go move Kulich, Rosen, and RJ. Bring in guys like Mieir and/or Chychrun. (Just throwing out last years names)

We don’t need to change everybody’s game. They need to improve, sure. But they need help, not a makeover. We just need better supporting players for our stars. Last year we had a scoring line, a kid/prospect line, a middling line, and a defensive line. Instead of trying to make Thompson a different player just give him more help on the wing. Greenway - Cozens - Thompson was a great line, injured or not. 

 

[Mango]

20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Exactly, and so we did it backwards.  We do have enough prospects to make the necessary changes but I don't see the will or desire to do that. This team seems quite content to let this take a decade. 

 

The crazy part is that as this roster starts to mature and come together, I don’t get the math. 

We don’t sign any high priced FA because “value” and “saving money to sign our own”. But we have a core signed for another 7 years. WTF are we going to do when Benson, Kulich, Savoie, Rosen, Quinn, and JJP  etc. come do?

Our top line is more or less set. We’ve been committed to letting the kid line struggle in the name of development. Mitts needs to stay, none of those guys fit Greenway; and Benson is clearly the leader of the prospect pack right now.

Our entire 4th line are FA next year, and zero prospects fit there/are ready?

We either have to start to move those guys out, or we have to start to think about moving some other more established players for different established players. Otherwise we will either just let them walk or we’ll just recycle dealing with struggling kids for the sake of the future. 

[PerreaultForever]

44 minutes ago, Mango said:

The crazy part is that as this roster starts to mature and come together, I don’t get the math. 

We don’t sign any high priced FA because “value” and “saving money to sign our own”. But we have a core signed for another 7 years. WTF are we going to do when Benson, Kulich, Savoie, Rosen, Quinn, and JJP  etc. come do?

Our top line is more or less set. We’ve been committed to letting the kid line struggle in the name of development. Mitts needs to stay, none of those guys fit Greenway; and Benson is clearly the leader of the prospect pack right now.

Our entire 4th line are FA next year, and zero prospects fit there/are ready?

We either have to start to move those guys out, or we have to start to think about moving some other more established players for different established players. Otherwise we will either just let them walk or we’ll just recycle dealing with struggling kids for the sake of the future. 

Well that's part of it isn't it. If you don't start to win with your young core your window closes fast. Then you are forced to move guys out and the squeeze might not get you top value. What you get for the money you spend matters a lot obviously. There is a window though and it's a good problem to have so that's really not my main concern. For me it's whether or not these players can and will commit to playing defense and if they won't or can't will we move on from them and get players that will before it's too late. This is all on coaching imo.

To me, you take a guy like Benson and you say hey kid, you've got some mad offensive skills, learn to play D and you'll be an NHL star rather then hey kid, go score some goals and have some fun, we'll think about teaching you some D later on some time down the road. You get the idea. I am a broken record. 

[Shoot da Puck]

To many player want to shoot da puck

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Most teams have success building from their goalie and out. A lot depends on whats there when you draft. 
 

I never really agreed with the “we can teach defense later” philosophy, defense is a skill of its own, and we need both to be successful.  

The problem Buffalo has right now is in the offensive zone. 

[Believer]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

This is all on coaching imo.

EJ sees it… EJ said it… Publicly… “Mindset”… by all 5 players on the ice… Every shift.

It’s not complicated… Granato, Girardi, and Wilford are not getting the “defensive mindset” message across to our forwards…

We have the horses… It’s the trainers who need some doping…

As for offense, it is confounding Granato bemoans the excessive passing and lack of shooting by his team…

Seems like another “Mindset” issue to me, Coach… Have to assume you are telling them to shoot… Time for action…

Appears Granato is taking action in practice anyway… Breaking up the lines… 

Start taking minutes away from the hardheads… Reward guys who shoot and rush the net to create chaos…

Start coaching behind the bench with more passion… and watch the players start playing with more passion.

 

 

 

[Curt]

6 hours ago, Mango said:

It’s early so let me start there. 

But as I’ve posted post Calgary game, I’m starting to wonder if a lot of this is personnel not system. 

By that I mean, I think we have a core that plays fast offensive hockey. I don’t know that we need to change that so much as we need to do a better job filling in the gaps. 

I think we have to accept that even though they’re big Cozens and Thompson aren’t great two way players. And instead of having them shift their game, we need to help support their lines with more/better power forwards.

The defense needs a younger version of EJ to play up with Power. If Clifton can figure it out as the season progresses, that third line will be fine. Go move Kulich, Rosen, and RJ. Bring in guys like Mieir and/or Chychrun. (Just throwing out last years names)

We don’t need to change everybody’s game. They need to improve, sure. But they need help, not a makeover. We just need better supporting players for our stars. Last year we had a scoring line, a kid/prospect line, a middling line, and a defensive line. Instead of trying to make Thompson a different player just give him more help on the wing. Greenway - Cozens - Thompson was a great line, injured or not. 

 

Please do not call Ryan Johnson RJ.  It’s just way too soon.

[French Collection]

9 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Most teams have success building from their goalie and out. A lot depends on whats there when you draft. 
 

I never really agreed with the “we can teach defense later” philosophy, defense is a skill of its own, and we need both to be successful.  

Recent Cup winners like Vegas, Colorado and St Louis used average goalies to get to the top. I think Levi can get to the upper tier of goaltending but he is having to learn under fire in the NHL.

You are right that defense needs to be learned. Most young players come with good fundamentals like skating, shooting and stick handling but need to be taught positioning and the details of defense in order to get to the next level.

Teams draft for skill first and then teach defense. You don’t draft grinders, stay at home D and PK specialists in the first round and then try and teach them to score.

This team has a ton of scoring power in the lineup and the pipeline. They need to commit to team defense, finding that balance, or move some talent for more experienced two way players.

[SabresVet]

43 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Recent Cup winners like Vegas, Colorado and St Louis used average goalies to get to the top. I think Levi can get to the upper tier of goaltending but he is having to learn under fire in the NHL.

It's concerning that they'll prominently feature young goalies like Levi and UPL behind a below-average team defense.  For a team that talks about development (and rightly so) better team defense would have been something I'd expect KA and DG would have been emphasizing more knowing their offense can score. 

[Archie Lee]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem Buffalo has right now is in the offensive zone. 

I think this is oversimplifying things. The message E. Johnson was trying to send this week is that the offense is going to be there and we will win games by out scoring the opposition. But, if we want to take the step from being a .500ish team that flirts with the playoffs to being a true playoff team and contender, then we will need to play better defensively so that when the offense dries up for a spell, as it currently has, we  can win low scoring games with some consistency. This will, obviously, also serve us well once we are in the playoffs. 
 

I agree with you that if our offense was clicking right now we could be 3-1 and nobody is panicking. That would not change the fact though, that ultimately we need to be a better defensive team. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Archie Lee

[#freejame]

12 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

I think this is oversimplifying things. The message E. Johnson was trying to send this week is that the offense is going to be there and we will win games by out scoring the opposition. But, if we want to take the step from being a .500ish team that flirts with the playoffs to being a true playoff team and contender, then we will need to play better defensively so that when the offense dries up for a spell, as it currently has, we  can win low scoring games with some consistency. This will, obviously, also serve us well once we are in the playoffs. 
 

I agree with you that if our offense was clicking right now we could be 3-1 and nobody is panicking. That would not change the fact though, that ultimately we need to be a better defensive team. 

This board would be x10 worse if the only change to this season was our record to 3-1. It would be shades of 5(?) years ago when we went on our early run.  

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, French Collection said:

Recent Cup winners like Vegas, Colorado and St Louis used average goalies to get to the top. I think Levi can get to the upper tier of goaltending but he is having to learn under fire in the NHL.

You are right that defense needs to be learned. Most young players come with good fundamentals like skating, shooting and stick handling but need to be taught positioning and the details of defense in order to get to the next level.

Teams draft for skill first and then teach defense. You don’t draft grinders, stay at home D and PK specialists in the first round and then try and teach them to score.

This team has a ton of scoring power in the lineup and the pipeline. They need to commit to team defense, finding that balance, or move some talent for more experienced two way players.

St Louis won in part because Binington came our of nowhere and stood in his head.  He was the key piece 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem Buffalo has right now is in the offensive zone. 

I agree. This team is not scoring goals.  I posted this in a different thread, but your top 5 goal scorers last year accounted for  177 goals last season (2.15 per GAME). This year those same guys have 3 goals in 4 games (0.75 per game).  That is a big difference.  

Sure, this team makes mistakes in their own end, might get out-hit, lets in a few bad goals, but the drop off in scoring from your top guys from last year to this year (small sample size of course but we ARE talking about the first 4 games) is the main issue.

Its not as if scoring is down across the league. There are currently 114 players who are averaging a point-per game this early in the season. Zero of them are Sabres forwards, the only one they have is Dahlin.

Again, small sample size, this can change quickly, but that is exactly what has to happen.

[Thorny]

10 hours ago, Mango said:

It’s early so let me start there. 

But as I’ve posted post Calgary game, I’m starting to wonder if a lot of this is personnel not system. 

By that I mean, I think we have a core that plays fast offensive hockey. I don’t know that we need to change that so much as we need to do a better job filling in the gaps. 

I think we have to accept that even though they’re big Cozens and Thompson aren’t great two way players. And instead of having them shift their game, we need to help support their lines with more/better power forwards.

The defense needs a younger version of EJ to play up with Power. If Clifton can figure it out as the season progresses, that third line will be fine. Go move Kulich, Rosen, and RJ. Bring in guys like Mieir and/or Chychrun. (Just throwing out last years names)

We don’t need to change everybody’s game. They need to improve, sure. But they need help, not a makeover. We just need better supporting players for our stars. Last year we had a scoring line, a kid/prospect line, a middling line, and a defensive line. Instead of trying to make Thompson a different player just give him more help on the wing. Greenway - Cozens - Thompson was a great line, injured or not. 

 

Is Cozens really that bad 2 way or just struggling overall? I’ve always seen him as a pretty good 2 way guy but I could be way off the mark 

[Thorny]

40 minutes ago, #freejame said:

This board would be x10 worse if the only change to this season was our record to 3-1. It would be shades of 5(?) years ago when we went on our early run.  

I always chuckle when people reference that run in a negative connotation haha

It was so much fun! A brief reprieve in the desert. I’ll take another one and worry about the rest later. I like wins 

I take your meaning relative to what came after but…still

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Is Cozens really that bad 2 way or just struggling overall? I’ve always seen him as a pretty good 2 way guy but I could be way off the mark 

You already know the answer.  Cozens is a very good two way player that will one day be a great two way player.  
 

He had a slow start playing with VO in the first 2 games.   He had the GWG in our only win.  He had 2 more points and was +2 against Calgary. 
 

The “Cozens isn’t good” narrative is wrong.  You can see he is getting more in a grove in the last 2 games.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Is Cozens really that bad 2 way or just struggling overall? I’ve always seen him as a pretty good 2 way guy but I could be way off the mark 

I think he is fine.  Not great or awful.  He has the physical tools and the will.  It’s just that he is a big transition offense guy, so it can probably be tough to find the balance between getting back deep to help and finding opportunities to get out on the rush.  Plus he is still pretty young, so I expect him to keep improving in this area as he gets older.

[#freejame]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

I always chuckle when people reference that run in a negative connotation haha

It was so much fun! A brief reprieve in the desert. I’ll take another one and worry about the rest later. I like wins 

I take your meaning relative to what came after but…still

Oh yeah, I had an absolute blast. But there were people then murmuring about the underlying numbers and being negative Nancy’s about the overtime wins. There’s many more now inclined to believe in mirages now. 

[Taro T]

On 10/20/2023 at 10:43 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

I was thinking Benson to bumper on PP1 with Skinner to PP2.  

That was my preference heading into the season.  Never going to happen as long as Granato is the coach.  Skinner won't be removed from the top PP unit regardless.

[Taro T]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem Buffalo has right now is in the offensive zone. 

Well, there, and in their own end at 5v5.

Expecting they'll figure it out.  But, there isn't a lot right now to hang one's hat to demonstrate why that'd be more than simply hope.  That can start to be remedied tonight.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Believer said:

EJ sees it… EJ said it… Publicly… “Mindset”… by all 5 players on the ice… Every shift.

It’s not complicated… Granato, Girardi, and Wilford are not getting the “defensive mindset” message across to our forwards…

We have the horses… It’s the trainers who need some doping…

As for offense, it is confounding Granato bemoans the excessive passing and lack of shooting by his team…

Seems like another “Mindset” issue to me, Coach… Have to assume you are telling them to shoot… Time for action…

Appears Granato is taking action in practice anyway… Breaking up the lines… 

Start taking minutes away from the hardheads… Reward guys who shoot and rush the net to create chaos…

Start coaching behind the bench with more passion… and watch the players start playing with more passion.

 

 

 

That net rush as you call it is the missing part. When we do shoot we still take way too many shots that are easy picking for the goalies. Sure, guys like Tage sometimes pick a corner and score but most of the time it just leads to the end of the rush or a possession turnover as the goalie can see it and stop it easily. We need more people willing to pay the price in the dirty areas. We have the size in most cases, but we need to use it.