Backup goaltending: what do we really think about the situation in the crease?

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

VO is just this month's forward scapegoat.  Mitts was the scapegoat last year and VO is his replacement.  Some of the criticism leveled at Mitts was warranted, but the majority was off the deep end.  This time it's VO.  Again some of the criticism is warranted and he has acknowledged that himself and said he is going to work on it.  in the second half of the season before last, VO was probably our best forward.  I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  How many 28-goal scorers are lying around anyway? (He was tied for 56th in goals last year and his 21 Even goals were tied for 48th.)  That production is top-line goal-scoring and he is likely on the Sabres 3rd line.  

No he wasn't. That's just a strange re-write of history to suggest on a team with Tuch, Tage, and Skinner that VO was ever the best forward. 

And yes, I understand which season you're referring too. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No he wasn't. That's just a strange re-write of history to suggest on a team with Tuch, Tage, and Skinner that VO was ever the best forward. 

And yes, I understand which season you're referring too. 

Are you completely dismissing the possibility of VO of shoring up his game and becoming a contributor, even if it is for a lower line? I'm not suggesting that he should he be the replacement player for Quinn. But because of his injury it does give VO an opportunity to play. Hopefully he can expand his game beyond being just a shooter. Right now, I'm not ruling him out as many are doing. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No he wasn't. That's just a strange re-write of history to suggest on a team with Tuch, Tage, and Skinner that VO was ever the best forward. 

And yes, I understand which season you're referring too. 

So say-ith the man who wanted to toss Mitts under the bus and now wants Vo burned at the stake.

The point is we have seen good hockey from Vo in the recent past and he is perfectly capable of playing good hockey again.  

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So say-ith the man who wanted to toss Mitts under the bus and now wants Vo burned at the stake.

The point is we have seen good hockey from Vo in the recent past and he is perfectly capable of playing good hockey again.  

I think you are misremembering LGRs stance re: Mitts.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I think you are misremembering LGRs stance re: Mitts.

I don't think so, but anything is possible.  

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Are you completely dismissing the possibility of VO of shoring up his game and becoming a contributor, even if it is for a lower line? I'm not suggesting that he should he be the replacement player for Quinn. But because of his injury it does give VO an opportunity to play. Hopefully he can expand his game beyond being just a shooter. Right now, I'm not ruling him out as many are doing. 

VO hasn't really evolved, he just plays on a better team. His finishing is great, but he's terrible defensively. He's not good at taking the puck places and he can't really manipulate players to open lanes. He's weak on the walls and easily knocked off pucks. He's about to be 28 and this will be his 5th full season, so unless he's doing something drastically different, you're getting a 1 dimensional forward with a great shot. I'd move on from him. 

53 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

So say-ith the man who wanted to toss Mitts under the bus and now wants Vo burned at the stake.

The point is we have seen good hockey from Vo in the recent past and he is perfectly capable of playing good hockey again.  

When? We've seen the same hockey from VO every year. Mitts evolved and is 4 years younger, Vo literally dragged Mitts into the gutter for 20 games last season. 

[LGR4GM]

@GASabresIUFAN it still does not take away from the fact VO has never come close to being the best forward on this team. That was my original comment and I stand by it. You said he was 2 years ago. I dispute that is a re-write of the first Granato season and not what actually happened. 

I'll add 1 thing. VO plays the type of game that makes him far less valuable in the playoffs. He's a perimeter shooter.

Edited July 15, 2023 by LGR4GM

[Porous Five Hole]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

VO hasn't really evolved, he just plays on a better team. His finishing is great, but he's terrible defensively. He's not good at taking the puck places and he can't really manipulate players to open lanes. He's weak on the walls and easily knocked off pucks. He's about to be 28 and this will be his 5th full season, so unless he's doing something drastically different, you're getting a 1 dimensional forward with a great shot. I'd move on from him. 

When? We've seen the same hockey from VO every year. Mitts evolved and is 4 years younger, Vo literally dragged Mitts into the gutter for 20 games last season. 

To add to your point, it wasn’t just Mitts.  
Listening to Sabres Live this week, they more or less shared why VO is untradeable. 
Every single player he shared the ice with in 22-23 had their Corsi figure tank while playing with VO. And each player’s Corsi shot right back up as soon as VO went to another line/the press box. 

I’m beginning to wonder if VO will have a roster spot. 

[Flashsabre]

VO is like Liam Neeson, he has a very specific set of skills.

I think we can all agree what type of player he is. 28 goal scorers (30 if he wasn’t benched for the other parts of his game) that can finish on the PP do have value around the league. There are teams that need finishers badly. As part of a package VO can easily be moved.

Calgary are desperate for scoring wingers.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

VO is like Liam Neeson, he has a very specific set of skills.

I think we can all agree what type of player he is. 28 goal scorers (30 if he wasn’t benched for the other parts of his game) that can finish on the PP do have value around the league. There are teams that need finishers badly. As part of a package VO can easily be moved.

Calgary are desperate for scoring wingers.

Vo is not a 30g scorer. He's a 25g 15a guy. That's what he is. 

[LGR4GM]

Vo is a great 7th round pick and a useful player to some teams 3rd or maybe 2nd line... but not this team. Not how it's constructed and the forward depth it has. If vo stays this year, that's fine with me. After that, I'm sorry but we need to move on. 

[Archie Lee]

VO was 7th among forwards in time on ice last year.  His corsi/fenwick stats were similar to players like Peterka, Cozens, Jost.  There were stretches of time last year, despite what some will say, where he was one of our better forwards.  He has weaknesses in his game and there are stretches where he can be a liability.  It is clear the team knows this and indications are that VO understands this and is committed to trying to improve in those areas and, by extension, become a more consistent player. Whether he can at 27-28 is a fair question.  

I thought he would be traded this offseason. I'm not going to be upset though if we start the season with a 28 goal scorer who is a good teammate and in his contract year, in our middle-six.  I would not be shocked if VO ends up as the 13th forward many nights.  Likewise I would not be shocked if he plays with Cozens and Mitts and scores 35.  

Also, I'm fine with starting the year with any two of Levi, Comrie and UPL as our goalies.

 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

VO hasn't really evolved, he just plays on a better team. His finishing is great, but he's terrible defensively. He's not good at taking the puck places and he can't really manipulate players to open lanes. He's weak on the walls and easily knocked off pucks. He's about to be 28 and this will be his 5th full season, so unless he's doing something drastically different, you're getting a 1 dimensional forward with a great shot. I'd move on from him. 

. 

VO is going to compete for a job like many of the other players. As you well know most of the positions are already filled. If he doesn't elevate his game, he won't get much playing time, let alone earn a roster spot. If he does, and surprises us, he will help the team. If Quinn wasn't hurt I could understand why there would be a lack of tolerance/patience for him taking a roster spot. Why not wait to see what he does in camp before closing the proverbial door on him? And as you well know, the majority here were adamant that Mitts would never succeed here. They were wrong. 

[LGR4GM]

12 minutes ago, JohnC said:

VO is going to compete for a job like many of the other players. As you well know most of the positions are already filled. If he doesn't elevate his game, he won't get much playing time, let alone earn a roster spot. If he does, and surprises us, he will help the team. If Quinn wasn't hurt I could understand why there would be a lack of tolerance/patience for him taking a roster spot. Why not wait to see what he does in camp before closing the proverbial door on him? And as you well know, the majority here were adamant that Mitts would never succeed here. They were wrong. 

Again, the original comment was that 2 years ago olofsson was our best forward and we somehow forgot. He was not. Idc if he makes the team, but the team itself will be beyond him within a year if they aren't already. 

[Thorner]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

VO hasn't really evolved, he just plays on a better team. His finishing is great, but he's terrible defensively. He's not good at taking the puck places and he can't really manipulate players to open lanes. He's weak on the walls and easily knocked off pucks. He's about to be 28 and this will be his 5th full season, so unless he's doing something drastically different, you're getting a 1 dimensional forward with a great shot. I'd move on from him. 

When? We've seen the same hockey from VO every year. Mitts evolved and is 4 years younger, Vo literally dragged Mitts into the gutter for 20 games last season. 

He can honestly pass too if given the proper C. We saw the kind of game Eichel was able to drag out of him 

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

VO hasn't really evolved, he just plays on a better team. His finishing is great, but he's terrible defensively. He's not good at taking the puck places and he can't really manipulate players to open lanes. He's weak on the walls and easily knocked off pucks. He's about to be 28 and this will be his 5th full season, so unless he's doing something drastically different, you're getting a 1 dimensional forward with a great shot. I'd move on from him. 

When? We've seen the same hockey from VO every year. Mitts evolved and is 4 years younger, Vo literally dragged Mitts into the gutter for 20 games last season. 

He’s fine beside an elite C. Which isn’t saying much for him, I guess. As the lineup currently stands I really don’t like his fit on L3

[Thorner]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Vo is not a 30g scorer. He's a 25g 15a guy. That's what he is. 

He’s not a 15 assist guy lol. VO’s goal scoring is somehow overrated and his assist contribution continuously underrated. He’s averaged 21 assists per season the last 4 seasons and that’s *not* a per game mark. Per 82 game frame, VO has averaged 26 assists per over the last 4 seasons 

You have the goals pretty much spot on, he’s averaged 26 per 82 over the last 4. So, VO averages 52 points over 82 his last 4 seasons. It’s not nothing. If he’s a one trick pony, and he arguably is, it’s his full offensive game, though, as the one trick 

I just think 25/25 paints a more fair, accurate picture, his drop off this past season (largely due to usage imo) notwithstanding. Guarantee if KA is shopping him, he’s shopping what he’s calling a “50 point player” in a favourable situation 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Thorny

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Again, the original comment was that 2 years ago olofsson was our best forward and we somehow forgot. He was not. Idc if he makes the team, but the team itself will be beyond him within a year if they aren't already. 

You may be right that in a year or so other players will be ready to replace him. But that doesn't mean that in this upcoming season he can't be a contributor. I simply don't understand why you and others are so adamant that he can't be a contributor this season. When training camp begins he will have an opportunity to compete for a roster spot and role. I just don't understand this automatic dismissal of a player who has shown an ability to score goals. 

[Thorner]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

You may be right that in a year or so other players will be ready to replace him. But that doesn't mean that in this upcoming season he can't be a contributor. I simply don't understand why you and others are so adamant that he can't be a contributor this season. When training camp begins he will have an opportunity to compete for a roster spot and role. I just don't understand this automatic dismissal of a player who has shown an ability to score goals. 

It’s pretty unfortunate that to win a spot he has to merely beat out...a bunch of guys who’ve never played in the NHL before 

[Thorner]

I’m still getting used to the fact we no longer care about assembling a gauntlet of competition through which the cream rises to the top, that nowadays it’s more so about doing the exact opposite: holding down spots on the roster “unblocked”, instead, free of capable vets who provide talent obstacles for the kids, the spots instead dangled in front of the youth like carrots. Not arguing the merits of one strategy vs the other but it’s certainly notable 

That is to say, if VO gets a spot as a vet it’s literally by default, and if a rookie gets the spot instead, they’ve beaten out no one but other rookies, and VO

Edited July 15, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

31 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You may be right that in a year or so other players will be ready to replace him. But that doesn't mean that in this upcoming season he can't be a contributor. I simply don't understand why you and others are so adamant that he can't be a contributor this season. When training camp begins he will have an opportunity to compete for a roster spot and role. I just don't understand this automatic dismissal of a player who has shown an ability to score goals. 

You've been here a bit, I'm not being very adamant about vo other than saying he's 100% not a top 6 forward. 

[LGR4GM]

47 minutes ago, Thorny said:

He’s not a 15 assist guy lol. VO’s goal scoring is somehow overrated and his assist contribution continuously underrated. He’s averaged 21 assists per season the last 4 seasons and that’s *not* a per game mark. Per 82 game frame, VO has averaged 26 assists per over the last 4 seasons 

You have the goals pretty much spot on, he’s averaged 26 per 82 over the last 4. So, VO averages 52 points over 82 his last 4 seasons. It’s not nothing. If he’s a one trick pony, and he arguably is, it’s his full offensive game, though, as the one trick 

I just think 25/25 paints a more fair, accurate picture, his drop off this past season (largely due to usage imo) notwithstanding. Guarantee if KA is shopping him, he’s shopping what he’s calling a “50 point player” in a favourable situation 

He's never going to play 82 games. 25/25 isn't fair impo. Maybe 22/20 is but that's about where I'll go. He's never once reached 50 pts and 40 pts is his most likely total. Also he outshot his career sh% by over 4% last season, I don't see it happening again because he doesn't get to high danger areas enough. 

[LGR4GM]

30 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I’m still getting used to the fact we no longer care about assembling a gauntlet of competition through which the cream rises to the top, that nowadays it’s more so about doing the exact opposite: holding down spots on the roster “unblocked”, instead, free of capable vets who provide talent obstacles for the kids, the spots instead dangled in front of the youth like carrots. Not arguing the merits of one strategy vs the other but it’s certainly notable 

That is to say, if VO gets a spot as a vet it’s literally by default, and if a rookie gets the spot instead, they’ve beaten out no one but other rookies, and VO

There's a lot of talent in Buffalo to beat out. What vet would we sign to block anyone? The top 6 is practically written in stone. The 3rd line has Krebs and Greenway and I guess VO on it so that's 3 nhl players. Everyone younger than Owen Power is effectively blocked from this roster unless they beat a vet.

[Dr. Who]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He's never going to play 82 games. 25/25 isn't fair impo. Maybe 22/20 is but that's about where I'll go. He's never once reached 50 pts and 40 pts is his most likely total. Also he outshot his career sh% by over 4% last season, I don't see it happening again because he doesn't get to high danger areas enough. 

Yes, but KA is going to sell him as a 50 point player. I thought that was the point, but even if it isn't, that should be the take away. Personally, I hope VO is still part of a package that brings back a veteran goalie. That concerns me way more than where we're going to find goals.

[Thorner]

15 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's a lot of talent in Buffalo to beat out. What vet would we sign to block anyone? The top 6 is practically written in stone. The 3rd line has Krebs and Greenway and I guess VO on it so that's 3 nhl players. Everyone younger than Owen Power is effectively blocked from this roster unless they beat a vet.

Well, it’s only July and our nhl roster already has one “and I guess VO” pencilled in, and next man up is a rookie full stop, if a vet simply gets hurt, never mind beat out. After the top 6, our guys are:

Krebs, Olofsson, Greenway, Okposo, Girgensons, Jost, Rousek, Kulich, etc

It certainly doesn’t read like lightning after you get past Casey/Cozens/JJP

ymmv

[Thorner]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yes, but KA is going to sell him as a 50 point player. I thought that was the point, but even if it isn't, that should be the take away. Personally, I hope VO is still part of a package that brings back a veteran goalie. That concerns me way more than where we're going to find goals.

Was exactly the point. The fact of the matter, on a per 82 game basis he’s averaged over 50 the past 4 years. Using per game metrics isn’t exactly unusual. You could reasonably argue he has at least a fairly conceivable shot at 50 upon acquiring him, when the main obstacle has been health and not performance. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Thorny