Who has more trade value: Jack or Sam?

[Thorny]

You basically have to hope Jack really is a total headcase nut job because I don't see any other way their evaluation make sense. Considering the significant and compelling smoke we've see regarding Adams' willingness to move Jack for quite some time, for me, ruling out the possibility this is injury motivated, even if they got lucky and Jack broke after the trade, rendering any return a solid one, basing the entire direction of your team around the notion Jack had to be moved for "culture" reasons doesn't bode well for KA having any kind of competence needed to see this through in a positive way, if he's missed the boat on this key-above-all evaluation. 

Regardless of the future of Jack's health situation, Adams simply has to be right, here, about the need to move him. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Thorny

[PASabreFan]

Eichel, I guess. But one is very likely overrated and the other very likely underrated, so the difference is smaller than most think. And I suspect other GMs know this, and the heads exploding after Eichel is traded is predictable.

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

Eichel, I guess. But one is very likely overrated and the other very likely underrated, so the difference is smaller than most think. And I suspect other GMs know this, and the heads exploding after Eichel is traded is predictable.

Reinhart isn't underrated anymore, read the thread

He's a topped out at 50-55 point player with net neutral at best defensive ability yet somehow now he's ROR, one of the best players in hockey. 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Buffalonill said:

The fact we're trading our franchise player is just so unreal to me so depressing.

 

I find it refreshing, invigorating and a sign of hope.  I don’t think Jack was ever going to be the hero we wanted.  He’s the hero we deserved.  He tried to play the role but i never got the feeling his heart was in it. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

"he's not ROR today"  "He's no where near ROR when we acquired him" etc.. Frankly I don't give two craps what he is today.  I care for comparison purposes what he was when TM gave up the farm to get him and how he compares at a similar age.  Did anyone look up the stats? I did and they are very similar.

When acquired by Buffalo, ROR had played 427 games for the Avs with 90 goals and 156a for 246 pts (.21g/gp & .576 pt/gp) for about 47 pts a season.  

His last 3 years in Colo he played 191gms with 51g 88a for 139 pts (.267 g/gp & .727 pts/gp) for nearly 60 points for a full season.

Remember folks ROR didn't break out until he went to Stl during his 27 year old campaign when he had 77 pts in 82 games

His 3 years in Buffalo were 224 gms 65g 111a for 176 pts (.29 g/gp & .79 pts/gp) for about 64 pts over a full season. 

Samson's career in Buffalo so far

454 gms 134g 161a for 295 pts (.295 g/gp & .65 pts/gp) for about 53 pts over a full season

His last 3 years 205g 69g 86a 155 pts (.337 g/gp & .756 pts/gp) or about 62 pts over a full season.

Over his career he has averaged about 18 per night PT and around 20 over the last 2 years.  ROR averaged 18:26 in Colorado and 21 in Buffalo.

You can argue ROR is a better all-around player and I'd agree, but the offensive stats are very similar and Samson is still only 25. 

Now that Samson has moved back to center (where he belongs) I think the comparison is even strong.  Truthfully Samson is a much better goal scorer and more accurate shooter.  ROR is better defensively and obviously in the FO circle, but Sam make great strides there this past season.

 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, inkman said:

I find it refreshing, invigorating and a sign of hope.  I don’t think Jack was ever going to be the hero we wanted.  He’s the hero we deserved.  He tried to play the role but i never got the feeling his heart was in it. 

Until getting injured late in the shortened season he was on pace for over 100 points playing on a team that in general couldn't score in (choose your favorite brothel & blow analogy to go here).  How was that a sign his heart was never really into it?

This next statement is not directed at you, but merely is a general comment:  it tends to get annoying to have so many people base their opinion of Eichel on his play & perceived attitude upon how he handled playing through multiple injuries on a squad where the 2C checked out by the 3rd period of the 2nd game & where the guy that started in net on opening night is BARELY still NHL quality.

Sorry.  /rant

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Until getting injured late in the shortened season he was on pace for over 100 points playing on a team that in general couldn't score in (choose your favorite brothel & blow analogy to go here).  How was that a sign his heart was never really into it?

This next statement is not directed at you, but merely is a general comment:  it tends to get annoying to have so many people base their opinion of Eichel on his play & perceived attitude upon how he handled playing through multiple injuries on a squad where the 2C checked out by the 3rd period of the 2nd game & where the guy that started in net on opening night is BARELY still NHL quality.

Sorry.  /rant

Jack Eichel has been the best Sabres player for years with almost no help and now he's being vilified. 

 

[Doohickie]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I think any GM would be insane to make the trade without getting a medical clearance of some sort from their team doctors as a condition. 

We're making blind assumptions about the nature, extent, and prognosis of Jack's injury. 

For all we know it's healed and not a concern.  Or it's still full-blown herniated.  Both sides have been quiet about it since.... before the end of his "let's do nothing and evaluate" period that ended almost 4 weeks ago.  So we really don't know much, if any, his injury affects his trade value.  The GMs will know when making their transaction (or at least know more than us).

If there's still significant doubt, I think Jack may not get traded until KA can get more for him.  The specter of the ROR trade looms large and I don't see KA trading Jack unless he's getting at least one proven talent or mature high-end prospect (along with other fillers) back.

[Doohickie]

5 hours ago, sabrefanday1 said:

maybe Sam is not as discontented as some think

I'm quite sure KA will offer Sam a longish term contract.  I could see the compromise being that Sam won't sign for more than 3 or even 2 years.  *IF* Jack is off the books, they could probably offer Sam enough to keep him, for now.  Whether he stays beyond that will be driven by team performance and his desire to move west.

[PerreaultForever]

25 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

We're making blind assumptions about the nature, extent, and prognosis of Jack's injury. 

For all we know it's healed and not a concern.  Or it's still full-blown herniated.  Both sides have been quiet about it since.... before the end of his "let's do nothing and evaluate" period that ended almost 4 weeks ago.  So we really don't know much, if any, his injury affects his trade value.  The GMs will know when making their transaction (or at least know more than us).

Absolutely. My hope (of the quiet) is that they are letting other teams see medical reports or examine him etc. behind the scenes. But it's all speculation and we will wait for the spin on whatever it is that happens or doesn't. 

[dudacek]

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

Reinhart and ROR are not comparable defensively. ROR is a selke nominated defensive forward. This thread is a bit bonkers, no offense 

Never mind the fact ROR developed into a point a game guy. Don't see that from Sam. 

 

5 hours ago, Thorny said:

Reinhart isn't underrated anymore, read the thread

He's a topped out at 50-55 point player with net neutral at best defensive ability yet somehow now he's ROR, one of the best players in hockey. 

Don’t let the shortened season fool you: Accounting for that Sam’s past three years are 65, 59 and 60, if I remember the math right.

ROR’s at the same age were very similar. It took him 10 years to break 64 points.

Like Sam, ROR was also frequently used on the wing prior to being traded from the Avs.

[GASabresIUFAN]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Don’t let the shortened season fool you: Accounting for that Sam’s past three years are 65, 59 and 60, if I remember the math right.

ROR’s at the same age were very similar. It took him 10 years to break 64 points.

Like Sam, ROR was also frequently used on the wing prior to being traded from the Avs.

Thank you.  See the stats below.  

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

"he's not ROR today"  "He's no where near ROR when we acquired him" etc.. Frankly I don't give two craps what he is today.  I care for comparison purposes what he was when TM gave up the farm to get him and how he compares at a similar age.  Did anyone look up the stats? I did and they are very similar.

When acquired by Buffalo, ROR had played 427 games for the Avs with 90 goals and 156a for 246 pts (.21g/gp & .576 pt/gp) for about 47 pts a season.  

His last 3 years in Colo he played 191gms with 51g 88a for 139 pts (.267 g/gp & .727 pts/gp) for nearly 60 points for a full season.

Remember folks ROR didn't break out until he went to Stl during his 27 year old campaign when he had 77 pts in 82 games

His 3 years in Buffalo were 224 gms 65g 111a for 176 pts (.29 g/gp & .79 pts/gp) for about 64 pts over a full season. 

Samson's career in Buffalo so far

454 gms 134g 161a for 295 pts (.295 g/gp & .65 pts/gp) for about 53 pts over a full season

His last 3 years 205g 69g 86a 155 pts (.337 g/gp & .756 pts/gp) or about 62 pts over a full season.

Over his career he has averaged about 18 per night PT and around 20 over the last 2 years.  ROR averaged 18:26 in Colorado and 21 in Buffalo.

You can argue ROR is a better all-around player and I'd agree, but the offensive stats are very similar and Samson is still only 25. 

Now that Samson has moved back to center (where he belongs) I think the comparison is even strong.  Truthfully Samson is a much better goal scorer and more accurate shooter.  ROR is better defensively and obviously in the FO circle, but Sam make great strides there this past season.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

Don’t let the shortened season fool you: Accounting for that Sam’s past three years are 65, 59 and 60, if I remember the math right.

ROR’s at the same age were very similar. It took him 10 years to break 64 points.

Like Sam, ROR was also frequently used on the wing prior to being traded from the Avs.

Like I said, ROR has developed into a near point a game player. We’ll see if Reinhart gets there. 

[Thorny]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You can argue ROR is a better all-around player and I'd agree. 

Yes, that is what I’ve been arguing, because it’s true: ROR is significantly better all around. If Samson is lucky he bumps up to ROR’s now near point a game production and that’s a maybe. Completely incomparable defensively. ROR a penalty kill staple. On face offs. It’s not close.

8 hours ago, Taro T said:

Until getting injured late in the shortened season he was on pace for over 100 points playing on a team that in general couldn't score in (choose your favorite brothel & blow analogy to go here).  How was that a sign his heart was never really into it?

This next statement is not directed at you, but merely is a general comment:  it tends to get annoying to have so many people base their opinion of Eichel on his play & perceived attitude upon how he handled playing through multiple injuries on a squad where the 2C checked out by the 3rd period of the 2nd game & where the guy that started in net on opening night is BARELY still NHL quality.

Sorry.  /rant

Preach 

[GASabresIUFAN]

On 6/28/2021 at 7:44 PM, Thorny said:

Yes, that is what I’ve been arguing, because it’s true: ROR is significantly better all around. If Samson is lucky he bumps up to ROR’s now near point a game production and that’s a maybe. Completely incomparable defensively. ROR a penalty kill staple. On face offs. It’s not close.

 

No.  He was a better all-around player when we acquired him but not significantly.  Sam is a better goal scorer and is an improving all-around player.  

The point of bringing up ROR is what we paid for a player who is similar to Samson offensively (although Sam is a much better goal scorer) and who was on the last year of his deal before being an UFA.  I agree that ROR was worth more at the time but the value isn't light years more as you imply because of Sam's better hands.  

We paid for ROR and McGinn

Zadorov (16th overall in 2013), Compher (35th overall in 2013), Grigorenko (12th overall in 2012) and the 31st 2015.  Essentially 2 middle 1sts and 2 high seconds for ROR and McGinn.  

I think that at least puts Samson's value at a 1st, 2 2nds and a veteran contract.

Jack's value?  Before his injury, one would have to argue for at least 3 1sts and a player.  What about now? If we trade him as is, I honestly see a value similar to what I just listed for a healthy and improving Samson.  

Edited July 1, 2021 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

31 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No.  He was a better all-around player when we acquired him but not significantly.  Sam is a better goal scorer and is an improving all-around player.  

The point of bringing up ROR is what we paid for a player who is similar to Samson offensively (although Sam is a much better goal scorer) and who was on the last year of his deal before being an UFA.  I agree that ROR was worth more at the time but the value isn't light years more as you imply because of Sam's better hands.  

We paid for ROR and McGinn

Zadorov (16th overall in 2013), Compher (35th overall in 2013), Grigorenko (12th overall in 2012) and the 31st 2015.  Essentially 2 middle 1sts and 2 high seconds for ROR and McGinn.  

I think the at least puts Samson's value at a 1st, 2 2nds and a veteran contract.

Jack's value?  Before his injury, one would have to argue for at least 3 1sts and a player.  What about now? If we trade him as is, I honestly see a value similar to what I just listed for a healthy and improving Samson.  

Jack needs to garner more than that in a trade. If we deal Jack for something like that I’m not going to change my mind on his value, I’m going to think our Rookie GM made a bad decision - it’s not like we haven’t seen it before. This would just be my opinion. To know one way or another for sure, we’ll have to wait and see if Jack proves to be healthy or not. 

Anyways, I expect to see clear separation in the deals. I don’t think the Reinhart return will be quite as lofty as some are predicting 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Thorny

[Believer]

Reinhart… He’s a gamer… Eichel is a cancer… and damaged goods… 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Believer

[GASabresIUFAN]

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/dreger-sabres-may-have-to-lower-asking-price-for-jack-eichel-for-more-clubs-to-truly-engage

"Sabres may have to lower asking price for Jack Eichel for more clubs to truly engage"  Lets the markdowns begin as predicted.  Jack wants surgery, Adams reiterated today that the Sabres are against the surgery.  No surprise that teams don't want to invest to heavily on damaged goods.  I wouldn't either.  

Quote

The Buffalo Sabres are reportedly seeking assets to the equivalent of four first round picks in a potential trade package for captain Jack Eichel. However, TSN hockey insider Darren Dreger says their high asking price may be depressing his trade market.

As I said earlier KA will be lucky to get three pieces for him.

[LGR4GM]

17 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://www.audacy.com/wgr550/sports/sabres/dreger-sabres-may-have-to-lower-asking-price-for-jack-eichel-for-more-clubs-to-truly-engage

"Sabres may have to lower asking price for Jack Eichel for more clubs to truly engage"  Lets the markdowns begin as predicted.  Jack wants surgery, Adams reiterated today that the Sabres are against the surgery.  No surprise that teams don't want to invest to heavily on damaged goods.  I wouldn't either.  

As I said earlier KA will be lucky to get three pieces for him.

lol, they literally don't have to trade him. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

lol, they literally don't have to trade him. 

I agree and have said as much in this thread and others.  The biggest hurdle is if management wants to move on and Jack remains sidelined do they run the risk of the his NMC kicking in before they can get a good price.

 

[LGR4GM]

18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I agree and have said as much in this thread and others.  The biggest hurdle is if management wants to move on and Jack remains sidelined do they run the risk of the his NMC kicking in before they can get a good price.

 

The NMC puts pressure on other teams too as they have to worry about being a team Eichel won't come to. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

34 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The NMC puts pressure on other teams too as they have to worry about being a team Eichel won't come to. 

That's fair.  

By the way, the scout's interview agrees with you and me about what Buffalo should do. Beniers!

[GASabresIUFAN]

Seeing a Jack currently remains a Sabres and the rumor mill seems to be implying that the market for Jack isn't great given his injury status., do we (Sabrespace) continue to believe that Jack is worth more in trade then Sam?   

[Thorny]

Every farmer and their mom knows the answer is yes.