Sabres Taxi Squad

[tom webster]

I’ve said this before, KO is the ultimate teammate and immensely respected. The team will not do anything that appears to be disrespectful. I’m not even sure they will ever buy him out even when it becomes more financially justified. Unless he decides he wants out, I see him playing out the contract.

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Brawndo said:

For someone like Okposo His Full Salary is guaranteed and it would be discussed first with the player and then team leadership before proceeding. 

Next to Eichel he is at the front of the room when it comes to team leadership. Okposo has a role on this team which he does well. Admittedly, he is overpaid but that is not his fault. On a team with a number of young players and on a team that becomes fragile when dealing with troubled waters he is a stabilizing force. He's a leader and contributor on this team. I don't understand the desire to move him at this point. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by JohnC

[Curt]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I just wonder what hiding players this way does to team morale?

You are taking money out of people’s pockets and not because of their play.

Nope.  Okposo would be paid the same whether on the NHL roster, taxi squad, or AHL.  This is true of any player with a one way deal.

[Curt]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

I’ve said this before, KO is the ultimate teammate and immensely respected. The team will not do anything that appears to be disrespectful. I’m not even sure they will ever buy him out even when it becomes more financially justified. Unless he decides he wants out, I see him playing out the contract.

I understand what you are saying, that it could be viewed as disrespectful.  However, I feel like there is an approach to it that could be acceptable to all.  It could approached/viewed as Okposo being a leader, helping out the team, and maybe increasing their ability to make improvements for a playoff run.  I don’t know if he would be inclined to view it that way though, and I’m sure they would get his sign off beforehand.

These are paper transactions only.  It would have no effect on Okposo’s ability to be a part of the NHL team at all times.

[GASabresIUFAN]

KO disrespect who cares.  If he isn’t helping the team win who cares that people like him in the locker room. They liked Matt Moulson also. 

Players care about winning and if Sheehan, Thompson or Mitts help us win over KO not one player will complain.  
 

 

[JohnC]

50 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

KO disrespect who cares.  If he isn’t helping the team win who cares that people like him in the locker room. They liked Matt Moulson also. 

Players care about winning and if Sheehan, Thompson or Mitts help us win over KO not one player will complain.  
 

 

I agree with you that if he isn't helping the team sentiment shouldn't be a factor to retain him. But that is not the case with him. He can contribute on a fourth line checking/defensive line and he can also give you some decent secondary scoring. And that fourth line is very likely to get more playing time that the typical third line. He is one of the more physical players on a team that lacks that attribute. And he can be a positive force on the PK, a unit that needs to be upgraded. 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

KO disrespect who cares.  If he isn’t helping the team win who cares that people like him in the locker room. They liked Matt Moulson also. 

Players care about winning and if Sheehan, Thompson or Mitts help us win over KO not one player will complain.  
 

 

You don’t understand how a team is built and functions if you believe how they treat him doesn’t matter. This isn’t Madden. If building a team was just about acquiring the most talented players, it would be relatively easy. Putting a true team together is a lot more complex.

The Bills are a perfect example of this. They tore it down, got rid of players that didn’t buy in. Talent trumps everything but players like KO in hockey, Lee Smith in football, they matter. 

[Brawndo]

After Larsson left, Okposo has the best defensive metrics amongst forwards that were with the team last year. The question is how much of that lines effectiveness was because of Larrson? If Zemgus and Okposo are kept on the checking line and it regresses, then it’s time to re examine things. 

1 hour ago, Curt said:

I understand what you are saying, that it could be viewed as disrespectful.  However, I feel like there is an approach to it that could be acceptable to all.  It could approached/viewed as Okposo being a leader, helping out the team, and maybe increasing their ability to make improvements for a playoff run.  I don’t know if he would be inclined to view it that way though, and I’m sure they would get his sign off beforehand.

These are paper transactions only.  It would have no effect on Okposo’s ability to be a part of the NHL team at all times.

This. 
 

Eichel referred to Okposo as Yoda in the Room and that He can go to KO for advice anytime he needs too. 
 

However if there is a drop off in His Play and His Cap Hit is hindering the team from making moves particularly before the 2022-23 Season they have to look at getting creative. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

32 minutes ago, tom webster said:

You don’t understand how a team is built and functions if you believe how they treat him doesn’t matter. This isn’t Madden. If building a team was just about acquiring the most talented players, it would be relatively easy. Putting a true team together is a lot more complex.

The Bills are a perfect example of this. They tore it down, got rid of players that didn’t buy in. Talent trumps everything but players like KO in hockey, Lee Smith in football, they matter. 

That’s BS.  The Bills dumped many players, some very good, regardless of locker-room so that they could open cap space to rebuild the team.  Which they did.  Dawkins is the only OL that was here 2 years ago.  Management brought in players in FA and the draft that fit the system they installed.  It’s why we have 11 ex Panthers from McDermott’s time there.  Diggs was a troublemaker in Minn because he wanted out of a run oriented system.  He came to Buffalo and he fit what they were trying to do and surprise surprise he is a model citizen.

I got news for you, if management can find away to get rid of a $6 mill 4th line player without a substantial cap hit, they will, locker-room be demanded, especially if dumping him will help them retain Hall or Dahlin or Reinhart etc..

Build a winning team and the locker-room will sort itself out just fine.

Jack may call KO Yoda, but if Hall and Jack become a dynamic duo this season and we have to dump Yoda to keep Hall, Jack will wish Yoda well.

Edited December 30, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[tom webster]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That’s BS.  The Bills dumped many players, some very good, regardless of locker-room so that they could open cap space to rebuild the team.  Which they did.  Dawkins is the only OL that was here 2 years ago.  Management brought in players in FA and the draft that fit the system they installed.  It’s why we have 11 ex Panthers from McDermott’s time there.  Diggs was a troublemaker in Minn because he wanted out of a run oriented system.  He came to Buffalo and he fit what they were trying to do and surprise surprise he is a model citizen.

I got news for you, if management can find away to get rid of a $6 mill 4th line player without a substantial cap hit, they will, locker-room be demanded, especially if dumping him will help them retain Hall or Dahlin or Reinhart etc..

Build a winning team and the locker-room will sort itself out just fine.

Jack may call KO Yoda, but if Hall and Jack become a dynamic duo this season and we have to dump Yoda to keep Hall, Jack will wish Yoda well.

We disagree, and I’m pretty sure most of the team would too. 

[Curt]

If they could move Okposo cheaply, I think they would.  If Okposo becomes so bad that he can’t even play even on the 4th line, they definitely would be trying to move on from him any way that’s feasible.

Im sure that the players on the team would have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand they love Okposo and hate to see him go.  On the other hand, if someone is not playing up to par, they know it, and they are all adults who understand that this is a business as well as a game.

Players get moved all the time. There are respectful, classy ways to do it.

But anyway, this discussion wasn’t about “dumping” Okposo.  It was about waiving him to the taxi squad in order to save cap space, knowing that no one would claim him, and whether or not there is a way that Okposo and the team would be ok with questionable optics of it.  It could potentially be spun as a positive thing, for the team, but would the players go for it?

[GASabresIUFAN]

44 minutes ago, Curt said:

If they could move Okposo cheaply, I think they would.  If Okposo becomes so bad that he can’t even play even on the 4th line, they definitely would be trying to move on from him any way that’s feasible.

Im sure that the players on the team would have mixed emotions about this.  On the one hand they love Okposo and hate to see him go.  On the other hand, if someone is not playing up to par, they know it, and they are all adults who understand that this is a business as well as a game.

Players get moved all the time. There are respectful, classy ways to do it.

But anyway, this discussion wasn’t about “dumping” Okposo.  It was about waiving him to the taxi squad in order to save cap space, knowing that no one would claim him, and whether or not there is a way that Okposo and the team would be ok with questionable optics of it.  It could potentially be spun as a positive thing, for the team, but would the players go for it?

The team starts 5-2-1 with KO on the taxi squad you won’t hear a word of complaint.  The team starts 2-5-1 and KO is on the taxi squad everyone will complain.  Winning cures all ills.

Frankly I don't understand why finding away to move on from a $6 mill 4th line player is so controversial.  Teams do it all the time through burying guys in the minors (Wade Redden, Matt Moulson), buy outs (Andrey Sekera in Edm, Corey Perry), salary retention (Milan Lucic), or using excess cap to take on bad contracts to get prospects or high draft picks or taking on the cap hit of injured players.  If I had to guess nearly ever team in the NHL currently is using at least one of these strategies.  

Edited December 30, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

The Okposo conversation is moot until he’s not one of our top 12.

We hope Cozens and Thompson and Eakin and Mitts change things, but he opens the season in the top nine

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That’s BS.  The Bills dumped many players, some very good, regardless of locker-room so that they could open cap space to rebuild the team.  Which they did.  Dawkins is the only OL that was here 2 years ago.  Management brought in players in FA and the draft that fit the system they installed.  It’s why we have 11 ex Panthers from McDermott’s time there.  Diggs was a troublemaker in Minn because he wanted out of a run oriented system.  He came to Buffalo and he fit what they were trying to do and surprise surprise he is a model citizen.

I got news for you, if management can find away to get rid of a $6 mill 4th line player without a substantial cap hit, they will, locker-room be demanded, especially if dumping him will help them retain Hall or Dahlin or Reinhart etc..

Build a winning team and the locker-room will sort itself out just fine.

Jack may call KO Yoda, but if Hall and Jack become a dynamic duo this season and we have to dump Yoda to keep Hall, Jack will wish Yoda well.

I agree with most of this, but there is no question that the Bills dumped guys like Dareus and Watkins because they wanted to change the locker room — and they’ve been proven right.  
 

55 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The Okposo conversation is moot until he’s not one of our top 12.

We hope Cozens and Thompson and Eakin and Mitts change things, but he opens the season in the top nine

You’re a kind man, but this is nuts.  

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

You’re a kind man, but this is nuts.  

Think so?

Now this is likely to change as the season progresses, but I’d say entering the season there are five forwards less likely to be benched: Eichel, Hall, Staal, Reinhart and Skinner

More likely: Cozens, Rieder, Lazar, Mittelstadt and Thompson

I’d put Kyle in a group that includes Girgs, Eakin and Olofsson, and if pushed Id have him 7th, after Olofsson.

I’m not talking about where he plays on the depth chart, I’m talking how likely it is he will be made a healthy scratch.

Where do you see him?

[nfreeman]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Think so?

Now this is likely to change as the season progresses, but I’d say entering the season there are five forwards less likely to be benched: Eichel, Hall, Staal, Reinhart and Skinner

More likely: Cozens, Rieder, Lazar, Mittelstadt and Thompson

I’d put Kyle in a group that includes Girgs, Eakin and Olofsson, and if pushed Id have him 7th, after Olofsson.

I’m not talking about where he plays on the depth chart, I’m talking how likely it is he will be made a healthy scratch.

Where do you see him?

OK -- I misinterpreted your "top 9" statement.

Even so, in light of your clarification, I'd say there are 9 forwards less likely to be scratched for opening night -- the 5 you mentioned as sure things, plus the 3 you mentioned as in his cohort, plus Cozens.  I also think it's pretty likely that Reider and TT are in the lineup on opening night, and that as the season progresses, the guys who will be fighting it out for the last couple of spots will be KO, Reider, TT, Lazar, Mitts and perhaps R2.

[LGR4GM]

Lol, Okposo will make the team and... be fine. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

OK -- I misinterpreted your "top 9" statement.

Even so, in light of your clarification, I'd say there are 9 forwards less likely to be scratched for opening night -- the 5 you mentioned as sure things, plus the 3 you mentioned as in his cohort, plus Cozens.  I also think it's pretty likely that Reider and TT are in the lineup on opening night, and that as the season progresses, the guys who will be fighting it out for the last couple of spots will be KO, Reider, TT, Lazar, Mitts and perhaps R2.

This is reasonable.

There is a real possibility Eakin will be as bad as he was last year, and I just think that Ralph will favour the vets until the kids are clearly better.

What I like about the development of R2 and the additions of Rieder and Sheahan is it means there is both a safety net and an obstacle to guard and spur kids like Asplund, Mitts, Thompson and Cozens and vets like Okposo, Girgensons and Eakin.

The worry is that Botterill tried to set up a similar situation last year and it didnt work. Thompson got hurt, Mitts and Asplund weren’t ready, Sobotka/Frolik failed and Vesey and Sheary didn’t take advantage of their opportunity. Olofsson and Lazar were the only forwards to emerge from the pack.

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by dudacek

[Curt]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Lol, Okposo will make the team and... be fine. 

Agree, he will certainly play to start the season, and will continue to play unless he really stinks it up.

This whole discussion just started with whether they would consider sending him to the taxi squad on off days to save a little cap space, purely as a paper transaction.

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Curt said:

Agree, he will certainly play to start the season, and will continue to play unless he really stinks it up.

This whole discussion just started with whether they would consider sending him to the taxi squad on off days to save a little cap space, purely as a paper transaction.

How would it save cap?

[Curt]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

How would it save cap?

He has to clear waivers (would anyone take him? no), then he can be sent to the “minors” which would be the taxi squad that is practicing with the team anyway.  Having Okposo in the minors for the whole season would save $1.4M in cap I believe.  So if they can have him in the “minors” for close to half the season, on as many non game days as possible then call him up for game days, then maybe they could save $0.5M in cap space, which could be useful wiggle room to add at the deadline.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Curt

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

He has to clear waivers (would anyone take him? no), then he can be sent to the “minors” which would be the taxi squad that is practicing with the team anyway.  Having Okposo in the minors for the whole season would save $1.4M in cap I believe.  So if they can have him in the “minors” for close to half the season, on as many non game days as possible then call him up for game days, then maybe they could save $0.5M in cap space, which could be useful wiggle room to add at the deadline.

No.  Having Okposo on the taxi squad saves the Sabres $1.105MM over the course of the entire season PROVIDED his spot on the roster isn't replaced giving the Sabres 28 total bodies (22 Sabres, 6 DeNiro's) rather than 29 total bodies.  Having the full complement of people on both saves UP TO $375k over the full season provided the extra player makes league minimum.  Anything that 29th body makes over $750k reduces thatsavings $ for $.

Also, when players end up on IR and the Sabres have an extra body or 3 cutting into the cap those savings dissipate.  To save any more than that per player would require putting g a guy on a 2 way deal w/ an NHL salary over $1.105MM be put on the taxi squad.

And any days he's on the regular roster cuts into those savings as well.

[Curt]

51 minutes ago, Taro T said:

No.  Having Okposo on the taxi squad saves the Sabres $1.105MM over the course of the entire season PROVIDED his spot on the roster isn't replaced giving the Sabres 28 total bodies (22 Sabres, 6 DeNiro's) rather than 29 total bodies.  Having the full complement of people on both saves UP TO $375k over the full season provided the extra player makes league minimum.  Anything that 29th body makes over $750k reduces thatsavings $ for $.

Also, when players end up on IR and the Sabres have an extra body or 3 cutting into the cap those savings dissipate.  To save any more than that per player would require putting g a guy on a 2 way deal w/ an NHL salary over $1.105MM be put on the taxi squad.

And any days he's on the regular roster cuts into those savings as well.

Ok.  Isn’t the max cap savings from having a guy in minors normally $1.4M?

Regarding the bolded, how does that work?  This is new info to me.

You definitely would not be replacing him on the active roster at those times, because the whole point is that it’s only on off days, so why would you need to?

The stuff about players on IR is irrelevant because that’s going to happen either way, no?

Edited December 30, 2020 by Curt

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

Ok.  Isn’t the max cap savings from having a guy in minors normally $1.4M?

Regarding the bolded, how does that work?  This is new info to me.

You definitely would not be replacing him on the active roster at those times, because the whole point is that it’s only on off days, so why would you need to?

The stuff about players on IR is irrelevant because that’s going to happen either way, no?

There is no set maximum cap savings by having a player in the AHL, because players on 2 way deals save the entire NHL contract value off the cap when the player is in the minors.

When a non-35+ multi-year contract player is in the minors, the 1st $1,125,000 (sorry, had been writing $1,105,000 in the last few posts, oops) of his contract doesn't count against the cap.  For guys on 2 way deals & guys making w/in $375k of league minimum on 1 way deals, this covers the full salary.

For guys making over that, all the rest of the contract stays as a cap hit.  Okposo is one of those players. 

As for your Q about the savings, if Okposo is in the AHL, the team saves $1,125,000 off his cap hit, but now they only have 22 players on the roster.  If they bring up a guy making league minimum, then they end $750,000 of that $1,125,000 leaving them $375,000 innsavings over the course of the season.  If instead they bring up a guy making $1,000,000 then they save a massive $125,000 of Okposo's salary.  Should the guy brought up have a $1,225,000 cap hit, now the Sabres net out $100,000 worse off than they were w/ Okposo on the roster.

And further, If that $1,000,000 player now ends up on IR, his salary still counts against the cap and whomever replaces him also counts against the cap.  Same should anybody else go on IR.  And yes, this happens either way, but when that IR'd player puts the team over the cap for the day, banked cap space gets used up so all the extra effort they went through to save a few pennies ends up for naught as the cap space goes away anyhow.  And should that I'D guy end up on LTIR & the team legally exceeds the cap, there is no remaining banked cap space and nothing at all was gained except possibly creating bad blood between that player & management.

[Curt]

32 minutes ago, Taro T said:

As for your Q about the savings, if Okposo is in the AHL, the team saves $1,125,000 off his cap hit, but now they only have 22 players on the roster.  If they bring up a guy making league minimum, then they end $750,000 of that $1,125,000 leaving them $375,000 innsavings over the course of the season.  If instead they bring up a guy making $1,000,000 then they save a massive $125,000 of Okposo's salary.  Should the guy brought up have a $1,225,000 cap hit, now the Sabres net out $100,000 worse off than they were w/ Okposo on the roster.

Thanks for the additional info.  I had thought it was 1.4M, not 1.125M.  The rest I understood.

You are misunderstanding the point, I think.  All the stuff I quoted above is not what was proposed.  The idea is not to  leave Okposo in the minors all season, or to have him leave the NHL team at all.

The idea was to “send him down” to the taxi squad on off days, as a PAPER TRANSACTION ONLY, and then calling him back up for game days.  In this way they could save some cap hit over the course of the season.  They absolutely would not call someone up to take his place on these off days because it defeats the whole point.

I’m estimating that this might be feasible for up to half the days during the course of the season, thus perhaps they could save $0.5M cap hit.

The stuff about IR players using up excess cap space is relevant, and I don’t know how much that generally costs a team per season.  It’s possible that this is likely to make such a process pointless, but I’m not sure how likely.

Ive also said that I think there may be a way to approach this that everyone is comfortable with.  It’s certainly not something that I would force through if it was going to create bad blood, as you say.