The Shooty Hoops Thread

[Andrew Amerk]

If Lebron > Jordan, then Crosby > Gretzky. 

[North Buffalo]

14 hours ago, WildCard said:

The problem is the game is different. LeBron wouldn't be able to do all of those things back then 

Yup Folks like Carl Malone, Patrick, Oakley, the worm, Robert Parish, Lambier, even Shaq would have kept him out of the middle.  He is not that strong and MJ was a better shooter. 

Old joke from MJs college days... What was the best defense against Michael Jordan....

Dean Smith.

Edited October 24, 2018 by North Buffalo

[Sabres Fan in NS]

In before something happens to this thread ...

Jordan was very good.  Different era.

I think in many ways LeBron is better than Jordan.

I don't know / think if either were the best all time ... Wilt? ... Kareem?

Also, it appears that the big offseason trade in The Great Satan is working out very well, so far at least.

Edited October 24, 2018 by N S
fat finger ... again / still

[Hoss]

12 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Finally, although I admire Lebron, and think he's probably a better guy to hang out with than Jordan was, there is something about him that other great players seem to find off-putting.  No one ever left Jordan the way Kyrie left Lebron, and it looks like Butler and Leonard aren't interested in playing with Lebron either.

Scottie Pippen demanded a trade — very publicly. He was even interviewed during the All Star game and listed places and players he wanted to join.

Pippen also says himself LeBron is better than MJ.

[nfreeman]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

Scottie Pippen demanded a trade — very publicly. He was even interviewed during the All Star game and listed places and players he wanted to join.

Pippen also says himself LeBron is better than MJ.

IIRC, Pippen's trade demand was over his contract, not over dissatisfaction with being MJ's teammate.

I also think he's gone both ways on the MJ/Lebron issue.

[Hoss]

14 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

IIRC, Pippen's trade demand was over his contract, not over dissatisfaction with being MJ's teammate.

I also think he's gone both ways on the MJ/Lebron issue.

Pippen’s trade demand came from a poor relationship with the team’s GM and rumors they talked about trading him in the offseason. Irving’s trade demand came in almost the exact same context. The reports about his desire to leave LeBron were certainly there, but Pippen demanding a trade in the first place plus his comments about LeBron > Jordan makes it clear he doesn’t feel super about MJ.

On the record, Kyrie said the pressure of needing to win every game and every title was tough to handle.

So this one looks like a tossup and not really a knock on LeBron vs Jordan.

[Randall Flagg]

Kyrie also thinks the Earth is flat so nothing he ever says will tilt my opinion of Lebron

[nfreeman]

@Hoss -- I don't think it's a tossup.

First, it's pretty clear that Pippin's trade demand was about the Benjamins:

- from an AP article at the time of Pippen's trade demand:  https://www.apnews.com/2374445c97f79986cccb9bd8608a1bc1

Quote

``I think I’ve been treated very unfairly through this organization, and ... it’s gotten to the point now, I don’t see myself carrying on with it,″ Pippen said Tuesday.

In his 10 years with the Bulls, Pippen has often feuded with team management. One longstanding issue is his contract, which pays $2.775 million this season _ the 122nd highest salary in the league.

 

- from a Chicago Tribune article at the time:  http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-11-25/sports/9711250244_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-phil-jackson

Quote

''It's pretty obvious that he's wanted a new contract,'' guard Michael Jordan said. ''By him saying that, it didn't change what we all knew. We respect his wishes and desires. But I can't focus on what may or may not happen. He has to explain his comments.''

 

Second, it's also pretty clear that Kyrie was sick of being the 2nd banana to Lebron, and wanted to be top dog on his own team:

- from a podcast with Bill Simmons and David Griffin, Cleveland's former GM:  https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2018/5/9/17337792/david-griffin-bill-simmons-podcast-kyrie-irving-lebron-james

Quote

 

Simmons:  [LeBron James’s] inability to figure out how to keep Kyrie happy, I think, was his biggest teammate failure of the last 10 years.

 

Griffin:  I think the fit of LeBron and Kyrie was difficult because Kyrie was so good offensively. [He] had been carrying the load offensively for a bad team … [but] hadn’t been given the opportunity [to lead] yet, and just when we’re gonna be good, LeBron shows up and it’s his team. So he never got the chance to take the natural progression in his career where he had to try to carry the load and see how good he could be. And he really wanted that. He’d been doing it on a bad team. He wanted a chance to do it on a good team. And it wasn’t about being the man—it’s: “How good can I be? What am I capable of? LeBron can score; he doesn’t need me to score. LeBron can make all the passes; he doesn’t need me to do that. I’m not a better defender than he is.” So I think you get to the point where the fit and the need LeBron had for Kyrie wasn’t going to allow him to become Scottie because he didn’t need Kyrie to fill in the gaps, necessarily.

 

Simmons:  I was surprised when [Irving] got to Boston—and I obviously know a lot of people in the Boston organization, and I think all of them were surprised by what an alpha Kyrie was, and how similar he was in personality to [Kevin Garnett]. They were surprised that Kyrie lasted in LeBron’s shadow that long—he really wanted to be the guy.

 

Griffin:  I’ll think of it as one of the biggest failures of my time in Cleveland that I couldn’t grow that to a level of individual accountability where they felt that beholden to each other.

 

- from a lengthy espn feature on Kyrie:  http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21941260/nba-playing-lebron-winning-nba-title-kyrie-irving-decided-move-question-why

Quote

Teammates say LeBron's habit of referring to Irving as "the kid" and his "little brother" was eventually viewed by Irving as a subtle lack of respect.

Irving's teammates say there were times Kyrie felt marginalized

 

Now, it's quite possible that Kyrie is simply a nut case, and that his departure should not reflect badly on Lebron.  But it's hard to overlook the fact that neither Butler nor Leonard has listed the Lakers -- but both have listed the Clippers! -- in their list of preferred destinations.

[shrader]

Bouncyball, not shooty hoops.  Next you'll try to claim that Sabre fans in Carolina like to punch babies.  I will not stand for this blasphemy.

[Andrew Amerk]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/05/scottie-pippen-michael-jordan-lebron-james-debate-opinions-timeline-nba/amp

A summary of things Pippen has said regarding Jordan vs Lebron. 

[Hoss]

6 hours ago, nfreeman said:

@Hoss -- I don't think it's a tossup.

First, it's pretty clear that Pippin's trade demand was about the Benjamins:

- from an AP article at the time of Pippen's trade demand:  https://www.apnews.com/2374445c97f79986cccb9bd8608a1bc1

- from a Chicago Tribune article at the time:  http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-11-25/sports/9711250244_1_scottie-pippen-bulls-phil-jackson

 

Second, it's also pretty clear that Kyrie was sick of being the 2nd banana to Lebron, and wanted to be top dog on his own team:

- from a podcast with Bill Simmons and David Griffin, Cleveland's former GM:  https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2018/5/9/17337792/david-griffin-bill-simmons-podcast-kyrie-irving-lebron-james

 

- from a lengthy espn feature on Kyrie:  http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21941260/nba-playing-lebron-winning-nba-title-kyrie-irving-decided-move-question-why

 

Now, it's quite possible that Kyrie is simply a nut case, and that his departure should not reflect badly on Lebron.  But it's hard to overlook the fact that neither Butler nor Leonard has listed the Lakers -- but both have listed the Clippers! -- in their list of preferred destinations.

Leonard is still, by most accounts, interested in being a Laker. Butler seems mostly interested in going somewhere with the most money so he can find a player he can bring with him. The Lakers don’t offer that and Butler clearly thinks he’s a generational leader (he’s not).

[nfreeman]

Well, I would love for either Leonard or Butler to end up with Lebron, as I think that, combined with growth from the Lakers' kids, would present a true threat to GS. 

[Hoss]

This is a debate that nobody will move on, at least not until LeBron proves himself ten more times.

There’s a realistic chance LeBron retires with:

- Most seasons played (he’s in season 16, most ever is 21 - Vince Carter would make it 22 if he plays next year)

- Most games played (Parrish has 1,611 and LeBron has 1,146. Likely needs six mostly healthy seasons after this)

- Most minutes played (Kareem has 57,446 and LeBron is at 44,417. He’d get that in five more mostly healthy seasons)

- Field goals made, attempted and missed (five more seasons for all three)

- Top ten in threes made (already has over 1,000 more than MJ)

- Most points (Kareem had 38,387, LeBron has 31,120. 1,500 points would be a career low but if he averages that for five seasons he gets it)

- Top 3 in assists (already has 3,000 more than MJ - will double his number)

- Top 30 in rebounds (already has 2,000 more than MJ)

- Top 5 in steals (will come very close to MJ if he doesn’t pass him)

- Top 50 in blocks (will pass MJ any day - three behind)

 No, he won’t finish in free throws attempted or made.

 

I know compiling numbers doesn’t define greatness but his longevity and sustained greatness is unmatched. His prime is longer than any player, maybe in all four of the major sports. If he sustains a superstar level of play for five or six more seasons I don’t know how anybody can deny he’s the greatest to ever play.

13 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, I would love for either Leonard or Butler to end up with Lebron, as I think that, combined with growth from the Lakers' kids, would present a true threat to GS. 

When Durant and/or Klay Thompson leave next offseason GS will be done along with the greatest dynasty in the sport. A TON of chatter about Durant wanting to go to the Knicks in his prime. I think Klay stays but there’s a chance he goes to the Lakers - he’s reportedly always wanted to play there and with LeBron.

[WildCard]

Agreed

But he's still one of the corniest, most annoying athletes ever. Jordan is an awful human to deal with but man was he a great athlete to watch.

[nfreeman]

Well, I suppose it depends on how you look at the debate.  If it's "who had the best 11-year run?" -- it's MJ (or Bill Russell, but that was before my time).   

OTOH, it's certainly legitimate to think that even though MJ or Russell had the best 11-year run, Lebron could, if he keeps it up, including in the playoffs, have the best 18-year run, even if he didn't have an 11-year stretch that was as good as MJ's or Russell's -- and that you'd rather have the guy who had the 18-year run on your team than the guy who only gave you 11 years.  In any case though we have to remember that no one got to have Lebron on his team for Lebron's entire career, since he jumped around a few times, while Bulls fans got the full 11 years with their guy without seeing him bail on them for another team.

As for GS, it's certainly possible that one or both of Klay and KD leave, but I think it's more likely that both stay.  I will be very surprised if KD joins the Knicks, who are a terrible organization, or really any team that isn't an immediate title contender once he joins.

Of course, if KD and Leonard were both to join the Nets, that would be pretty sweet indeed.

 

[Hoss]

38 minutes ago, WildCard said:

Agreed

But he's still one of the corniest, most annoying athletes ever. Jordan is an awful human to deal with but man was he a great athlete to watch.

Jordan is a terrible person. LeBron is a corny person. They’re both incredible to watch... so why is LeBron the “but” in this post?

[WildCard]

Just now, Hoss said:

Jordan is a terrible person. LeBron is a corny person. They’re both incredible to watch... so why is LeBron the “but” in this post?

I like Jordan, I don't like LeBron. I enjoy watching him play, and I'll even root for him based on the scenario, but he annoys me to no end.

[Hoss]

The “bail” comment above by Freeman is the closest anyone has come to saying LeBron not staying on one team his entire career is a knock against him but I’m glad nobody has gone there. It’s a dumb argument. Plenty of great players changed teams for many reasons. One of the main reasons LeBron left Cleveland the first time is because the organization was inept and failed every time they tried to add to that roster. It’s not his fault he wasn’t drafted to a franchise that built a great roster or to a city just about nobody would volunteer to play in.

LeBron going to Miami made me so mad, but it was the right choice. The way he announced it was dumb but he’s a businessman who knew what’s he was doing.

Leaving Cleveland the second time is also fine. He brought a championship to that city. His city. Nobody should wear 23 for any team in that city again. But he’s on to bigger things - and his choice seemed to be only somewhat related to basketball which is something he earned in the first 15 years in the NBA. There’s a probably more than 50% chance LeBron never goes to the finals again if KD doesn’t leave Golden State and that’s fine. LeBron is well established as an individual and has the team accomplishments to back it up.

4 minutes ago, WildCard said:

I like Jordan, I don't like LeBron. I enjoy watching him play, and I'll even root for him based on the scenario, but he annoys me to no end.

Michael Jordan is legitimately a terrible person. LeBron is legitimately a great person.

[Hoss]

Moving beyond MJ vs LeBron - what would everyone’s top ten all-time be?

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, Hoss said:

Michael Jordan is legitimately a terrible person. LeBron is legitimately a great person.

Terrible is a stretch. And I already said LeBron is a good person, and Jordan by all accounts is a dck off the court. I don't really care about that when it comes to athletes on the field/court

I mean, the dude shot a free throw with his eyes closed and drained it. He played through the flu and dominated. LeBron gets a cramp in the finals and is pulled. From Jordans to SpaceJam Jordan is Jordan and LeBron will never compare to that type of an iconic athlete. 

[Hoss]

LeBron broke his nose and still drove to the basket and dunked it. The whole toughness debate is so fake. Jordan had cramps and came out, too. The flu game is also as overrated as Schilling’s bloody sock. Players have noted they’ve had big games while very ill, too. But because it’s Jordan it’s some heroic effort.

[Andrew Amerk]

My two pennies:

I’ve NEVER been a bouncy ball (or shooty hoops) fan. Yet, I WOULD watch MJ in Bulls games when playoffs rolled around. It’s not always exemplified in numbers - he was magical to watch, even in a sport I didn’t like or completely understand. I knew something special was going on. 

Zero other NBA players have ever gotten me interested in watching the games like Jordan did. I even think I had a Bulls Starter cap at one point. I’ve tried watching playoff games with the other big names, such as Lebron. He’s a special talent, for sure, but he’s never been able to capture my attention and make me watch a sport I don’t like, as MJ did. 

[Hoss]

19 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

If Lebron > Jordan, then Crosby > Gretzky. 

Forgot to respond to this... this isn’t a true or fair comparison. Crosby isn’t better than Gretzky in this era or any era. Gretzky’s numbers are unbelievably next level and his abilities were clearly above Sid. Sid isn’t even the best Penguin ever.

[Hoss]

My top ten:

1. LeBron

2. MJ

3. Kareem

4. Magic

5. Wilt

6. Bill Russell

7. Shaq

8. Hakeem

9. Duncan

10. Larry Legend

 

There’s a chance Kevin Durant reaches number 10 but I don’t see him going any higher. Steph Curry is the best shooter ever but he’s not getting to the top ten.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I'll give you a top 5, for now ...

1.)  Kareem

2.)  Wilt

3.)  Jordan

4.) LeBron

5.) Hakeem

#3 and #4 may be interchangable.  They are that close, IMO.