Terry Pegula - Rally the Owners to change the challenge rule

[SwampD]

I thought at the time and I still do that it was a good goal.

I thought at the time and still do that when Eichel got the puck on the half boards in our zone, he should have passed it to Kane. Instead he made the whole team wait for him as he tried to make the play all on his own, causing the offsides.

 

It's the same criticism I had for Kane at the beginning of the year, who has since changed and been rewarded with many more scoring chances because of it.

 

The good news is that Eichel is only 19 (that still blows my mind), and that even at 19, he has the confidence to try and make plays all on his own. Man, once he learns to use his teammates more, he is going to be scary. Me likey.

 

Should have put this in the GDT.

[PASabreFan]

Not wrong, just not accurately. Off-sides, especially at the fastest level of the game, is almost impossible to see in real time. You have to take it for what it is. It simply isn't meant to be scrutinized beyond the level of real time human perception. Anything more intensive is a bastardization of the game. 

I agree. You can't ask a human being to look at Gionta's skate and the puck at the same time. But you're backing off what you said.

 

Did you catch Bettman's quote that I linked to? He said the purpose of the challenge is to eliminate "egregrious errors." It's not working that way. Again, it's a problem that didn't need solving. How many egregrious offside errors were there? And even when they happened, WHO CARES?

 

I thought at the time and still do that when Eichel got the puck on the half boards in our zone, he should have passed it to Kane. Instead he made the whole team wait for him as he tried to make the play all on his own, causing the offsides.

 

It's the same criticism I had for Kane at the beginning of the year, who has since changed and been rewarded with many more scoring chances because of it.

 

The good news is that Eichel is only 19 (that still blows my mind), and that even at 19, he has the confidence to try and make plays all on his own. Man, once he learns to use his teammates more, he is going to be scary. Me likey.

 

Should have put this in the GDT.

HE SET UP A GOAL!!! Now I'm getting mad.

[dudacek]

Not wrong, just not accurately. Off-sides, especially at the fastest level of the game, is almost impossible to see in real time. You have to take it for what it is. It simply isn't meant to be scrutinized beyond the level of real time human perception. Anything more intensive is a bastardization of the game.

 

Best take on this yet.

And that is why affixing blame on a particular player on that play is a waste.

(Even though I suspect that if 12 was carrying the puck and 15 was offside a few posters would be singing a different tune.)

Edited December 13, 2015 by dudacek

[PASabreFan]

I like head cheese. You must not be in PA Dutch land.

 

I'm not just talking about Eichel. Ristolainen is a good player and making big strides. In fact I have more confidence in him now than I ever did in Myers.

 

Eichel is almost treating the game at times like it is the X-Games ski slalom. Sure the time counts, but he's trying to rack up freestyle points. Where's the supposed combine standout and guy who posted weightlifting videos online? So far his unicorn outfit is the perfect fit.

He'll clean up some of that when he figures out what works and what doesn't. But that's always going to be who he is. You don't want to coach that out of him. If you thought you were getting an overly physical player who plays with a nasty edge, I can see why you're disappointed.

Edited December 13, 2015 by pASabreFan

[SwampD]

 

HE SET UP A ###### GOAL!!! Now I'm getting mad.

He did?

 

Hmmm. Interesting. He isn't listed as having an assist in the box score.

[wjag]

Not wrong, just not accurately. Off-sides, especially at the fastest level of the game, is almost impossible to see in real time. You have to take it for what it is. It simply isn't meant to be scrutinized beyond the level of real time human perception. Anything more intensive is a bastardization of the game. 

 

 

+1

 

I think this summarizes things well.  Obvious situations where the puck came across the line and was brought back in, ok.  Obvious situations where the guy was on the other side of the line.  Split second judgement of timing, skate up/down, is carrying it too far.

[PASabreFan]

Best take on this yet.

And that is why affixing blame on a particular player on that play is a waste.

(Even though I suspect that if 12 was carrying the puck and 15 was offside a few posters would be singing a different tune.)

The just turned 19 year old gets some slack. The journeyman doesn't.

He did?

 

Hmmm. Interesting. He isn't listed as having an assist in the box score.

Wrong again, my crooning buddy old pal.

 

 

EDIT: ACK! I will leave the graphic up anyway. Wow, that thing is a cluster and a half.

Edited December 13, 2015 by pASabreFan

[wjag]

 

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I had to step out last night, so I did not see the end of the game.  By the time I got back, I saw this.  I admit staring at it for a few seconds.  I knew something was wrong about it, but it took me a few seconds to figure out what it was.  

[dudacek]

The just turned 19 year old gets some slack. The journeyman doesn't.

 

There it is, the forum's bias in a nutshell. Edited December 13, 2015 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

There it is, the forum's bias in a nutshell.

Not true. We'd be just as initially-critical of Eichel, then like with Gionta, we'd realize how close the play was and how stupid the rule is and let it go. You act like this forum hasn't spent the last month saying Jack looked like crap. He did. Shiny new toy syndrome is not a problem on this board no matter how many times people say it is.

[spndnchz]

I don't have a problem with the rule.  It will even out over time.  If I could be critical of anything, it is the small monitors they give the refs to look at replays on.  This is a billion dollar industry and we have them looking at tiny screens to see if a play is onsides.  They need the latest in HD tech and they should have it.

Those little tablets have that new super hd screen. 10,000i or something.

[PASabreFan]

I wonder if the competition committees and the GMs understimated how good the teams would be at deciding when to challenge a call. Bettman said they wanted to correct the egregious mistakes. Those can be seen with the naked eye in real time. Maybe no one anticipated that people upstairs could so quickly figure out a play was one inch offside.

 

So, here's another idea. Give the coach a buzzer or whatever. If he doesn't challenge the call within 10 seconds of it happening, there's no review.

[dudacek]

Not true. We'd be just as initially-critical of Eichel, then like with Gionta, we'd realize how close the play was and how stupid the rule is and let it go. You act like this forum hasn't spent the last month saying Jack looked like crap. He did. Shiny new toy syndrome is not a problem on this board no matter how many times people say it is.

That might be true if you were speaking for yourself.

Over the course of the season, Gionta has received far more criticism than his play warrants, Eichel far less.

I think pA did a good job summarizing why.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

He'll clean up some of that when he figures out what works and what doesn't. But that's always going to be who he is. You don't want to coach that out of him. If you thought you were getting an overly physical player who plays with a nasty edge, I can see why you're disappointed.

I hope so. I agree with most now that him and Kane on the same line are a waste.

 

Either Eichel is so brilliant that nobody else can understand him thus no assists, or Eichel is playing too much dipsy doodle on his own.

 

Until it gets figured out Id still keep him on the power play because it is a slow half court game, but Id put him on a line with Foligno and Deslauriers. Why waste playmakers on a line with him if he is going to coast to coast it all the time and take perimeter shots? Give him a couple of guys who can skate but will go to the dirty area to pick up rebounds and set screens. You could then roll 4 lines that are all above average and compliment each other.

 

Eichel- Foligno-Deslauriers

ROR-Kane-McGinn

Girgs-Reinhart-Ennis

Legwand-Moulson-Gionta

 

You can mix the combos, but all can score, play some defense, and have effort.

 

I'm not saying punish him, I'm saying admit what you have at this point and make the most of it.

[Randall Flagg]

That's an interesting idea. And when he does dish it to his wings, well, those guys have shown they can score (with ROR) as well as any other winger this year outside of that top line.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

That's an interesting idea. And when he does dish it to his wings, well, those guys have shown they can score (with ROR) as well as any other winger this year outside of that top line.

Thanks

 

Yeah, they can both skate and score a little. Protection as well.

 

You never have a mismatch then. All the lines can play defense and have some playmaking and sniper. If you can find another top 3 dman, do the same in back. Ristolainen- Georges, Bogosian- Pysyk, New Guy - Franson/Weber/McCabe depending on the team you play.

 

Your skill guys still get extra minutes on the powerplay and the PK can roll as usual. Hopefully it keeps guys fresh longer into games and the season.

[PASabreFan]

I hope so. I agree with most now that him and Kane on the same line are a waste.

 

Either Eichel is so brilliant that nobody else can understand him thus no assists, or Eichel is playing too much dipsy doodle on his own.

 

Until it gets figured out Id still keep him on the power play because it is a slow half court game, but Id put him on a line with Foligno and Deslauriers. Why waste playmakers on a line with him if he is going to coast to coast it all the time and take perimeter shots? Give him a couple of guys who can skate but will go to the dirty area to pick up rebounds and set screens. You could then roll 4 lines that are all above average and compliment each other.

 

Eichel- Foligno-Deslauriers

ROR-Kane-McGinn

Girgs-Reinhart-Ennis

Legwand-Moulson-Gionta

 

You can mix the combos, but all can score, play some defense, and have effort.

 

I'm not saying punish him, I'm saying admit what you have at this point and make the most of it.

Did you see the perfect dish he gave to Kane in the heart of the slot? It hit the back boards. How many of those have there been this season? Perimeter shots -- two of them missed by an eyelash last night. The kid is a sniper.

 

I see a lot of what you're seeing and I'm not putting his Titleists in the ball washer. But I think you've got a stereotype of Eichel going that's a bit off from reality. Fancy-boy puck hog who admires his own shot. "What you have at this point" is a far cry from what you will have in a year or two. You don't want to do anything to alter that trajectory. He doesn't belong on a fourth line with wingers who have a combined five goals this season.

[musichunch]

Couple thoughts:

 

1. I feel like the offsides rules was implemented on purpose in order to disallow goals which result in a score the NHL doesn't want. For example, the goal that was disallowed last night resulted in the game extending into OT, which keeps 3rd period advertising slots more valuable. It also gives the NHL-favored LA Kings another point in the standings.

 

2. I was looking at the standings and I couldn't understand why so many teams were bunched in within a few points. The Sabres SEEM like a playoff contender, but the standings tell me there are 10 other teams just like them. I think the NHL is purposely creating rules in order to extend games and keep them as close as possible, exactly like how the NFL does. The reason it feels like the Sabres are toe to toe with every team, is because nearly every team is toe to toe with every team. Not including 3-4 "winners" and 3-4 "losers". Got to have some of those every year.

 

3. Eichel is SOFTER THAN DOWNY PAPER TOWELS. I hope that it's just because he's 19, but Reinhart has twice the balls Eichel has. I don't know if he's the best hockey player on the team but he's definitely the best figure skater in Buffalo since Kristi Yamaguchi came to town. I refuse to bow down to someone who is afraid of getting a scratch on his forearm.

 

4. Risto is the first player in a Sabres uniform to make Lucic question his manhood. It got to a point that other LA Kings were taking shots at Risto in order to rescue Lucic's confidence. Rob Ray saw it and even mentioned it on TV. 

 

5. When did Rick and the gang stop being homers and start being pro-NHL first? During the offsides review it was like they were TRYING to find a reason to disallow the goal. Sounds like somebody got a memo reminding them who really writes their checks. 

[WildCard]

Did you see the perfect dish he gave to Kane in the heart of the slot? It hit the back boards. How many of those have there been this season? Perimeter shots -- two of them missed by an eyelash last night. The kid is a sniper.

 

I see a lot of what you're seeing and I'm not putting his Titleists in the ball washer. But I think you've got a stereotype of Eichel going that's a bit off from reality. Fancy-boy puck hog who admires his own shot. "What you have at this point" is a far cry from what you will have in a year or two. You don't want to do anything to alter that trajectory. He doesn't belong on a fourth line with wingers who have a combined five goals this season.

Well said

That might be true if you were speaking for yourself.

Over the course of the season, Gionta has received far more criticism than his play warrants, Eichel far less.

I think pA did a good job summarizing why.

Is it really bias to consider the 36 year old captain should have more criticism than the 19 year old rookie? Especially when the captain has warranted that criticism? 

 

Gionta and Weber aren't singled out for some arbitrary reason

[qwksndmonster]

For all the Eichel is soft stuff:  He's been brutal in the past month or so, but a little better 2 games ago and much better last night.  There was one play where he took a beating in the slot and got a hot wrister off (he probably should've kept it an extra second to let Moulson get to the net, but who can plan for slow man Matt?).

[dudacek]

Is it really bias to consider the 36 year old captain should have more criticism than the 19 year old rookie?

Seriously? I read all the offseason threads just like you did.

Is there a single person on this board who expected Gionta to be better than Eichel this season?

I'd say Gionta has played much closer to expectations than Jack has.

Edited December 14, 2015 by dudacek

[WildCard]

Seriously? I read all the offseason threads just like you did.

Is there a single person on this board who expected Gionta to be better than Eichel this season?

I'd say Gionta has played much closer to expectations than Jack has.

There are plenty of players on this team that are new and/or young, and they either get or don't get criticism based on their play. Same with the old people that are either new/young. 

[dudacek]

There are plenty of players on this team that are new and/or young, and they either get or don't get criticism based on their play. Same with the old people that are either new/young.

 

Im not sure I understand the post, but I think you are trying to say the amount of praise or criticism a player gets basically is equal to how well that player plays?

 

Who has received more praise this year, Gorges or Pysyk? Johnson or Ullmark?

Who has received more grief Gionta or Girgensons? Ennis or Kane?

 

The more likely a fan is to see a player as part of the future, the more likely that player will be cut some slack.

[WildCard]

Im not sure I understand the post, but I think you are trying to say the amount of praise or criticism a player gets basically is equal to how well that player plays?

 

Who has received more praise this year, Gorges or Pysyk? Johnson or Ullmark?

Who has received more grief Gionta or Girgensons? Ennis or Kane?

 

The more likely a fan is to see a player as part of the future, the more likely that player will be cut some slack.

Well I think Ullmark is better than Johnson, so there's that, and I think Pysyk is better than Gorges. Gionta has played more poorly than Girgensons, and Grigensons had a ton of grief at the beginning of the year. Ennis has played much worse than Kane, and other posters have questioned if Kane has any hockey IQ at all, or if he's just injured all the time. Bogosian, who is young and here for awhile, is also called out every GDT, and Larsson, who is young and many thought could be a solid piece for this team only last year, has been also received harsh views. 

 

McGinn is a UFA next year, but has gotten a ton of praise. Legwand has had equal criticism and praise, depending on his play, despite him being older and not knowing how long he's going to be here. We know we have Moulson for a long time, and that dude has been torn apart because he's played terribly. Eichel gets blame, maybe not as much as some want but he's been called out for his feet by more than one of us since we watched him in the WJC. Also his lack of passing.

 

There are about 3 players who don't get blame regularly, and they are our best and most consistent players; Riso, ROR, and Reinhart. Even Risto was called out for 2 terrible games awhile back, and Reinhart for the first 10 games or so.

Edited December 14, 2015 by WildCard

[dudacek]

I think Ullmark is better than Johnson, but he hasn't played better.

I love Pysyk. He has not, by any measure, played better than Gorges.

Gionta has had a ton of grief, more than anyone. Girgensons has had some murmurs. Not sure what measuring stick says Gionta has been much worse.

Kane's numbers and issues have been similar to Ennis. No one has started a Kane has to go thread.

Flip the goals and assists and Moulsons numbers are almost identical to St. Samson, who is apparently the second coming.

 

Maybe we are remembering different posts, but to me the trend is pretty obvious.

Edited December 14, 2015 by dudacek