Eichel vs. McDavid

[pi2000]

 Eichel is more pro-ready, he's stronger and bigger than McDavid at this stage.    McDavid will catch up, but it will take time.   IMO McDavid ends his career with more points, but who really knows... they'll be close, so much depends on if they can stay healthy and who their surrounding cast is.    Edmonton seems to be doing things the right way now, legit HC, better goalie, help on D, etc... they'll be better.    

[rakish]

 Eichel is more pro-ready, he's stronger and bigger than McDavid at this stage.    McDavid will catch up, but it will take time.   IMO McDavid ends his career with more points, but who really knows... they'll be close, so much depends on if they can stay healthy and who their surrounding cast is.    Edmonton seems to be doing things the right way now, legit HC, better goalie, help on D, etc... they'll be better.    

 

This is backward, different styles of play have different developmental arcs.  McDavid is a better MacKinnon, he's at the top of his game, as MacKinnon was at 18.  McDavid doesn't need to get stronger, it's not his game.  Eichel plays a stronger game, and he will get better with age.  He's a better Toews, who improved a lot from where he was drafted.

 

Surprisingly, they are almost the same size.

[musichunch]

I think Eichel is winning ROY. 

 

The best example I can think of is Carmelo and Lebron in 2003. Super close rookie year that Lebron won out (and it was questionable). Then around year 3 or 4 Lebron pulled away and reached a level Carmelo couldn't dream of. 

 

I think McDavid will be the same. I think he's going to blow Crosby out of the water. He has top 5-10 all-time hockey skills. Eichel has HOF skills with consistent 50 goal, 100 point potential. But I see McDavid hitting 120-140 point totals. Just stuff nobody thinks is possible in this era. 100+ assist seasons. Regular 4-5+ point games.

Edited October 1, 2015 by musichunch

[LGR4GM]

6 players who could beat McDavid for the calder

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/connor-mcdavid-calder-trophy-favourite-rookie-of-the-year-odds-oilers-jack-eichel-sam-bennett-reinhart-max-domi-nikolaj-ehlers-strome-virtanen/

1. Jack Eichel
2. Sam Bennett
3. Max Domi
4. Artemi Panarin (I had to look him up but he's 23yr old Russian kid)
5. Jake Virtanen
6. Nikolaj Ehlers
7. Reinhart, Strome, and Rantanen honorable mentions

[MattPie]

I think Eichel is winning ROY. 

 

The best example I can think of is Carmelo and Lebron in 2003. Super close rookie year that Lebron won out (and it was questionable). Then around year 3 or 4 Lebron pulled away and reached a level Carmelo couldn't dream of. 

 

I think McDavid will be the same. I think he's going to blow Crosby out of the water. He has top 5-10 all-time hockey skills. Eichel has HOF skills with consistent 50 goal, 100 point potential. But I see McDavid hitting 120-140 point totals. Just stuff nobody thinks is possible in this era. 100+ assist seasons. Regular 4-5+ point games.

 

When you do the current-NHL discount (20%) on those numbers, Eichel's seem reasonable (40G, 80PTS) but I still think McDavids are a little too high.

[pi2000]

This is backward, different styles of play have different developmental arcs.  McDavid is a better MacKinnon, he's at the top of his game, as MacKinnon was at 18.  McDavid doesn't need to get stronger, it's not his game.  Eichel plays a stronger game, and he will get better with age.  He's a better Toews, who improved a lot from where he was drafted.

 

Surprisingly, they are almost the same size.

 

We shall see.   Eichel said he weighed 215 coming into camp.    He measured 6'3 at the combine.    Connor McDavid is 2 inches shorter and weighs almost 25lbs less at 190lbs.   That makes a big difference in the NHL, skating through checks, etc...  McDavid won't be able to just skate by eveybody like he did against smaller competition in the OHL where you're playing aginst 16-20 year olds.    Eichel was playing against men, div I college players avg 23 years old.    It would've been interesting to see what kind of numbers Eichel would put in juniors and what McDavid's number would be like playing NCAA.    

[rakish]

the draft combine stuff had both Eichel and McDavid at 195.  I'm surprised Eichel is now 20 pounds heavier

[3putt]

We shall see.   Eichel said he weighed 215 coming into camp.    He measured 6'3 at the combine.    Connor McDavid is 2 inches shorter and weighs almost 25lbs less at 190lbs.   That makes a big difference in the NHL, skating through checks, etc...  McDavid won't be able to just skate by eveybody like he did against smaller competition in the OHL where you're playing aginst 16-20 year olds.    Eichel was playing against men, div I college players avg 23 years old.    It would've been interesting to see what kind of numbers Eichel would put in juniors and what McDavid's number would be like playing NCAA.    

McDavid will blow by more people than you think. He is every bit the skater as Jack and better in some.areas. 

[DR HOLLIDAY]

I hate stuff like this.......Let Jack be Jack, best thing to happen to the Sabres in years........ :beer:

[musichunch]

When you do the current-NHL discount (20%) on those numbers, Eichel's seem reasonable (40G, 80PTS) but I still think McDavids are a little too high.

 

That's the thing. I don't think the NHL discount will apply to McDavid. When I say 120-140, I think about what kind of numbers Gretzky would but up in today's NHL and subtract a little. 

[3putt]

This is the equivalent of two rednecks arguing over ford v chevy ...If it works for you great. But the other guys truck is pretty damn good too. 

[Neo]

6 players who could beat McDavid for the calder

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/connor-mcdavid-calder-trophy-favourite-rookie-of-the-year-odds-oilers-jack-eichel-sam-bennett-reinhart-max-domi-nikolaj-ehlers-strome-virtanen/

 

• Jack Eichel
• Sam Bennett
• Max Domi
• Artemi Panarin (I had to look him up but he's 23yr old Russian kid)
• Jake Virtanen
• Nikolaj Ehlers
• Reinhart, Strome, and Rantanen honorable mentions

Is it relatively universal that Bennett's ahead of Reinhart at this early juncture? I've asked you about Sam, before. This post is not a suggestion of regret!

 

Edit: Hockey's Future has Bennett at 8/C and Reinhart at 8/B. Looks like the reports have been updated fairly recently. Sometimes that board gets dated. I find it helpful.

Edited October 2, 2015 by N'eo

[3putt]

Is it relatively universal that Bennett's ahead of Reinhart at this early juncture? I've asked you about Sam, before. This post is not a suggestion of regret!

Edit: Hockey's Future has Bennett at 8/C and Reinhart at 8/B. Looks like the reports have been updated fairly recently. Sometimes that board gets dated. I find it helpful.

Not necessarily. Bennet had a great playoff run. But he was largely one dimensional, though very good offensively. Samson will be a more complete player, though he will have to adjust to the physicality of playing on the wing if he ends up there. Board play is more physical.

[K-9]

McDavid will blow by more people than you think. He is every bit the skater as Jack and better in some.areas. 

Agreed. That kid has jets for legs. Against Sault St. Marie in the playoffs he was skating through the neutral zone, one on two vs. the two back-skating D men. As he approached the blue line, he lofted the puck over the D men and about 20 feet behind them. As he did that, he turned on the jets, beat both to the puck, and got a quality chance on their goalie. 

 

Just an amazing play from EVERY aspect that a hockey play can be made. Never saw anything like that. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

[Thorny]

Eichel and McDavid are very different players in terms of style but much closer than anyone wants to admit in terms of talent level. 

 

 

I don't think we can look past the prospect labels yet because it's only preseason and I doubt many of us have watched all of McDavid's games.

Is it this, or is it that some on the other side can't remove the Sabres-tinted goggles? I mean, if we had won the lottery and drafted McDavid, I don't think there's any way an overwhelming majority of the board would be voting Eichel to have the better rookie season.

 

i think it is both of these things. We are biased, but the gap between them is a lot closer than many in the (Canadian) media will have you believe.

 

 Eichel is more pro-ready, he's stronger and bigger than McDavid at this stage.    McDavid will catch up, but it will take time.   IMO McDavid ends his career with more points, but who really knows... they'll be close, so much depends on if they can stay healthy and who their surrounding cast is.    Edmonton seems to be doing things the right way now, legit HC, better goalie, help on D, etc... they'll be better.    

 

McDavid will never be quite as big, or as strong as Jack Eichel.

 

I think Eichel is winning ROY. 

 

The best example I can think of is Carmelo and Lebron in 2003. Super close rookie year that Lebron won out (and it was questionable). Then around year 3 or 4 Lebron pulled away and reached a level Carmelo couldn't dream of. 

 

I think McDavid will be the same. I think he's going to blow Crosby out of the water. He has top 5-10 all-time hockey skills. Eichel has HOF skills with consistent 50 goal, 100 point potential. But I see McDavid hitting 120-140 point totals. Just stuff nobody thinks is possible in this era. 100+ assist seasons. Regular 4-5+ point games.

 

 

That's the thing. I don't think the NHL discount will apply to McDavid. When I say 120-140, I think about what kind of numbers Gretzky would but up in today's NHL and subtract a little. 

 

I am not convinced McDavid is a better prospect than Crosby, never mind being able to put up more points than him in an NHL where the scoring is a lot lower than when Sid started out. When the leading scorer had 87 points last year, there is no way McDavid even sniffs 140 points in that NHL. 120, like Sid did, maybe. But I wouldn't hold my breath with the way the game is now.

 

McDavid is not Gretzky. Subtract a lot.

 

Honestly, McDavid is an amazing player. If I had to pick, I think he ends up with more career points than Jack. But realistically, expecting him to somehow blow Crosby's numbers out of the water, (and people seem to already be forgetting how hyped Crosby was (and he delivered)) all while scoring is trending down, could lead to disappointment. A fairly consistent 90-110 points scorer I think is a reasonable hope for McDavid.

 

He does remind me of Ovechkin in some ways, the shiftiness. Players like that can, and sometimes do, get shut down when they going gets tough around playoff time. Did anyone see what the Oshawa Generals did to McDavid in the OHL playoffs? They shut him down. With great team defense. Yes, McDavid is a kid. But they were kids too.  I remember when a young Dion Phaneuf shut down Ovi in the WJC Gold Medal game. Ovechkin's goal totals have gotten lowered significantly on more than one occasion once the playoffs started, last year being another example. But again, Ovi is a great player. One of the greatest goal scorers of all-time.

 

Agreed. That kid has jets for legs. Against Sault St. Marie in the playoffs he was skating through the neutral zone, one on two vs. the two back-skating D men. As he approached the blue line, he lofted the puck over the D men and about 20 feet behind them. As he did that, he turned on the jets, beat both to the puck, and got a quality chance on their goalie. 

 

Just an amazing play from EVERY aspect that a hockey play can be made. Never saw anything like that. 

 

GO SABRES!!!

 

Ennis did this a year ago. Maybe 2.

[Randall Flagg]

I am convinced that McDavid is a better prospect than Crosby was, and that McDavid might be right now the best skater I've ever seen in my life, with his pipsqueak 18 year old legs and core that have never seen professional training (Gary Roberts in between dozens of junior games doesn't count). 

Edited October 2, 2015 by Randall Flagg

[WildCard]

I am convinced that McDavid is a better prospect than Crosby was, and that McDavid might be right now the best skater I've ever seen in my life, with his pipsqueak 18 year old legs and core that have never seen professional training (Gary Roberts in between dozens of junior games don't count). 

Yeap, sorry Thorny, gotta agree with Flagg here. McDavid is the best skater I've ever seen, his feet are impossibly quick, and he is just so explosive. 

 

FWIW I went back and looked at Crosby's rookie year. No joke my jaw literally dropped. I definitely recommend watching it, as a hockey fan. 

[Thorny]

I am convinced that McDavid is a better prospect than Crosby was, and that McDavid might be right now the best skater I've ever seen in my life, with his pipsqueak 18 year old legs and core that have never seen professional training (Gary Roberts in between dozens of junior games don't count). 

 

 

Yeap, sorry Thorny, gotta agree with Flagg here. McDavid is the best skater I've ever seen, his feet are impossibly quick, and he is just so explosive. 

 

FWIW I went back and looked at Crosby's rookie year. No joke my jaw literally dropped. I definitely recommend watching it, as a hockey fan. 

 

Fair enough. But my point is that I don't think there is a large gap one way or the other. Their junior numbers/achievements certainly don't dictate one. If McDavid is a little bit better, maybe it's enough to offset the lower scoring of today's NHL, in which case, maybe he matches Sid's numbers.

 

Let's look at it this way. McDavid is no less prepared entering the NHL at 18 than Crosby was. Is McDavid going to score 102 points this year? Anyone wish to make that bet? I don't think if McDavid is as much better than Crosby as some seem to think, it will take him longer to hit his stride than Crosby did. It would probably start now, yes?

 

If McDavid can't come in to the league his rookie year and match what Sid did his rookie year, I don't see why we should expect him to as the years go on. McDavid will obviously get better, but Crosby did too.

 

Now, I'm not saying McDavid isn't as good if he doesn't reach Crosby's numbers. But I find it highly unlikely he is so much better that he will be able to somehow surpass Sid's numbers by a wide amount.

 

McDavid isn't going to score 102 points this year. It's not a lack of talent in comparison to Crosby that will hold him back, it's just the nature of today's game.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Thorny

[musichunch]

I think 102 is possible for McDavid. Regardless Gretzky tied for the Art Ross his rookie year so I don't need McDavid to break 100 right away.

 

Looking at the career arc of the all time greats, I expect a top 5 finish this year and domination starting his 2nd or 3rd year. That's if he's going to be a top 10 all time type player, a level above Crosby.

[Thorny]

I think 102 is possible for McDavid. Regardless Gretzky tied for the Art Ross his rookie year so I don't need McDavid to break 100 right away.

 

Looking at the career arc of the all time greats, I expect a top 5 finish this year and domination starting his 2nd or 3rd year. That's if he's going to be a top 10 all time type player, a level above Crosby.

 

I feel like sometimes people forget that Crosby is 5th ALL-TIME in points per game scoring. This, considering that scoring is so much lower nowadays, is nothing short of mind-boggling.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Thorny

[WildCard]

Fair enough. But my point is that I don't think there is a large gap one way or the other. Their junior numbers/achievements certainly don't dictate one. If McDavid is a little bit better, maybe it's enough to offset the lower scoring of today's NHL, in which case, maybe he matches Sid's numbers.

 

Let's look at it this way. McDavid is no less prepared entering the NHL at 18 than Crosby was. Is McDavid going to score 102 points this year? Anyone wish to make that bet? I don't think if McDavid is as much better than Crosby as some seem to think, it will take him longer to hit his stride than Crosby did. It would probably start now, yes?

 

If McDavid can't come in to the league his rookie year and match what Sid did his rookie year, I don't see why we should expect him to as the years go on. McDavid will obviously get better, but Crosby did too.

 

Now, I'm not saying McDavid isn't as good if he doesn't reach Crosby's numbers. But I find it highly unlikely he is so much better that he will be able to somehow surpass Sid's numbers by a wide amount.

 

McDavid isn't going to score 102 points this year. It's not a lack of talent in comparison to Crosby that will hold him back, it's just the nature of today's game.

We call this begging the question my good man  :flirt:

 

(I think, I stopped taking philosophy 2 classes in)

 

I think 102 is possible for McDavid. Regardless Gretzky tied for the Art Ross his rookie year so I don't need McDavid to break 100 right away.

 

Looking at the career arc of the all time greats, I expect a top 5 finish this year and domination starting his 2nd or 3rd year. That's if he's going to be a top 10 all time type player, a level above Crosby.

McDavid will not score 102 this year unless the league seriously, seriously starts calling penalties again. Weave posted the stat in the Around thread a few days back about how much it's fallen, it's ###### absurd. 

 

 

These highlights showcase exactly how the league has changed. Anyone think Crosby gets nearly that close to a defender with the puck to make all those moves without being interfered with? Or that he has that open space in the slot to move about without getting his head knocked off? 

Edited October 2, 2015 by WildCard

[Thorny]

Sidney Crosby, right now, is a top 5 all-time scorer. What if he played during the days when there were so many more goals being scored?

[WildCard]

Sidney Crosby, right now, is a top 5 all-time scorer. What if he played during the days when there were so many more goals being scored?

No, he ain't. He's not even the leader in points for the last 10 years. Though would be without injury

Edited October 2, 2015 by WildCard

[Thorny]

We call this begging the question my good man  :flirt:

 

(I think, I stopped taking philosophy 2 classes in)

 

McDavid will not score 102 this year unless the league seriously, seriously starts calling penalties again. Weave posted the stat in the Around thread a few days back about how much it's fallen, it's ###### absurd. 

 

 

These highlights showcase exactly how the league has changed. Anyone think Crosby gets nearly that close to a defender with the puck to make all those moves without being interfered with? Or that he has that open space in the slot to move about without getting his head knocked off? 

 

And that is exactly it. The way the game is called is working against McDavid, Eichel, and all scoring forwards. It's just the way things are now. It will be exceedingly difficult for top scoring numbers of the past to be equaled.

 

This is why Crosby being top 5 all time in PPG is simply astounding to me. The guy is the real deal.

No he ain't

 

Yes, he is. In points per game, he is 5th all time.

[WildCard]

And that is exactly it. The way the game is called is working against McDavid, Eichel, and all scoring forwards. It's just the way things are now. It will be exceedingly difficult for top scoring numbers of the past to be equaled.

 

This is why Crosby being top 5 all time in PPG is simply astounding to me. The guy is the real deal.

 

Yes, he is. In points per game, he is 5th all time.

You're right, but that's why it makes it difficult to evaluate Gretzky vs. Crosby vs. McDavid. I wasn't around for Gretzky, but I was around for the other two, and IMO McDavid is better. We'll never be able to judge them on points, but rather how they changed the game. People point to Gretzky's inflated stats all the time, but we all recognize that he's truly the Great One because he put up numbers that, at that time, weren't even comparable to anyone else, and he changed the game to do it. 

 

Crosby just has never had such a significant gap in his play between him and his peers to ever warrant a comparison to Gretzky IMO. 

 

 

He may be 5th in that, but that does not make him an all-time scoring leader. I know it may be seen as nitpicking, but to me it's a big distinction. 

Edited October 2, 2015 by WildCard