Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 The comments in the Ehrhoff thread with sarcastic mentions of Pegula's meddling led me to research this..... Whether or not you want to make fun of those people who felt Terry Pegula was taking an overactive role in the assembly of his hockey team, I present the facts. Terry Pegula himself said: 1) He talked to many NHL executives and was told Darcy Regier was a great GM 2) His top adviser Ken Saywer called Regier a "Hockey Genius" 3) Pegula liked Regier because he could "work with him". 4) Pegula recently said within the past 8 months, "Someone please tell me what Regier has ever done wrong." 5) Pegula's daughter is on video saying her father went to Regier praising that "Ehrhoff fella". 6) Pegula admitted Regier was prone to placating to his owner...."Sometimes the painter has his brush hand held." 7) I'm sure I could get to 10, but I will be nice in the spirit of Murray Heaven Pegula took over the team in the second half of the 2010-11 season. I will not include this for financial costs as people put their money up ahead of time. As of July 1st 2014, a season ticket holder under the entire Pegula ownership will have been committed to 4 seasons of Sabres hockey. We will use the following data for building the model. Yes, I know that not everybody goes to every game, or has the same number of seats, and some sell to the aftermarket, but for the purpose of this idea, I am giving what the average ticket holder has forgone by owning season tickets. I am not counting preseason or rebates...which are pretty much a wash....and I am also rounding down costs. Cost of a pair of season tickets the past 4 years: Section............2011-12............2012-13.............2013-14............2014-15 Club................$7500.............$8100................$8400.............$8700 Lower Bowl II.......$4400.............$4900................$5000.............$5200 Nosebleeds..........$1800.............$2000................$2100.............$2200 The common measuring stick for opportunity cost of investment is the S+P 500 Index. This is what most pensions, 401k's, etc. use as the baseline. On July 1st when season tickets are committed to, deposited on, and paid within 90 days.....here is where the S+P 500 was: 2011: 1030 2012: 1340 2013: 1630 2014: 1960 Assuming that instead of buying a pair of season tickets, the season ticket holder instead put said funds into an S+P 500 index on July 1st of each year that Pegula has owned the team, with many options being tax-free or deferred, here is the total amount of money that would be in your account as of today: 300 Level Nosebleeds: $11,075 100 Level II: $26,750 Club Level: $44,900 There was no need to add playoff invoices to this study....... Yes, Murray Heaven is here. That doesn't mean Hockey Heaven, #Blueprint, and Ron Rolston never happened. So please.....while it is fun to joke and almost everyone is a good sport.....there are some very real consequences to the decisions that have been made to date....and the average fan doesn't get to write off 40% of those mistakes against natural gas profits........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Yes, but one could do that for every purchase, let alone every entertainment purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Totally sucks for us that pegula bought the Sabres at the end of the recession. If he had bought them in 2007 these numbers would look way better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Why are you torturing me like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 seriously though, I'm a season ticket holder, and despite the cost increases and the product failings, it's still been worth every dollar to be able to spend time with my dad and my brother and bring my 6-y-o to the games. worth. every. dollar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Yes, but one could do that for every purchase, let alone every entertainment purchase. For sure.... The question is, how much entertainment have you received? If you went to a concert for $107 and weren't entertained, would you purchase tickets for the next 163 performances of the same artist at the same price? Totally sucks for us that pegula bought the Sabres at the end of the recession. If he had bought them in 2007 these numbers would look way better. Would you like me to go back to 2007???? I can run those numbers for anyone who has kept their tickets since July 1, 2007...... In fact....this will be fun!!!! Why are you torturing me like this? I'm sorry. Between the directive to not send threads off on tangents, and the sarcastic banter in the Ehrhoff thread.....I was inspired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 For sure.... The question is, how much entertainment have you received? If you went to a concert for $107 and weren't entertained, would you purchase tickets for the next 163 performances of the same artist at the same price? Would you like me to go back to 2007???? I can run those numbers for anyone who has kept their tickets since July 1, 2007...... In fact....this will be fun!!!! please do the entire OSP regime to prove how much better things were under Quinn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 For sure.... The question is, how much entertainment have you received? If you went to a concert for $107 and weren't entertained, would you purchase tickets for the next 163 performances of the same artist at the same price? Would you like me to go back to 2007???? I can run those numbers for anyone who has kept their tickets since July 1, 2007...... In fact....this will be fun!!!! The S & P 500 is an emotionless investment... Life in the first few years did not bring the returns that fans had hoped. With the new structure, perhaps that will change. I like the way we are headed and therefore am extracting some entertainment value. Then again, I don't buy tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Geez oh man. You just got me thinking "what if I didn't spend all that money on booze the last 3 years". Although if you know me there is some true entertainment value there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 This is a great thread. I feel terrible for all of the people who were forced to buy Buffalo Sabres season tickets these past few years. Oh, what's that? NO ONE was forced to buy season tickets? Literally everyone who bought them made that decision for themselves? OK, nevermind then. If a person wants to use their money for entertainment instead of investing, that's their call. They don't deserve any attention or sympathy if they realize in retrospect that they could have done something else. Also, why are these last four seasons so special? How much is every season ticket since 1970 worth now? What about the opportunity coat of just watching hockey versus using that time to work a second job to earn more money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 The S & P 500 is an emotionless investment... Life in the first few years did not bring the returns that fans had hoped. With the new structure, perhaps that will change. I like the way we are headed and therefore am extracting some entertainment value. Then again, I don't buy tickets. I understand....any "not-needed" purchase can be looked at this way. I decided to research this because even though there seems to be consensus the team is now headed in the right direction, I think the logical conclusion is that major mistakes were made by a few key people that has hampered the franchise for close to a decade. In 2008, I hand-wrote a note on an invoice from the Sabres threatening to cancel my seats if I didn't pay. It pretty much read, "Please be my guest, and blow it out your ###." I'm not going to sit back and let the past 7 years of suffering be met with ridicule towards those who were skeptical because the new regime now has had a guy on the job for a few months who seems to have a clue. I love it, and have said so multiple times. Geez oh man. You just got me thinking "what if I didn't spend all that money on booze the last 3 years". Although if you know me there is some true entertainment value there. Absolutely. I was a season ticket holder for 40% of my life until D-Day. There are plenty of entities that thank Darcy Regier, Larry Quinn, OSP, TP, TB, etc. Least of which are the Bacardi Family, Churchill Downs Inc., Phillip Morris, Svetlana and Olga from Niagara Falls, The Estate of Ralph Wilson, and dozens of others.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 I understand....any "not-needed" purchase can be looked at this way. I decided to research this because even though there seems to be consensus the team is now headed in the right direction, I think the logical conclusion is that major mistakes were made by a few key people that has hampered the franchise for close to a decade. In 2008, I hand-wrote a note on an invoice from the Sabres threatening to cancel my seats if I didn't pay. It pretty much read, "Please be my guest, and blow it out your ###." I'm not going to sit back and let the past 7 years of suffering be met with ridicule towards those who were skeptical because the new regime now has had a guy on the job for a few months who seems to have a clue. I love it, and have said so multiple times. It's the same refrain from every "unsuccessful" franchise across every major sport. People make mistakes. When we have a failure in engineering, we try to minimize the number of variables. Pegula sort of did that with Regier. Sure it wasted time, but he needed to get to the place most of us were already at all on his own. He got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 seriously though, I'm a season ticket holder, and despite the cost increases and the product failings, it's still been worth every dollar to be able to spend time with my dad and my brother and bring my 6-y-o to the games. worth. every. dollar. Understood. The tangential premise brought up in the Ehrhoff thread was that it was folly to criticize Pegula and suggest he was overactive and over-reaching in his early years as an owner. Somehow, he had just performed some noble act of fan amnesia by paying the last $18 million on a buyout of Ehrhoff, or what would equate to $450 for a person with a net worth of $100,000. So I just figured, why not figure out how much these mistakes cost the fans? I totally agree. I'd have more fun listening to polka on the radio with great auntie than going to a hockey game with her. We all have our bonds and values. It's the same refrain from every "unsuccessful" franchise across every major sport. People make mistakes. When we have a failure in engineerng, we try to m That's ironic :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Understood. The tangential premise brought up in the Ehrhoff thread was that it was folly to criticize Pegula and suggest he was overactive and over-reaching in his early years as an owner. Somehow, he had just performed some noble act of fan amnesia by paying the last $18 million on a buyout of Ehrhoff, or what would equate to $450 for a person with a net worth of $100,000. So I just figured, why not figure out how much these mistakes cost the fans? I totally agree. I'd have more fun listening to polka on the radio with great auntie than going to a hockey game with her. We all have our bonds and values. That's ironic :) Ha. It autosaved my post midway, but failed to post the final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Ha. It autosaved my post midway, but failed to post the final. I agree...he got there, and that's something to be excited about.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 It's the same refrain from every "unsuccessful" franchise across every major sport. People make mistakes. When we have a failure in engineering, we try to minimize the number of variables we change. Pegula sort of did that with Regier. Sure it wasted time, but he needed to get to the place most of us were already at all on his own. He got there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Not enjoying the experience? Sell your seats, give em to kids, mail them over to SABAH, cut your losses. But don't ask me to feel sorry for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) seriously though, I'm a season ticket holder, and despite the cost increases and the product failings, it's still been worth every dollar to be able to spend time with my dad and my brother and bring my 6-y-o to the games. worth. every. dollar. Opportunity value trumps opportunity cost. Every time. GO SABRES!!! Edited June 30, 2014 by K-9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted June 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 OK...I think my point was made and others made valid points as well which I agree with. For those interested in the current total value of a pair of Buffalo Sabres season tickets if invested in the S+P 500 on every July 1st since 2007.....and I threw in the 6 home playoff games for free...... 300 Level Nosebleeds: $21,900 100 Level II: $51,500 ............................................................................... Club Level: $87,800 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Not enjoying the experience? Sell your seats, give em to kids, mail them over to SABAH, cut your losses. But don't ask me to feel sorry for you. It is tough to spend big money to maintain one's place in line. Ronald McDonald House usually gets mine when I cannot sell them (which is increasingly often) and don't want to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 It is tough to spend big money to maintain one's place in line. Ronald McDonald House usually gets mine when I cannot sell them (which is increasingly often) and don't want to go. That's great. That's a very cool thing to do. Giving someone in that situation a few hours away from life's hardest moments is a very generous thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 That's great. That's a very cool thing to do. Giving someone in that situation a few hours away from life's hardest moments is a very generous thing. Often the kids aren't terminal. But you have a situation where parents--or possibly siblings who don't feel they're getting attention--are sitting in hospitals for too long and need a break. So since it's close to my home, I'll bring the tickets over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 Not enjoying the experience? Sell your seats, give em to kids, mail them over to SABAH, cut your losses. But don't ask me to feel sorry for you. That sounds a bit too much like, "Don't like the U.S.? Love it or leave it!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 seriously though, I'm a season ticket holder, and despite the cost increases and the product failings, it's still been worth every dollar to be able to spend time with my dad and my brother and bring my 6-y-o to the games. worth. every. dollar. I would concur, although in my case it has been with my son, a couple of daughters, my wife and some friends. There is no cost/ benefit analysis for those moments and isn't that the meaning of discretionary spending anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted June 30, 2014 Report Share Posted June 30, 2014 That's great. That's a very cool thing to do. Giving someone in that situation a few hours away from life's hardest moments is a very generous thing. Often the kids aren't terminal. But you have a situation where parents--or possibly siblings who don't feel they're getting attention--are sitting in hospitals for too long and need a break. So since it's close to my home, I'll bring the tickets over. You can donate the tickets direct through the Sabres "My Sabres Tickets" site too. I did plenty of games last year. Now that I have a real job it's a nice write-off complete with receipt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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