That Aud Smell Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Gilmore can't return soon enough. I saw the stats when Rogers was targeted - holy smokes - it was like 6/9, 300 yards, a 20+ DPI, and 2 scores. As for EJ, I still think he can and will continue to get better. That was a rough outing. Hackett got his lunch handed to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 The OLINE should donate their paychecks to charity because they sure didn't earn them yesterday. The DLINE should return their paychecks to their owner because they sure didn't earn them yesterday. Rogers should have been given air fare to Newark and a plane ticket to his home town. The Coaching staff should burn their playbooks and get rid of that inane hurry up offense, If that is the real Manuel we saw yesterday, I say give Tuel a shot. From what I can tell, the Bills have one blue chip starter in their 22 starters and that is Kiko. 1/22 is pretty sad. It took a grand total of one game where Manuel really, really looked like a rookie for somebody to mention Jeff Tuel. Good lord. You watched Tuel in the preseason outside of that one miraculously non-terrible game, right? If he's the QB, we won't win a game. They need to find someone on the waiver wire or practice squad. The whole league has known about Rogers for a while. Last week Newton overthrew Ginn on 3 longballs where Rogers was on him. I could have sworn the refs were in on the Vegas line considering how lucky the Bills got with some calls. And for as mature as Manuel is, holy cow his mechanics are showing faulty. I don't think he's put his body into but 1 or 2 throws over 20 yards this season. He is flicking off his back foot...which leads to the accuracy issues. Throwing longballs like that is like trying to play darts from 2 1/2 times as far from the board with the same throwing motion. Touch is ok....but he is starting to look like the equivalent of a "dangler" in hockey. Go to the net big guy....you have the skillset. Which again, this was basically the scouting report on Manuel, wasn't it? All the talent in the world, but very raw in terms of mechanics and inconsistent on accuracy (part of the reason I wanted another QB option good enough to make him sit for awhile as a rookie). Games like this might happen without the offensive line forgetting training camp was over, but when they play like that, it's all but guaranteed that Manuel will look like a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Gilmore can't return soon enough. I saw the stats when Rogers was targeted - holy smokes - it was like 6/9, 300 yards, a 20+ DPI, and 2 scores. As for EJ, I still think he can and will continue to get better. That was a rough outing. Hackett got his lunch handed to him. Yep, as bad as EJ and the o-line looked, when McKelvin went down early our goose was cooked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Yep, as bad as EJ and the o-line looked, when McKelvin went down early our goose was cooked. Wonder if people who wanted McKelvin run out of town at any cost feel a bit foolish today? He's not a world beater by any stretch, but at least he's a legitimate NFL cornerback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Wonder if people who wanted McKelvin run out of town at any cost feel a bit foolish today? He's not a world beater by any stretch, but at least he's a legitimate NFL cornerback. Yes and I'd say for the first two weeks of this season he has looked like an above average NFL cornerback, a very pleasant surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Manuel's errors yesterday were not all based on the poor team around him or rookie mistakes. He made bad throws. He made terrible pre-snap reads, which can be corrected, but shouldn't need to be in a top-10 pick. The bad throws, though... I can't pin any hopes to this guy. We should be scouting QBs for next April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Manuel's errors yesterday were not all based on the poor team around him or rookie mistakes. He made bad throws. He made terrible pre-snap reads, which can be corrected, but shouldn't need to be in a top-10 pick. The bad throws, though... I can't pin any hopes to this guy. We should be scouting QBs for next April. Seems premature to me. Saying that "terrible pre-snap reads" can't be attributed to him being a rookie is a little ... confusing to me. Especially in view of the fact that everything I've read indicates that Rex brought the full Rex-otic package to his game plan yesterday. The fact that he managed to confuse a guy starting his 3rd NFL game does not overly concern me. Manuel made several terrific pre-snap reads against Carolina -- he's capable of getting that part of the game right. Also not sure why you're saying Manuel was a top-10 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Manuel's errors yesterday were not all based on the poor team around him or rookie mistakes. He made bad throws. He made terrible pre-snap reads, which can be corrected, but shouldn't need to be in a top-10 pick. The bad throws, though... I can't pin any hopes to this guy. We should be scouting QBs for next April. 1) He was the 16th overall pick :P 2) Seriously? He was raw coming out of college, basically every scouting report will tell you that. That's going to take time, and 3 games in (with only 1 true clunker) and we should be scouting QBs? Joe Flacco was also a mid-1st round pick, and his early body of work (as an individual, not the team winning on a great defense) was pretty awful. I'm not the biggest Joe Flacco fan, but he's easily light years better than anything the Bills have had since Kelly retired, save for a half season of Bledsoe playing godlike. The list of QBs who needed a year or two of playing time an development to become really good after struggling in year 1 is much longer than the list who came in year 1 and immediately looked like a franchise savior. Seems premature to me. Saying that "terrible pre-snap reads" can't be attributed to him being a rookie is a little ... confusing to me. Especially in view of the fact that everything I've read indicates that Rex brought the full Rex-otic package to his game plan yesterday. The fact that he managed to confuse a guy starting his 3rd NFL game does not overly concern me. Manuel made several terrific pre-snap reads against Carolina -- he's capable of getting that part of the game right. Also not sure why you're saying Manuel was a top-10 pick. Thank you. People shouldn't forget Rex Ryan is one of the best defensive coaches in the league, and has made even great QBs like Brady and Manning look average and confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Seems premature to me. Saying that "terrible pre-snap reads" can't be attributed to him being a rookie is a little ... confusing to me. Especially in view of the fact that everything I've read indicates that Rex brought the full Rex-otic package to his game plan yesterday. The fact that he managed to confuse a guy starting his 3rd NFL game does not overly concern me. Manuel made several terrific pre-snap reads against Carolina -- he's capable of getting that part of the game right. Also not sure why you're saying Manuel was a top-10 pick. Typing not so good. Those thoughts should have been separated, the pre-snap stuff is a rookie problem, the inability to throw passes of any distance with any consistency, is not a rookie problem. Should have said first round, not top 10. my apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 (edited) It took a grand total of one game where Manuel really, really looked like a rookie for somebody to mention Jeff Tuel. Good lord. You watched Tuel in the preseason outside of that one miraculously non-terrible game, right? If he's the QB, we won't win a game. Why not give him a look? A lot of what happened yesterday was on the OLINE, but Manuel owns it too. His scrambles (supposedly his strength) were horrendous. His throws, even with time, terrible. His elusiveness, non-existent. This is a throw-away year by all accounts. Why not give Tuel a look? Heck Cleveland threw their 3rd string in this weekend, on the road, after THE TRADE, and he looked pretty good. How do you know Tuel might not be better? Anyway, it is only a matter of time before Tuel gets in there. Apparently no one taught EJ how to slide. Edited September 23, 2013 by wjag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I'm all about giving QBs time to develop and learn the NFL game at NFL speed. I'm stating that EJ's specific problems are not of this type, he'll learn the reads, but he can't get himself into position to throw and make throws. When he scrambles he almost always puts the ball shoulder downfield, making it impossible to throw. When he does throw he fails to commit and hits feet or air. He does not have the mind-body mechanics of a top third QB. If you want to make the playoffs on a regular basis, you need a top third QB. This is not the droid we are looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Why not give him a look? A lot of what happened yesterday was on the OLINE, but Manuel owns it too. His scrambles (supposedly his strength) were horrendous. His throws, even with time, terrible. His elusiveness, non-existent. This is a throw-away year by all accounts. Why not give Tuel a look. Heck Cleveland threw their 3rd string in this weekend, on the road, after THE TRADE, and he looked pretty good. How do you know Tuel might not be better? Because Tuel doesn't have the talent to be an NFL starter--he had one decent game against 3rd stringers and then looked like a tire fire the rest of the time in preseason. What exactly has he shown you to indicate he could play, other than "he's not Manuel"? Also simple history. How many undrafted free agent QBs amount to anything? There's a reason not a single UDFA since the merger has started game 1--even if they ever turn into anything, they're certainly not ready as a rookie. Even if Manuel only has a 10% chance of becoming a good starter, I'll still lay the chips on that as opposed to the .00000001% chance Tuel becomes anything. The Cleveland case really isn't comparable because their starter was hurt and their alternative was Jason Campbell, who you know exactly what you'll get. If Manuel got hurt and we had the choice between Fitzpatrick and Tuel, sure, see what the kid has. But that's not the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I thought Manuel looked like a rookie yesterday. Everyone calm down. The kid is learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I'm all about giving QBs time to develop and learn the NFL game at NFL speed. I'm stating that EJ's specific problems are not of this type, he'll learn the reads, but he can't get himself into position to throw and make throws. When he scrambles he almost always puts the ball shoulder downfield, making it impossible to throw. When he does throw he fails to commit and hits feet or air. He does not have the mind-body mechanics of a top third QB. If you want to make the playoffs on a regular basis, you need a top third QB. This is not the droid we are looking for. Certain mechanics can be refined over time as long as the player has the physical ability to handle changes. What I mean is, the mechanics work with Fitz never worked and was never going to work because he just didn't have the physical ability to throw "properly". It's *really* hard to change throwing motions on these guys. The only real success story I can think of is Aaron Rodgers--Mike McCarthy said that if Rodgers didn't sit behind Favre for those years he might not be as good as he is, because they used that time to break down and rebuild his mechanics. It took that long. Where am I going with this? Throwing motion isn't Manuel's problem, it's mainly footwork and getting himself set properly. That can absolutely be fixed, and many QBs have to work on that. He'll never have the natural accuracy of Peyton Manning nor do I ever think he'll be in the "elite" class of QBs...but he could certainly be in the tier with the Joe Flaccos of the world. And that's good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Because Tuel doesn't have the talent to be an NFL starter--he had one decent game against 3rd stringers and then looked like a tire fire the rest of the time in preseason. What exactly has he shown you to indicate he could play, other than "he's not Manuel"? Also simple history. How many undrafted free agent QBs amount to anything? There's a reason not a single UDFA since the merger has started game 1--even if they ever turn into anything, they're certainly not ready as a rookie. Even if Manuel only has a 10% chance of becoming a good starter, I'll still lay the chips on that as opposed to the .00000001% chance Tuel becomes anything. The Cleveland case really isn't comparable because their starter was hurt and their alternative was Jason Campbell, who you know exactly what you'll get. If Manuel got hurt and we had the choice between Fitzpatrick and Tuel, sure, see what the kid has. But that's not the situation. I'm sure we will revisit this discussion soon. It is only a matter of time before Tuel is in there. Would I like someone other than Tuel? Sure. But last I looked this Mickey Mouse organization only kept two QBs. Both rookies. Tuel is next up, because he has to be. I sure hope Manuel is the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swedesessed Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Carolina was looking for CB's off the street this week and they beat the Giants 38-0 Injuries are just excuses for bad NFL teams, which is exactly what the Bills are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Carolina was looking for CB's off the street this week and they beat the Giants 38-0 Injuries are just excuses for bad NFL teams, which is exactly what the Bills are. We beat Carolina last week, remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Carolina was looking for CB's off the street this week and they beat the Giants 38-0 Injuries are just excuses for bad NFL teams, which is exactly what the Bills are. You've seen the Giants play football this year, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 It is only a matter of time before Tuel is in there. ... Tuel is next up, because he has to be. I'll say it: Nonsense. The only way Tuel plays is if Manuel's injured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 I'll say it: Nonsense. The only way Tuel plays is if Manuel's injured. And that is what I'm saying. It is only a matter of time. 7 sacks, doesn't know how to slide or protect himself. It's coming as sure as Christmas is, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 So, in his third game as a pro,... in his first road game as a pro,... EJ can't hit recievers that couldn't create space on me,... and only lost by one score, even though our D got roasted,... and he's already not the answer. Boy, I don't know what to say. Maybe we don't deserve a franchise QB. And whatever his accuracy problems were, they were the right ones. He had zero picks. He may not have gotten the ball to his receivers at times, but he wasn't giving it to their DBs either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 And that is what I'm saying. It is only a matter of time. 7 sacks, doesn't know how to slide or protect himself. It's coming as sure as Christmas is, Oh, gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 So, in his third game as a pro,... in his first road game as a pro,... EJ can't hit recievers that couldn't create space on me,... and only lost by one score, even though our D got roasted,... and he's already not the answer. Boy, I don't know what to say. Maybe we don't deserve a franchise QB. And whatever his accuracy problems were, they were the right ones. He had zero picks. He may not have gotten the ball to his receivers at times, but he wasn't giving it to their DBs either. It's not the rookie, can develop, problems. It's the massive physical problems with his pocket and throwing mechanics. I personally don't think he'll develop into the top 11 QB that is a threshold variable for consistently making the playoffs. The Jets self destructed with penalties, or that game is lost by 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Me no know enough to comment on the problems with and fixability of a professional quarterback's mechanics. #thingsiwillhappilyadmit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 23, 2013 Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 It's not the rookie, can develop, problems. It's the massive physical problems with his pocket and throwing mechanics. I personally don't think he'll develop into the top 11 QB that is a threshold variable for consistently making the playoffs. The Jets self destructed with penalties, or that game is lost by 30. We'll never know the answer to that and mechanics can be coached. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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