apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 excuses are for losers. he needs to stop the damn puck. boucher did it. Boucher also had a defence not tipping pucks in and leaving guys wide open at the side of the net. He faced direct shots from no closer then around the face off circle. Neither goalie has outplayed the other, they have both played well enough to keep their teams in the game and win, except one had the advantage of a better team out front. If they really want to save money to spend on better players, theres a few other guys that they should be looking at first before the goalie. (Pomminstein, Vanek, Connolly, etc Thats over $15mil right there) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 That's the crux of it. Would you rather have a $6M defenseman, a $6M forward, or a $6M goalie? Ten years ago I would have said goalie without hesitating, but now I think there are enough good goalies where it doesn't matter that much. That all depends, cause $6mil can get you Pomminstein and Vanek I would rather have a vezina winning goalie, and good defencemen and forwards, they don't have to cost alot of money, you just need to have a GM that can make moves to bring in these guys, someone whos not affraid to make some deals to get better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowmobiler97 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 excuses are for losers. he needs to stop the damn puck. boucher did it. excatly, he was making snow angles on a point blank shot. And the one off web's stick well... ok but still should've had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I would rather have a vezina winning goalie, and good defencemen and forwards, they don't have to cost alot of money, you just need to have a GM that can make moves to bring in these guys, someone whos not affraid to make some deals to get better Isn't that exactly what we have now? A Vezina-winning goalie and "good" defensemen and forwards? It didn't work in the playoffs last year and it's not working so far this year. I'd kill to have another forward on this team as good as Thomas Vanek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Isn't that exactly what we have now? A Vezina-winning goalie and "good" defensemen and forwards? It didn't work in the playoffs last year and it's not working so far this year. I don't think so, we have good forwards, and a Vezina winning goalie. As far as defense goes, we have a lot of guys with the potential to be really good, and most of them have shown moments of brilliance, but they are young, and they make far to many mistakes to honestly be considered a good defensive group. They will be a great defensive group in a few more years as they develop, but right now D is still one of the biggest issues on this team. It's definitely in this teams best interest to bring in a guy who's seasoned and can be responsible in our own end, as well as bring a little offense when appropriate to kind of mentor our guys on the back end, a la tallinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Isn't that exactly what we have now? A Vezina-winning goalie and "good" defensemen and forwards? It didn't work in the playoffs last year and it's not working so far this year. I'd kill to have another forward on this team as good as Thomas Vanek. no, we don't have that right now. i would hardly call the defencsive group they have now "good". They have potential to maybe one day be good, but right now, they need improvement. As for the forwards, they can be good at times, but theres alot of wasted money up front on this team. I'd kill to have a forward on this team that is actually worth what he is being paid. Vanek is not an elite player, and I doubt he ever will be, even though he is being paid like one, and in some cases more then some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 no, we don't have that right now. i would hardly call the defencsive group they have now "good". They have potential to maybe one day be good, but right now, they need improvement. As for the forwards, they can be good at times, but theres alot of wasted money up front on this team. I'd kill to have a forward on this team that is actually worth what he is being paid. Vanek is not an elite player, and I doubt he ever will be, even though he is being paid like one, and in some cases more then some. Please define "elite." One of the repeating memes of this board is that Vanek isn't "elite." I want to know exactly how everyone is defining elite. He's about as elite as Miller. Miller has one great year (last year) and a bunch of good years. Vanek has one great year (43 goals and led the league in +/-) and a bunch of good years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 no, we don't have that right now. i would hardly call the defencsive group they have now "good". They have potential to maybe one day be good, but right now, they need improvement. As for the forwards, they can be good at times, but theres alot of wasted money up front on this team. I'd kill to have a forward on this team that is actually worth what he is being paid. Vanek is not an elite player, and I doubt he ever will be, even though he is being paid like one, and in some cases more then some. And BTW I would say the rest of the team, besides Miller, is "good." They were good enough to win the division last year and had the best record in hockey since January 1st this year. And it wasn't because of Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Isn't that exactly what we have now? A Vezina-winning goalie and "good" defensemen and forwards? It didn't work in the playoffs last year and it's not working so far this year. I'd kill to have another forward on this team as good as Thomas Vanek. By no means is this a shutdown defense. They are young, erratic, and full of potential, but they just aren't shut down. I love how they compete, but to win they have to be better. 3 defensive mistakes last night were the difference. 2 mistakes led to absolute slam dunks. Philly has about 9 forwards who were first round picks...those boys might miss, but they won't miss from 6 feet too often. :D Although Buffalo moving on from last years defense was the right move IMO (Tallinder, Lydman, Rivet took most minutes and over 30 years of NHL experience) We have to be prepared to live and die with this present D corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Elite would be someone who is one of the better players in the league at their position, someone that is considered the difference/advantage in a game or series. Alot of teams would love to have Miller in net for them, I don't know of many that would fight for Vanek compared to others forwards in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 And BTW I would say the rest of the team, besides Miller, is "good." They were good enough to win the division last year and had the best record in hockey since January 1st this year. And it wasn't because of Miller. You really believe that they won their division last year because of how the team played in front of Miller and not because he had a great year? They started out strong and then coasted to the playoffs where they were man handled. They did play great down the stretch, but I would hardly say that Miller wasn't a part of the reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 You really believe that they won their division last year because of how the team played in front of Miller and not because he had a great year? They started out strong and then coasted to the playoffs where they were man handled. They did play great down the stretch, but I would hardly say that Miller wasn't a part of the reason why. I would say he was "part of the reason why" but definitely not the reason why. Last year's team won the division because Myers was incredible. This year's team turned things around starting in January because Vanek and a bunch of rookies and 2nd year players stepped their game up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 By no means is this a shutdown defense. I don't think I'd ever call them that. That said, I'd much rather have shutdown defense and a "good" goalie, than a "shutdown" goalie and a "good" defense. Again, this goes back to my thinking that the goaltending difference between "good" and "great" really doesn't make that much of a difference on the ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Is there any reason to believe that would happen? It's a possibility that shouldn't be ignored. The problem I'm seeing with this scenario we're throwing around is that there are actually two very different questions being asked. Are we talking about Miller/Enroth today, right at this very moment, or are we talking about Miller/Enroth/someone else next year and moving forward? My response was shaped more towards to present situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Elite would be someone who is one of the better players in the league at their position, someone that is considered the difference/advantage in a game or series. Alot of teams would love to have Miller in net for them, I don't know of many that would fight for Vanek compared to others forwards in the league. The Flyers don't have Miller and they're doing just fine. They don't seem particularly intimidated by him either. I don't know how many teams would "fight" for Miller given how much good goaltending there is in the NHL at this point. Also, the only time I can think of where Miller was the difference in a series we won was 2006 against Ottawa, and a lot of that was how Emery was horrible (not good or even average, but horrible). So if he's really elite, maybe having an elite goaltender doesn't count for all that much. Plus he was outplayed by Rask last year and I don't think he's been any better than Boucher this year. So maybe he's not as elite as everyone thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 The Flyers don't have Miller and they're doing just fine. They don't seem particularly intimidated by him either. I don't know how many teams would "fight" for Miller given how much good goaltending there is in the NHL at this point. Also, the only time I can think of where Miller was the difference in a series we won was 2006 against Ottawa, and a lot of that was how Emery was horrible (not good or even average, but horrible). So if he's really elite, maybe having an elite goaltender doesn't count for all that much. Plus he was outplayed by Rask last year and I don't think he's been any better than Boucher this year. So maybe he's not as elite as everyone thinks. The Flyers are doing just fine because the guys they have everywhere else on their team. The Flyers are far better at every other position except goaltending which is what allows them to still win with weaker goaltending, they make up for it in other areas. Buffalo on the other hand don't have that advantage Everyone keeps saying that one goaltender has to be outplaying the other when a team is winning, but its a team game. last year Rask was playing great, but he wasn't outplaying Miller as much as the rest of his team was outplayed the Sabres Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 It's a possibility that shouldn't be ignored. The problem I'm seeing with this scenario we're throwing around is that there are actually two very different questions being asked. Are we talking about Miller/Enroth today, right at this very moment, or are we talking about Miller/Enroth/someone else next year and moving forward? My response was shaped more towards to present situation. My question is, in general, are we better served by building around a star goalie or building around star players on defense and offense? I don't think star goalies are as important as they used to be, and I'm not confident any more that Miller is a superstar goalie so much as a very good goalie. If we're talking about actually trading him after this season, that would depend on the trade itself. I don't have my heart set on it (either as the best policy or something we NEED to do), but I'd want to explore it if we could improve the team in other areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 My question is, in general, are we better served by building around a star goalie or building around star players on defense and offense? I don't think star goalies are as important as they used to be, and I'm not confident any more that Miller is a superstar goalie so much as a very good goalie. If we're talking about actually trading him after this season, that would depend on the trade itself. I don't have my heart set on it (either as the best policy or something we NEED to do), but I'd want to explore it if we could improve the team in other areas. Fair enough, with this bipolar fanbase I can never really tell if they're saying to bench Miller immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I don't think I'd ever call them that. That said, I'd much rather have shutdown defense and a "good" goalie, than a "shutdown" goalie and a "good" defense. Again, this goes back to my thinking that the goaltending difference between "good" and "great" really doesn't make that much of a difference on the ice. I'm not sure I can compartmentalize so much. Would I rather have a great center or a great wing? Ideally a great one of either makes the other better. I think it works the same with the D and the Goalie. I think a team like Nashville has both right now. That makes them pretty scary team to play I think Miller is better than his defense. I think Luongo is also better than his defense. I think Price is better than his defense. Detriot's Defense is much better than it's goalie The same is true of Philly. Meyers and Butler may make a great shutdown pair in years to come, but I think that pairing is a little ways off from having "arrived" -- - but for now it's the best we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donteatyellowsnow Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Elite would be someone who is one of the better players in the league at their position, someone that is considered the difference/advantage in a game or series. Alot of teams would love to have Miller in net for them, I don't know of many that would fight for Vanek compared to others forwards in the league. Wow! just wow! Hey, i've got some land for sale in Florida...you interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Wow! just wow! Hey, i've got some land for sale in Florida...you interested? I am. Whereabouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I would take a top defense and a "$2-3 million dollar" goaltender any day in this current version of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I am. Whereabouts? Somewhere right along I-75 between Miami and Naples. If you want to check it out, just pull to the side of the road and head down towards the water. Make sure to be eating a nice juicy burger at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 I would take a top defense and a "$2-3 million dollar" goaltender any day in this current version of the league. Cutting Miller's salary in half doesn't give a you a "top defense" - it allows you to pay one more player significant money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Cutting Miller's salary in half doesn't give a you a "top defense" - it allows you to pay one more player significant money. Thank you Mr. Obvious. I made no comments on what steps Darcy would need to take to achieve a team that had a top defense and a 2-3 million goaltender (except of course to pay his #1 goalie 2-3 mil. :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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