Bmwolf21 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 One thing that has always impressed me about Miller is that he is forever in control. The guy plays with such economy of motion that he rarely needs the spectacular save because shooters are looking at an eclipse. But as far as odd man rushes and breakaways, he's been seeing a ton. It's not like Mike Ramsey and Billy Hajt in front of him these days. It looks to me like Miller's numbers are fair: http://www.capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=SALARY&position=G&limit=25 Good post on all counts. The control and positioning is the thing that always stands out to me. If he is under control he is usually locked in and playing well. When he is struggling you find him swimming in the crease. That's also the part that has impressed the hell out of me with Carey Price this year. He looks like he is always in the perfect position (except in the shootout last night) and a lot of pucks are swallowed up by his crest. Not a lot of spectacular saves, just stop after stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donteatyellowsnow Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Good post on all counts. The control and positioning is the thing that always stands out to me. If he is under control he is usually locked in and playing well. When he is struggling you find him swimming in the crease. That's also the part that has impressed the hell out of me with Carey Price this year. He looks like he is always in the perfect position (except in the shootout last night) and a lot of pucks are swallowed up by his crest. Not a lot of spectacular saves, just stop after stop. I think it's just more the style they play. The butterfly makes it look like they are always in control and always in position. In reality they just go to the butterfly as soon as they think a shot is going to be taken. That style is just playing the % that the puck will hit some part of their body. I think Miller gets too low while in the butterfly and the league knows to go high on him. Shoot high on Ryan and your % are good it's going in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 That's not correct. Goalies have different criteria for waiver eligibility. For Enroth, he's not waiver eligible until he has either played 80 NHL games (might be 60 games, not sure on his age when he signed) or 4 years after his first contract. He's in his 3rd year now and is obviously nowhere near the games cutoff. He can still be freely moved back and forth to Portland next year. That's good news. I think he's at a point in his career where he still needs a lot of game time, which he won't get here next season unless MIller is injured for a long period. If that happens, I'd prefer to see ETHRON get NHL games than a backup (unless the Sabres get Biron in here or something). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sloth Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I like this observation. There are a number of very good goalies in the NHL right now. But there doesn't seem to be any that are threatening to be the next great goalie. There was a run with Roy, Hasek, and Brodeur that appears to be ending with no heir apparent ready and in the wings. It seems that parity has affected the goalie ranks. I wonder if it has to do with goalies relying on equipment and positioning more? The diff between the top 10 or so goalies seems to be too small to really mean anything. This is a good post. Today's goalies do have to rely a bit more on the players in front of them. Right now, the Sabres defense is horrendous and their offense is sporatic. Against the Leafs, the Sabres had 1 garbage goalie from the Goose, went 0 for 4 on the powerplay, and got outshot in a 3rd period they HAD to win. Miller kept Buffalo in the game last night. It was the players in front of him that did not produce. Also, I'd like to think most Sabres fans have come to the realization of how important Tallinder and Lydman were to the Sabres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Also, I'd like to think most Sabres fans have come to the realization of how important Tallinder and Lydman were to the Sabres. I had no problem with the Sabres letting Tallinder go, but I would have taken Lydman any day of the week instead of Morrison. I know he was prone to the occasional bad giveaway, but he was our best defenseman in the Sabres zone and there was not a close 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hey! Ur post count is William Mattar's phone number! Hurt in a car... I enjoyed it....but now it is time to move on. Hurt By a Zamboni? ....Call 4445. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 One thing that has always impressed me about Miller is that he is forever in control. Really? You're watching a different game than I am I guess. Just in his last two starts, he's had a loss of impulse control, costing the Sabres goals each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 Really? You're watching a different game than I am I guess. Just in his last two starts, he's had a loss of impulse control, costing the Sabres goals each time. Impulse control? (sounds like a shopping problem, I know he likes clothes) Miller was solid last night. He fought the puck a few times high. But was positionally excellent. Maybe it is hard to see on TV, but when players are changing shots on a 5-3, or hesitating, you have a decent keeper. I've seen him look sharper. He was fighting the puck a little on high shots, but kept the handle. He kept them in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted February 17, 2011 Report Share Posted February 17, 2011 I think it's just more the style they play. The butterfly makes it look like they are always in control and always in position. In reality they just go to the butterfly as soon as they think a shot is going to be taken. That style is just playing the % that the puck will hit some part of their body. I think Miller gets too low while in the butterfly and the league knows to go high on him. Shoot high on Ryan and your % are good it's going in. I think the butterfly style can make it easier for an average goalie to put up decent numbers and keep his team in games, but you make it sounds like the style is just drop and hope, and I think there's more to that. It's positioning and angles, and trying to bait the shooter into shooting at something that's not really open. And I disagree that Ryan is more vulnerable up top than any other goalie playing the butterfly. Shoot high on any butterfly-style goaltender and there's a good chance it's going in. Or at least a much better chance than shooting low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Impulse control? (sounds like a shopping problem, I know he likes clothes) Miller was solid last night. He fought the puck a few times high. But was positionally excellent. Maybe it is hard to see on TV, but when players are changing shots on a 5-3, or hesitating, you have a decent keeper. I've seen him look sharper. He was fighting the puck a little on high shots, but kept the handle. He kept them in the game. For $6 mil a year he needs to win the game not keep them in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I think the butterfly style can make it easier for an average goalie to put up decent numbers and keep his team in games, but you make it sounds like the style is just drop and hope, and I think there's more to that. It's positioning and angles, and trying to bait the shooter into shooting at something that's not really open. And I disagree that Ryan is more vulnerable up top than any other goalie playing the butterfly. Shoot high on any butterfly-style goaltender and there's a good chance it's going in. Or at least a much better chance than shooting low. This a good post. I would add that butterfly goalies do rely more on their teammates because the style relies on cutting down angles by playing on the edges of the crease. Miller takes this to a new extreme - he is more aggressive on angles and the distance he will come out to challenge than any other goalie I can think of. Because of this, he is very susceptible to a pass to a player behind him, as he is so far out of the net he can't get back in time. More traditional goalies, or goalies playing a more conservative butterfly style have a better chance at these types of plays That's why it is so important in Ruffs system, which is adapted specifically for Miller, that the backside defense and back checking forwards tie up sticks. Yes, I know that all goalies are susceptible to back door plays and all defense are taught to tie up, but Miller's style takes it too a new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 For $6 mil a year he needs to win the game not keep them in it. This is dumb. It'll be dumb the next time you write it too. It's a team game. :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 This is dumb. It'll be dumb the next time you write it too. It's a team game. :beer: Then why don't they all get paid equal amounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Then why don't they all get paid equal amounts? Why don't they only pay 1 guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Why don't they only pay 1 guy? Because the other guys wouldn't show up and play for free. Miller get's paid $6 mill to carry this team on his back. He doesn't get paid to be adequate and he doesn't get paid to just "keep them in games." There are guys all over the league that can do that for a lot less money. It is "dumb" to not recognize that we are in a new era of the NHL. There are no more elite goaltenders. Miller is very good in a league with many very good goaltenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Because the other guys wouldn't show up and play for free. Miller get's paid $6 mill to carry this team on his back. He doesn't get paid to be adequate and he doesn't get paid to just "keep them in games." There are guys all over the league that can do that for a lot less money. It is "dumb" to not recognize that we are in a new era of the NHL. There are no more elite goaltenders. Miller is very good in a league with many very good goaltenders. How much a player gets paid is determined by his market value when he signs a contract. How a goaltender plays night to night it quite independent of his paycheck - there's absolutely no correlation. So it is goaltenders job to win, but there are no elite goaltenders anyway? :rolleyes: Even the greatest goaltender at any level gives you a chance to win. That's all. If you disagree with that ask a goaltender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 How much a player gets paid is determined by his market value when he signs a contract. How a goaltender plays night to night it quite independent of his paycheck - there's absolutely no correlation. So it is goaltenders job to win, but there are no elite goaltenders anyway? :rolleyes: Even the greatest goaltender at any level gives you a chance to win. That's all. If you disagree with that ask a goaltender. There is a huge difference between the end result and the expectations. With a $6 mil contract, Miller has more expectations on his shoulders than a goalie making $2 mil. They can be playing in the same game, it doesn't mean the criteria their performance is based on is equal. Miller was lucky to sign his contract when he did. It was at the tail end of an era that believed that franchise goalies win Stanley Cups. The last "elite" goalie is playing out his days in New Jersey. In sports you hear the term "passing the torch." Who is he "passing the torch" to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 There is a huge difference between the end result and the expectations. With a $6 mil contract, Miller has more expectations on his shoulders than a goalie making $2 mil. They can be playing in the same game, it doesn't mean the criteria their performance is based on is equal. Miller was lucky to sign his contract when he did. It was at the tail end of an era that believed that franchise goalies win Stanley Cups. The last "elite" goalie is playing out his days in New Jersey. In sports you hear the term "passing the torch." Who is he "passing the torch" to? Totally disagree with your premise. There are about 12 teams with excellent goaltenders, these guys are amazing athletes that are consistently good. There are about 18 teams that wish they had one. Now, some keepers may have stretches were they are locked in, but often it isn't happening for very long. (Halak last year caught fire, for example) Numbers never tell the entire story. But Miller is one of those 12. (12 roughly) In fact, I'm often surprised his numbers are as good as they are this year without anything close to representing/resembling a shutdown pair. Miller is, and will remain the Sabres most important player for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 There are no more elite goaltenders. Miller is very good in a league with many very good goaltenders. Totally disagree with your premise. There are about 12 teams with excellent goaltenders, these guys are amazing athletes that are consistently good. There are about 18 teams that wish they had one. Now, some keepers may have stretches were they are locked in, but often it isn't happening for very long. (Halak last year caught fire, for example) Numbers never tell the entire story. But Miller is one of those 12. (12 roughly) In fact, I'm often surprised his numbers are as good as they are this year without anything close to representing/resembling a shutdown pair. Miller is, and will remain the Sabres most important player for the foreseeable future. It sounds to me like you just agreed with his premise. Many goalies that are excellent, none that are elite in that group of 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 It sounds to me like you just agreed with his premise. Many goalies that are excellent, none that are elite in that group of 12. Are we down to semantics? Elite by definition = top group. I think that group is about 12. Miller is in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Are we down to semantics? Elite by definition = top group. I think that group is about 12. Miller is in it. Based on his career? It's pretty hard to argue he's been elite this season when he sits 25th in save percentage and 30th in GAA. If Miller's season has been elite, what word do we use to describe Pekka Rinne's season? It may not exist. Words have to have some meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Are we down to semantics? Elite by definition = top group. I think that group is about 12. Miller is in it. Yeah, I guess I'll argue semantice here with you. How many starting goalies in the league are there? 12 is darn close to half of them. I am not willing to call a group of almost 50% as the elite group. If you want to single out maybe 2-4 of them as above the others I think we can start using the word elite. But I don't think there are 2-4 goalies that are demonstrably better than the other 8-10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stenbaro Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I think his name is worth more than his play....I dont think they would be any worse off without him than with him...An average Nhl goalie could backstop this team to the place it is now and where it ended up last year. Hell a average goalie won the cup last year. I think he played his heart out to get the olympic nod last year and once it was over he was spent. We wont see that play again..Get the most you can for him and move on. He is not worth the salary they are paying him. Of course niether is 90 percent of the team but his is the biggest chunk of the dead weight we have...JMO.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donteatyellowsnow Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I think his name is worth more than his play....I dont think they would be any worse off without him than with him...An average Nhl goalie could backstop this team to the place it is now and where it ended up last year. Hell a average goalie won the cup last year. I think he played his heart out to get the olympic nod last year and once it was over he was spent. We wont see that play again..Get the most you can for him and move on. He is not worth the salary they are paying him. Of course niether is 90 percent of the team but his is the biggest chunk of the dead weight we have...JMO.. yep :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 I dunno. Calling Miller dead weight is probably overstating things more than just a bit. You can make a strong argument that he is overpaid for his worth and the end results in W-L column, but calling him dead weight seems more than a bit hyperbole to me. Like I've mentioned before, there are alot bigger issues with this team than the starting goalie. I'd look to center ice and our top 4 defencemen before dragging Miller through the muck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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