Sabre Dance Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I would like to see what DR can do under the ownership of TP. I think he could build a contender if TP gives him the tools to do it. I also have no problem with TP replacing him if he thinks DR wouldn't be a good fit for his sabres vision. BUT if we get rid of DR we have to get someone better and I don't think that is a easy or likely thing. I look at getting rid of Ruff the same way, is there someone out there who can do the job better here and is willing to do it? I think the answer is no I had to read this several times before replying. So, you think that Darcy Regier could build a contender if the new owner gives him the "tools" to do it. What tools exactly are we talking about? Money? Hell, Quinn gave Regier just about every dollar available under the cap to sign players. Scouting? Well, yeah, if we had real human people as scouts instead of camcorders, maybe that would help. But given the right "tools", any decent GM could build a playoff team - there are sixteen GMs that do it every year. If we get rid of Regier, who can we get that's better? Any one of the sixteen GMs that built a playoff team last year. (To bad Stevie Yzerman is already with Tampa, because he has made some moves that have enabled the Lightning to climb in the standings.) I don't necessarily have it in for Ruff or Regier. BUT, after over a decade it is time for fresh blood. If these two are as talented as everyone thinks (despite their records), they'll land on their feet. How about bringing Don Luce back as GM? As the Flyers Director of Player Personnel, he seems to have done a decent job of identifying/cultivating talent. Philly wound up with Briere, made it to the Finals last year and the team is second overall this year. He's a former Sabre and already worked in their front office, and I'm sure would love to see the Sabres contend for a Cup. There are certainly other excellent GM candidates out there (coaching candidates, too). Let TP talk to some of them and make a decision. Why is it we want to keep people around just for the sake of keeping them? I say, a new broom sweeps clean..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 The Sabres had the best Coach in NHL history and the scoreboard was zero. Just saying.... Followed immediately by a revolving door of crappy coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I'm a Darcy basher all the way, but TBF you forgot the Barnes for Barnaby deal. In my opinion, that was no barnburner. The deal itself symbolized the dysfunction of the franchise and it's management. You could argue that Barnaby was a man ahead of his time and not only called the political pussification of the Sabres, but was the first shot fired. Barnes was a nice player. He was pretty much Hecht, but with some self-respect. Barnaby brought a special skill set to a team, so he was coveted. I think everyone looks fondly towards Barnes because they went to the Cup after the acquired him at the deadline, and because Lindy gave him the "C". Although....Lindy handing you the captaincy is about as special as a Mexican handing you a porn pamphlet on the Vegas Strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 In my opinion, that was no barnburner. The deal itself symbolized the dysfunction of the franchise and it's management. You could argue that Barnaby was a man ahead of his time and not only called the political pussification of the Sabres, but was the first shot fired. Barnes was a nice player. He was pretty much Hecht, but with some self-respect. Barnaby brought a special skill set to a team, so he was coveted. I think everyone looks fondly towards Barnes because they went to the Cup after the acquired him at the deadline, and because Lindy gave him the "C". Although....Lindy handing you the captaincy is about as special as a Mexican handing you a porn pamphlet on the Vegas Strip. I never loved that deal, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I had to read this several times before replying. So, you think that Darcy Regier could build a contender if the new owner gives him the "tools" to do it. What tools exactly are we talking about? Money? Hell, Quinn gave Regier just about every dollar available under the cap to sign players. Scouting? Well, yeah, if we had real human people as scouts instead of camcorders, maybe that would help. But given the right "tools", any decent GM could build a playoff team - there are sixteen GMs that do it every year. If we get rid of Regier, who can we get that's better? Any one of the sixteen GMs that built a playoff team last year. (To bad Stevie Yzerman is already with Tampa, because he has made some moves that have enabled the Lightning to climb in the standings.) I don't necessarily have it in for Ruff or Regier. BUT, after over a decade it is time for fresh blood. If these two are as talented as everyone thinks (despite their records), they'll land on their feet. How about bringing Don Luce back as GM? As the Flyers Director of Player Personnel, he seems to have done a decent job of identifying/cultivating talent. Philly wound up with Briere, made it to the Finals last year and the team is second overall this year. He's a former Sabre and already worked in their front office, and I'm sure would love to see the Sabres contend for a Cup. There are certainly other excellent GM candidates out there (coaching candidates, too). Let TP talk to some of them and make a decision. Why is it we want to keep people around just for the sake of keeping them? I say, a new broom sweeps clean..... The "tools" that come to mind are an ownership group that does NOT do the following: DR: We need to re-sign Drury and Briere. TG/LQ: They are going to cost too much. You can only keep one of them. DR: What? TG/LQ: And since Briere dared to take us to arbitration, it has to be Drury. DR: What? TG/LQ: That's how it is. DR: OK, I got Drury to agree to a very good deal for us -- only 4 years, so we aren't stuck with him when he slows down. Can you send him the papers so we can wrap it up? TG/LQ: No, we changed our minds. DR: What? [black Sunday] DR: We need to re-sign Soupy. TG/LQ: No way. We just gave Vanek $50MM. We aren't signing any more contracts for a long time. DR: Now is the time. We can get him for well under market if we sign him now. If we wait, it will be too late, just like it was with Drury and Briere. TG/LQ: No way. DR: What? [Fast forward 6 months] TG/LQ: OK, offer him the same thing he wanted 6 months ago. DR: What? [soupy leaves] TG/LQ: Well, that was another debacle. We need to make sure we don't lose anyone else. Make sure you give Pommer and Hecht whatever they want. DR: What? [fade to black] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 The "tools" that come to mind are an ownership group that does NOT do the following: DR: We need to re-sign Drury and Briere. TG/LQ: They are going to cost too much. You can only keep one of them. DR: What? TG/LQ: And since Briere dared to take us to arbitration, it has to be Drury. DR: What? TG/LQ: That's how it is. DR: OK, I got Drury to agree to a very good deal for us -- only 4 years, so we aren't stuck with him when he slows down. Can you send him the papers so we can wrap it up? TG/LQ: No, we changed our minds. DR: What? [black Sunday] DR: We need to re-sign Soupy. TG/LQ: No way. We just gave Vanek $50MM. We aren't signing any more contracts for a long time. DR: Now is the time. We can get him for well under market if we sign him now. If we wait, it will be too late, just like it was with Drury and Briere. TG/LQ: No way. DR: What? [Fast forward 6 months] TG/LQ: OK, offer him the same thing he wanted 6 months ago. DR: What? [soupy leaves] TG/LQ: Well, that was another debacle. We need to make sure we don't lose anyone else. Make sure you give Pommer and Hecht whatever they want. DR: What? [fade to black] yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 How about bringing Don Luce back as GM? As the Flyers Director of Player Personnel, he seems to have done a decent job of identifying/cultivating talent. Philly wound up with Briere, made it to the Finals last year and the team is second overall this year. He's a former Sabre and already worked in their front office, and I'm sure would love to see the Sabres contend for a Cup. I don't know the answer to this one, so I'll throw it out there as a random thought. I wonder how much of that young talent outside of JVR was already in place before he took over. The bulk of their rebuild seems to have come from outside the organization and not up through the ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't know the answer to this one, so I'll throw it out there as a random thought. I wonder how much of that young talent outside of JVR was already in place before he took over. The bulk of their rebuild seems to have come from outside the organization and not up through the ranks. Good point. Philly had traded away most picks. JVR and Luca Sibisa (sp?) are the only picks that come to mind recently. Richards, Carter, Gireoux, etc. were all prior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't know the answer to this one, so I'll throw it out there as a random thought. I wonder how much of that young talent outside of JVR was already in place before he took over. The bulk of their rebuild seems to have come from outside the organization and not up through the ranks. Good point. Philly had traded away most picks. JVR and Luca Sibisa (sp?) are the only picks that come to mind recently. Richards, Carter, Gireoux, etc. were all prior. As a long-time Sabres fan, I hate to say this, but Luce has to bear some responsibility for the poor record of the first-round picks made while he was in the front office: 1996 - Erik Rasmussen 1997 - Mika Noronen 1998 - Dmitri Kalinin 1999 - Barrett Heisten 2000 - Artem Kryukov 2001 - Jiri Novotny 2002 - Keith Ballard 2003 - Thomas Vanek 2004 - Drew Stafford 2005 - Marek Zagrapan 2006 - Dennis Persson That's 11 years of first-rounds, and only 3 real NHL players to show for it (and one of those is Stafford!). Rasmussen was the 7th pick in the draft. I don't know how accurate this is, but I recall reading that Luce had primary responsibility for the Sabres' draft picks during this period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 As a long-time Sabres fan, I hate to say this, but Luce has to bear some responsibility for the poor record of the first-round picks made while he was in the front office: 1996 - Erik Rasmussen 1997 - Mika Noronen 1998 - Dmitri Kalinin 1999 - Barrett Heisten 2000 - Artem Kryukov 2001 - Jiri Novotny 2002 - Keith Ballard 2003 - Thomas Vanek 2004 - Drew Stafford 2005 - Marek Zagrapan 2006 - Dennis Persson That's 11 years of first-rounds, and only 3 real NHL players to show for it (and one of those is Stafford!). Rasmussen was the 7th pick in the draft. I don't know how accurate this is, but I recall reading that Luce had primary responsibility for the Sabres' draft picks during this period. In fairness to Luce though, I think he has always been more on the development side than the draft/scouting side - tracking internal prospects already in the system, more than scouting juniors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I don't know how accurate this is, but I recall reading that Luce had primary responsibility for the Sabres' draft picks during this period. I seem to remember Darcy saying that he selected who was getting picked in the 1st rd (maybe 2nd too?) and he depended on his scouts for the later picks. I would expect that Luce had some input and influence on Darcy's choice though. It would be interesting if it came out that Darcy was the guy for the 1st rd picks but Luce and his staff were responsible for those late round gems like Miller, Campbell, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I seem to remember Darcy saying that he selected who was getting picked in the 1st rd (maybe 2nd too?) and he depended on his scouts for the later picks. I would expect that Luce had some input and influence on Darcy's choice though. It would be interesting if it came out that Darcy was the guy for the 1st rd picks but Luce and his staff were responsible for those late round gems like Miller, Campbell, etc. I think it was Jim Benning working then. But really, I'm having trouble remembering if I ate breakfast this morning or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 As a long-time Sabres fan, I hate to say this, but Luce has to bear some responsibility for the poor record of the first-round picks made while he was in the front office: 1996 - Erik Rasmussen 1997 - Mika Noronen 1998 - Dmitri Kalinin 1999 - Barrett Heisten 2000 - Artem Kryukov 2001 - Jiri Novotny 2002 - Keith Ballard 2003 - Thomas Vanek 2004 - Drew Stafford 2005 - Marek Zagrapan 2006 - Dennis Persson That's 11 years of first-rounds, and only 3 real NHL players to show for it (and one of those is Stafford!). Rasmussen was the 7th pick in the draft. I don't know how accurate this is, but I recall reading that Luce had primary responsibility for the Sabres' draft picks during this period. Wow! You're on a roll today. Blame Quinn and Golisano for tying Darcy's hands on contracts Blame Luce for poor drafting Just what.....DOES.....Darcy...do...per chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Wow! You're on a roll today. Blame Quinn and Golisano for tying Darcy's hands on contracts Blame Luce for poor drafting Just what.....DOES.....Darcy...do...per chance? That right there is funny. I don't care who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Darcy Regier hasn't won a Stanley Cup. I think your readers know this. Semantically, if we settle on a definition of "Great" that excludes everything but a Stanley cup, there have been no Great Sabres, Great Coaches, or Great Hockey here, or any season here worth playing. Do you think that stance could be a conversation killer? I do. The conversation was never about how to inflate past accomplishments. The conversation is about turning the Sabres into a Great franchise. Great meaning a Championship franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 The right tools are a scouting department that can do their jobs, freedom to sign free agents that fit the spot needed on the roster instead of cheapest bargain, and to listen to the hockey people when they say so and so is willing to sign a extension and we should do it. Now maybe LQ and TG did give him all this and if so TP should be able to see and/or hear about that and can jettison DR for it. BUT somehow I don't think this is all because of DR. most of the decisions reek of turning a profit. Also we can all scream till we are blue in the face about overpaying for Pommer, TC, and others. But by the time these guys were signed to extensions the Sabres had already lost so many players that people said they should have kept it seems pretty clear from a PR perspective they had little choice but to sign them. Personally I hope TP gives DR 3 tests. This years trade deadline, this years draft, and this years free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Also that list of first round picks made me wonder. What did a team like detroit draft over taht same time. This is what wikipedia showed 1996: Jesse Wallin (26th overall) 1997: None (Yuri Butsayev 2nd round (49th overall)) 1998: Jiri Fischer (25th overall) 1999: None (Jari Tolsa 4th round (120th overall)) 2000: Niklas Kronwall (29th overall) 2001: None (Igor Grigorenko (62nd overall)) 2002: None (Jiri Hudler 2nd round (58th overall)) 2003: None (Jimmy Howard 2nd round (64th overall)) 2004: None (Johan Franzen 3rd round (97th overall)) 2005: Jakub Kindl (19th overall)) 2006: None (Cory Emmerton 2nd round (41st overall)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Also that list of first round picks made me wonder. What did a team like detroit draft over taht same time. This is what wikipedia showed 1996: Jesse Wallin (26th overall) 1997: None (Yuri Butsayev 2nd round (49th overall)) 1998: Jiri Fischer (25th overall) 1999: None (Jari Tolsa 4th round (120th overall)) 2000: Niklas Kronwall (29th overall) 2001: None (Igor Grigorenko (62nd overall)) 2002: None (Jiri Hudler 2nd round (58th overall)) 2003: None (Jimmy Howard 2nd round (64th overall)) 2004: None (Johan Franzen 3rd round (97th overall)) 2005: Jakub Kindl (19th overall)) 2006: None (Cory Emmerton 2nd round (41st overall)) Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Interesting. It is. I'd love to know who Detroit got for all of those first-rounders. If it were earlier, I'd look it up; as it is, it's my bedtime (you thought I named myself after Perreault or something?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 It is. I'd love to know who Detroit got for all of those first-rounders. If it were earlier, I'd look it up; as it is, it's my bedtime (you thought I named myself after Perreault or something?). But do you know where your children are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabre Dance Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I don't know the answer to this one, so I'll throw it out there as a random thought. I wonder how much of that young talent outside of JVR was already in place before he took over. The bulk of their rebuild seems to have come from outside the organization and not up through the ranks. I'm sure that in his position, Luce also has input on trades, free agent signings, etc. That's how a team gets built. Hey, the Flyers are on a roll. I don't care if they got their players through alien abduction; they're winning. Look at Yzerman in Tampa. He had a couple of stars to build on (St. Louis and Lecavalier) and now Yzerman has made a couple of trades, a couple of free-agent moves and the team is on the upswing. In fact, I think Yzerman has made more moves since signing on in Tampa than Darcy has made in the last five seasons (well, good moves anyway). :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Wow! You're on a roll today. Blame Quinn and Golisano for tying Darcy's hands on contracts Blame Luce for poor drafting Just what.....DOES.....Darcy...do...per chance? My point on the draft was not so much to absolve DR as to point out that Luce may not be the savior some think he is. I think (and admittedly it's pure speculation) that DR is much more accountable for the lousy drafts than he is for the contract debacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I'm sure that in his position, Luce also has input on trades, free agent signings, etc. That's how a team gets built. Hey, the Flyers are on a roll. I don't care if they got their players through alien abduction; they're winning. Look at Yzerman in Tampa. He had a couple of stars to build on (St. Louis and Lecavalier) and now Yzerman has made a couple of trades, a couple of free-agent moves and the team is on the upswing. In fact, I think Yzerman has made more moves since signing on in Tampa than Darcy has made in the last five seasons (well, good moves anyway). :rolleyes: You missed the biggest star of all that Yzerman had to work with. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 My point on the draft was not so much to absolve DR as to point out that Luce may not be the savior some think he is. I think (and admittedly it's pure speculation) that DR is much more accountable for the lousy drafts than he is for the contract debacles. I couldn't honestly tell you how good Luce is. He's just another symbol of going on the cheap and lousy political decisions from the front office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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