Is Lindy Ruff the new Marv Levy?

[SDS]

Actually, it is not so much PA as it is the NHL On the Fly show. I see so many pretty offensive plays from around the league and I wonder why our team doesn't score the same quality goals as these other teams. I don't even see the same quality chances, let alone the same scoring.

 

I normally don't like to point to the success of former players and criticize the decision to let them go, but you really have to wonder about Max in Atlanta. 13 goals this season and last year he couldn't get on the ice? Max always gave effort. Something doesn't jive.

 

Marv Levy is a coach that many people loved, but he had his issues IMO. I was never a Levy fan then or now. I wonder if Ruff doesn't fall in the same category. Good enough to win over the believers, but not good enough to finish the job...

[billsrcursed]

Here's what I do when I start to question Ruff as our Head Coach, take it for what it's worth (not much);

 

Could another Coach get more production out of our players? I don't think so.

 

Max is a great story, but he's surrounded by ALL new players. I personally think Ruff would be a contender were he the Coach in Atlanta. They have some serious talent there.

 

So I'm one of the guys who thinks it's not the Coach, it's the crap around the Coach. I have zero issues with his approach to the game, save for the PP, but I don't think that can be pinned on him yet either. BTW, notice how we're not dropping the puck back on the PP like we were?? Does Patrick get credit for that?

 

Anyway, great thread regardless of where you stand, it's a REAL issue that should be discussed.

[tom webster]

I was sure this was going to be another PA thread when I saw the title. Look, I don't think Lindy walks on water but I agree with the sentiment that its the top 6 forwards that were vastly over rated by management. The contracts to Jochen Hecht and Tim Connolly were a joke. Anyone who has spent any time around any part of this team knows that both have similiar reputations. They want to be good palyers but have no drive and desire to be "the man." Both are notorious for working hard during practice, but stricly on a 9 to 5 basis. On top of that, Derel Roy refuses to grow up.

As for Max, unless I am mistaking, he is the only player to leave Buffalo and flourish offensively and he has tailed off dramatically recently.

[Claude_Verret]

I'm happy for Max as he seems to have turned his career around somewhat with 13 G and 34 pts at this point. I haven't seen any Thrashers games, but his -2 rating tells me he probably still is somewhat of a turnover machine though.

[PASabreFan]

Here's what I do when I start to question Ruff as our Head Coach, take it for what it's worth (not much);

 

Could another Coach get more production out of our players? I don't think so.

 

Max is a great story, but he's surrounded by ALL new players. I personally think Ruff would be a contender were he the Coach in Atlanta. They have some serious talent there.

 

So I'm one of the guys who thinks it's not the Coach, it's the crap around the Coach. I have zero issues with his approach to the game, save for the PP, but I don't think that can be pinned on him yet either. BTW, notice how we're not dropping the puck back on the PP like we were?? Does Patrick get credit for that?

 

Anyway, great thread regardless of where you stand, it's a REAL issue that should be discussed.

OK, I still haven't found any link or heard any "mainstream" media discussion of McCutcheon being demoted from PP duty.

[PASabreFan]

Actually, it is not so much PA as it is the NHL On the Fly show. I see so many pretty offensive plays from around the league and I wonder why our team doesn't score the same quality goals as these other teams. I don't even see the same quality chances, let alone the same scoring.

 

I normally don't like to point to the success of former players and criticize the decision to let them go, but you really have to wonder about Max in Atlanta. 13 goals this season and last year he couldn't get on the ice? Max always gave effort. Something doesn't jive.

 

Marv Levy is a coach that many people loved, but he had his issues IMO. I was never a Levy fan then or now. I wonder if Ruff doesn't fall in the same category. Good enough to win over the believers, but not good enough to finish the job...

 

But, SDS, didn't Lindy tell you? Those pretty goals aren't "available" in the NHL anymore. All goals are scored in the paint, on rebounds, with bodies stacked up like firewood. If you get two goals in this league, you are fortunate. There's soooooo much parity. The teams really ARE that close.

 

Good topic. I'm glad to see someone else carrying the banner. Yes, Lindy stifles offensive talent. The numbers over 12 years back it up. His power plays have perenially been atrocious, yet he continues to set the direction for it. It has to be really tough for players to hear an offensive lecture from the guy.

 

And it's killing this team. It will be their undoing. They really are going to waste the one season we can say Miller is elite.

[Sabre Dance]

Marv Levy is a coach that many people loved, but he had his issues IMO. I was never a Levy fan then or now. I wonder if Ruff doesn't fall in the same category. Good enough to win over the believers, but not good enough to finish the job...

 

The two don't compare - Levy took a team that was talented but disorganized and turned them into a team that won 4 straight AFC championships, made the playoffs consistently and executed the biggest comeback in the history of the league up to that point (with their backup QB yet). Ruff inherited a really good team and took them to the Finals once. His teams have missed the playoffs as often as they have been in them. His winning percentage was just above .500 prior to this season. I don't even think this one is close.

[Sabre Dance]

Here's what I do when I start to question Ruff as our Head Coach, take it for what it's worth (not much);

 

Could another Coach get more production out of our players? I don't think so.

How do we know? We haven't tried a new coach in 12 years...

 

 

So I'm one of the guys who thinks it's not the Coach, it's the crap around the Coach. I have zero issues with his approach to the game, save for the PP, but I don't think that can be pinned on him yet either.

 

Lack of talent on the bench is certainly a factor, but how do you not blame coaching for a poor power-play? Isn't the coach the one who draws up the PP design? If the power play was going great guns, you can bet someone would be patting Lindy on the back for it.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again....I think Lindy is a good coach, but not a great one. Since we can't get rid of all of the current members of the team and begin with all new players, and if a change needs to be made, the only choice left is the coach. The Sabres are doing OK for now, but even if they make the playoffs, they're not going to scare anyone. How many times to you go back to a dry well before you realize there's just no water there?

[LabattBlue]

At the risk of repeating myself...

 

If the Sabres miss the playoffs or get smoked in the 1st round, I'd have no problem with Lindy and his assistants being shown the door. The main reason why I'd let Lindy go is that most of the players who have been around for a few years are either no longer improving or are regressing, with the exception being Miller. Am I supposed to believe that these guys have reached their peak performance by their mid 20's?

 

It is probably a combination of players and coaches and DR needs to decide which area needs fixing the most.

[SwampD]

No Comment.

[tom webster]

The two don't compare - Levy took a team that was talented but disorganized and turned them into a team that won 4 straight AFC championships, made the playoffs consistently and executed the biggest comeback in the history of the league up to that point (with their backup QB yet). Ruff inherited a really good team and took them to the Finals once. His teams have missed the playoffs as often as they have been in them. His winning percentage was just above .500 prior to this season. I don't even think this one is close.

 

 

Ryff inheriteed a mediocre, over achievinhg team that rode Hasek into the playoffs only to be "punked" by the Flyers in the second round when hasek wasn't there to bail them out. He turned them into a team that made the conference finals the next year and the finals the year after that.

He then adjusted ahead of everyone after the lock out to lead the team to two conference finals appearances when they were picked to be an also ran.

Ruff is 19th all time in NHL wins, has a .592 playoff percentage and is 86 games over .500.

As I said, Ruff isn't perfect, but don't diminish his record to fit your agenda.

[LabattBlue]

On top of that, Derel Roy refuses to grow up.

Say it ain't so! Remember all the off-season heart to heart talks between Lindy and Roy that were reported prior to the season beginning? This was the year we were going to see a more mature group of Sabres!

[LabattBlue]

No Comment.

Why not?

[tom webster]

At the risk of repeating myself...

 

If the Sabres miss the playoffs or get smoked in the 1st round, I'd have no problem with Lindy and his assistants being shown the door. The main reason why I'd let Lindy go is that most of the players who have been around for a few years are either no longer improving or are regressing, with the exception being Miller. Am I supposed to believe that these guys have reached their peak performance by their mid 20's?

 

It is probably a combination of players and coaches and DR needs to decide which area needs fixing the most.

 

 

Are they regressing or have they been elevated to roles they were never capable of being? Roy and Pominville were great in supporting roles, not so much as leaders.

You look at a team like Detroit, their supporting players, always thought to be being capable of being other team's stars, rarely do anything when they leave for another team. The difference with organizations like that and those like Buffalo is that Detroit keeps their leaders and just keeps replacing the supporting players. Buffalo tried replacing their leaders and promoting the supporting players. So far, only Miller and to a lesser extent Gaustad, have stepped up. Is that on Ruff or Reiger?

[SwampD]

Why not?

My thoughts on the subject are well documented.

[LabattBlue]

Is that on Ruff or Reiger?

As stated in my previous post, probably a little of both. If the players are truly not capable of rising to the next level, then shame on DR for not seeing this over the last two seasons. If DR has the blinders on and wasn't aware of it, I am sure Lindy was/is aware of it being in the locker room and on the ice day in, day out with these guys. So why wouldn't he go to DR this past offseason and demand more changes than Grier and Montador?

[tom webster]

As stated in my previous post, probably a little of both. If the players are truly not capable of rising to the next level, then shame on DR for not seeing this over the last two seasons. If DR has the blinders on and wasn't aware of it, I am sure Lindy was/is aware of it being in the locker room and on the ice day in, day out with these guys. So why wouldn't he go to DR this past offseason and demand more changes than Grier and Montador?

 

 

I completely agree with you, but I am not sure they can get out of the mess. They would need to find somebody to take on the contracts of either Timmy, Jason or Jochen and then find replacements. I think they have done a fine job of re-tooling the 3rd and 4th lines. Unfortunately, they are going to have to get lucky in order to improve the top 2.

 

One final note, I can almost guarantee you that Lindy did not sign off on the Connolly deal

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Ryff inheriteed a mediocre, over achievinhg team that rode Hasek into the playoffs only to be "punked" by the Flyers in the second round when hasek wasn't there to bail them out. He turned them into a team that made the conference finals the next year and the finals the year after that.

He then adjusted ahead of everyone after the lock out to lead the team to two conference finals appearances when they were picked to be an also ran.

Ruff is 19th all time in NHL wins, has a .592 playoff percentage and is 86 games over .500.

As I said, Ruff isn't perfect, but don't diminish his record to fit your agenda.

 

I agree with this, I also think that Lindy is a very versatile coach who has done well with teams with different styles, morphing his teams talents into something he can win with. As for Max, I wish him the best, but I really think in the end he will make every coach tear his hair out. Max is the ultimate example of ADD on skates that sums up his talent for me, unfocused raw skill that is hard to play with and even harder to coach.

[SwampD]

I love these threads. Looking at past seasons, when the team did well it's because of Ruff. When the team did poorly it's because of Regier.

[LabattBlue]

I completely agree with you, but I am not sure they can get out of the mess. They would need to find somebody to take on the contracts of either Timmy, Jason or Jochen and then find replacements. I think they have done a fine job of re-tooling the 3rd and 4th lines. Unfortunately, they are going to have to get lucky in order to improve the top 2.

 

One final note, I can almost guarantee you that Lindy did not sign off on the Connolly deal

Going back to what I wrote yesterday...Miller is entering his prime years which could be wasted if DR does not find a way to rid this team of the expensive dead weight or at least some of it.

[nfreeman]

The numbers over 12 years back it up.

As you know, this is simply wrong as a factual matter. The Sabres were in the top 5 in the league in scoring for 3 seasons in a row starting in 2005. Do you hold Lindy accountable for them ranking lower in the Hasek era? Is it his fault that Brian Holzinger and Curtis Brown weren't 40-goal guys?

 

I was sure this was going to be another PA thread when I saw the title. Look, I don't think Lindy walks on water but I agree with the sentiment that its the top 6 forwards that were vastly over rated by management. The contracts to Jochen Hecht and Tim Connolly were a joke. Anyone who has spent any time around any part of this team knows that both have similiar reputations. They want to be good palyers but have no drive and desire to be "the man." Both are notorious for working hard during practice, but stricly on a 9 to 5 basis. On top of that, Derel Roy refuses to grow up.

As for Max, unless I am mistaking, he is the only player to leave Buffalo and flourish offensively and he has tailed off dramatically recently.

Are they regressing or have they been elevated to roles they were never capable of being? Roy and Pominville were great in supporting roles, not so much as leaders.

You look at a team like Detroit, their supporting players, always thought to be being capable of being other team's stars, rarely do anything when they leave for another team. The difference with organizations like that and those like Buffalo is that Detroit keeps their leaders and just keeps replacing the supporting players. Buffalo tried replacing their leaders and promoting the supporting players. So far, only Miller and to a lesser extent Gaustad, have stepped up. Is that on Ruff or Reiger?

I completely agree with you, but I am not sure they can get out of the mess. They would need to find somebody to take on the contracts of either Timmy, Jason or Jochen and then find replacements. I think they have done a fine job of re-tooling the 3rd and 4th lines. Unfortunately, they are going to have to get lucky in order to improve the top 2.

 

One final note, I can almost guarantee you that Lindy did not sign off on the Connolly deal

3 excellent posts.

 

BTW, I'd take another Marv for the Bills right now in a heartbeat.

[LabattBlue]

BTW, I'd take another Marv for the Bills right now in a heartbeat.

If so, you better take another Jim, Andre, Thurman, Bruce & Darryl also! ;)

[tom webster]

I love these threads. Looking at past seasons, when the team did well it's because of Ruff. When the team did poorly it's because of Regier.

 

 

It's not that simple, and I know you know it. Putting a team together involves the relationship between coach and players and I do not know of a coach who can win without the right players, but plenty of good players who can't win without good coaching.

Belichek(sic?) was nothing, an impending disaster until he stumbled on a former college back up he had the "insight" to draft in the 6th round after drafting a bunch of washouts in the earlier rounds.

Lombardi couldn't win at Washington

Bowman couldn't win when he was responsible for getting the talent

Phil Jackson has the great coaching insight to make sure he had Michael and then Kobe and Shaq and later just Kobe.

 

Its why, as much as I like Lindy, if given the choice, I'll take Kopitar and James Patrick over Ruff and Roy.

[SwampD]

You would think that an elite coach wouldn't have to sell himself. You would think that star players would be lining up to play for an elite coach. You would think that star players would be willing to stay and take a hometown discount to be able to play for an elite coach, not leave at the first chance of a bigger payday or to not play at all.

 

Well, you might not but I sure would.

[SwampD]

It's not that simple, and I know you know it. Putting a team together involves the relationship between coach and players and I do not know of a coach who can win without the right players, but plenty of good players who can't win without good coaching.

Belichek(sic?) was nothing, an impending disaster until he stumbled on a former college back up he had the "insight" to draft in the 6th round after drafting a bunch of washouts in the earlier rounds.

Lombardi couldn't win at Washington

Bowman couldn't win when he was responsible for getting the talent

Phil Jackson has the great coaching insight to make sure he had Michael and then Kobe and Shaq and later just Kobe.

 

Its why, as much as I like Lindy, if given the choice, I'll take Kopitar and James Patrick over Ruff and Roy.

I did oversimplify and after rereading the thread it's actually not even what most of the posts said.