Fuzzy Math

[shrader]

Why didn't they give Briere or Drury a long term contract? They did give Drury a longterm deal and now he's in the last year of that 3 year deal. As for Briere, why is it completely the teams fault? Maybe Briere didn't want one or was only willing to sign some ridiculous long term offer. We don't know so we can't hold that against the team.

 

As for Miller, you can't question them for that yet either. You have to wait until he signs a contract. They had to take care of the time consuming arbitration cases before they could work out something with him. Even Miller's agent has come out and said as much.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I personnally think you are in a fantasy world. Golisano did not put the Sabres in his trust account and write them as a charity. He took a chance (I'll give him that) and bought a bankrupt team for about 90million dollars. Pittsburgh's going price is about 170 million. Not a bad investment. The Sabres and the Bills need to stop selling this small market crap, there are small mkt. teams out there that spend money. If you want to believe Tom cares when after the season he explained how we should not expect this year's revenue to show in payrolls fine. The guy just does not have a passion for the team, as much as you think. This is an investment to him nothing else. The guy is worth over a billion dollars, spent 25 million on a campaign everyone knew he didn't have a shot in (that was his passion) and is worried about spending few extra million on top notch players (briere). Why didn't we sign him to long term deal or Drury or where is Miller's. Because then we actually would be spending that money. I am not a run of the mill Sabres fan. I have invested over 20 years passionately watching the Sabres, when the NHL came back with a salary cap I was estatic. However, I have come to realize the days of having superstars around after they become superstars are over. and that bothers me. shrader, you are right I think next year will be tell tale sign of the direction this team is going to make. We will see.

 

In order to sign Briere to a long-term deal, or Drury, or Miller, it woudl require them giving them more money in each year of the contract, because who is going to sign a deal where they take a paycut every year? So if they had done those things, they would have hit the salary cap even faster and would have had to cut more guys loose like JP and you'd have something else to bitch about.

 

I appreciate your passion, but if Gollisano was just out to make a quick buck, "snowballing the fans" is not the way to do it. Even if they make another runn in the playoffs, at best he will make a couple million this season and by your theory he will then dismantle the team to get rid of high salaries, so attandance will drop, and then what? how does he make money? By selling the team? Who the hell is going to buy a team that has a history of bankruptcy, just dumped all its best players and ticked off its fanbase?

 

Like it or not, Buffalo IS a small market and will always have less revenue than most other teams. just because you don't like it won't make it any different. and yeah, that means a lot of times superstars are going to get too expensive IF they want to have a good team. If you would prefer they sign Briere, Drury and Miller to huge contracts and surround them with scrubs, they could probably do that. I think most of us would prefer the good team.

[Sabresince70]

I personnally think you are in a fantasy world. Golisano did not put the Sabres in his trust account and write them as a charity. He took a chance (I'll give him that) and bought a bankrupt team for about 90million dollars. Pittsburgh's going price is about 170 million. Not a bad investment. The Sabres and the Bills need to stop selling this small market crap, there are small mkt. teams out there that spend money. If you want to believe Tom cares when after the season he explained how we should not expect this year's revenue to show in payrolls fine. The guy just does not have a passion for the team, as much as you think. This is an investment to him nothing else. The guy is worth over a billion dollars, spent 25 million on a campaign everyone knew he didn't have a shot in (that was his passion) and is worried about spending few extra million on top notch players (briere). Why didn't we sign him to long term deal or Drury or where is Miller's. Because then we actually would be spending that money. I am not a run of the mill Sabres fan. I have invested over 20 years passionately watching the Sabres, when the NHL came back with a salary cap I was estatic. However, I have come to realize the days of having superstars around after they become superstars are over. and that bothers me. shrader, you are right I think next year will be tell tale sign of the direction this team is going to make. We will see.

If you invested 20 years in the Sabres, spend 20 minutes reading what Dave and others are telling you to read so that you understand it. And you have already spent more time reading and answering on this post than you would have spent with the CBA learning the facts. Your arguement is groundless from the moment you say/admit you don't KNOW the way the "cap hit" is formed. Others have provided links that my 11 year old can understand.

[Bmwolf21]

If you want to believe Tom cares when after the season he explained how we should not expect this year's revenue to show in payrolls fine. The guy just does not have a passion for the team, as much as you think. This is an investment to him nothing else.

 

Seriously, I don't know WTF you are talking about. I've read a lot of articles this offseason, and I don't remember him ever saying whatever the hell it is you said there. I DO, however, remember Darcy and Larry Quinn saying that the payroll would increase significantly, but neither would be locked into a specific figure.

And maybe the Sabres are just an investment to him. If it was, why not do what the Oakland A's and Twins do, and sell off their best players when their contracts are up? Why not keep the salaries at the very bottom? Why not have a fire sale this offseason? If he has no passion, why was he seen jumping & screaming after the playoff OT winners? Oh, he must have been excited that his investment was increasing in value. <_<

 

However, I have come to realize the days of having superstars around after they become superstars are over. and that bothers me.

If you want to keep following teams that are superstars only, you don't need to look far. Head east, young man, and look at the NY Rangers or the Philadelphia Flyers - both one-trick ponies with one line of superstars and AHL players to round out lines 2-4. Look to the SC Champs from two years ago, who have invested nearly HALF their payroll on three forwards - yeah, they'll be a deep team.

 

Why didn't we sign him to long term deal or Drury or where is Miller's. Because then we actually would be spending that money.

Briere had every right to go to arbitration; the mechanism is there for when the team and the player are far apart on the players' worth. He hit the jackpot, good for him, bad for the team. As for Miller, he and his agent are talking with the Sabres about a long-term deal; IIRC, they were just waiting for the other players to finish up so the Sabres could concetrate on Miller.

 

I am not a run of the mill Sabres fan. I have invested over 20 years passionately watching the Sabres,

Neither am I, nor are most of the posters on here. I also don't live in a "fantasy world" but it seems you live in your own world, whether it be alcohol and/or pharmaceutically created, or the result of a head injury.

But for you to come on here and start lecturing us that we don't know what we're talking about, its a grand conspiracy, etc, is not only ridiculous, its also rude and stupid. This will be my last post on the subject, since you apparently woke up pissed off at the world and decided to strike out at the closest target.

 

My original question still stands: Did you really join the board today just to bitch about the Sabres and WGR trying to pull a fast one on the city and fans?

 

Sorry but you make less sense and look like a bigger moron with every post.

 

If you don't want to support the team because of some delusions about the owner being cheap when he spent millions of dollars to save something no one else would, then just don't support them, none of us will miss you. But don't just make baseless accusations and ignore the people who understand what is going on and try to explain it to you because it doesn't fit your fantasy world.

 

^^^^What he said.^^^^

[mphs mike]

Note to self: NEVER read a post by "uptick75" or you will deserve the slow death you die from acting like Bmwolf21's avatar.

 

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER

[Bmwolf21]

Note to self: NEVER read a post by "uptick75" or you will deserve the slow death you die from acting like Bmwolf21's avatar.

 

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER

 

How about this one?

 

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/bmw...1/poundhead.gif

[uptick75]

BM wolf 21, it is rude and stupid to try to establish my point. I have yet to call one person a derogatory term, (please find it so you could quote me on it) I am getting blasted by about 7-8 different people because I don't buy into the Sabres organization, so I am replying to all of your messages with my explanation. I joined the message board to expess my viewpoint, you might think it is stupid, it is just my opinion, I didn't know that if I criticize the team I am not welcomed. You have all made good points, some I will have to consider, but I am expressing my gut instinct on this, and it doesnt seem right to me. You are assuming that all of sudden Tom does not mind spending money and I disagree. I work in the investment industry, I here spin every day from companies explaining why there company is a good buy even though its earnings were crushed this year. I live in Buffalo the spin capital of the world, as I listen to all our politicians telling us about this project and that project. The jersey fiasco. etc... When I here it, I read into, sometimes I am right sometimes I am wrong. I hope that one day I can be as enthusiatic about the Sabres as you guys are, but with Golisano, Quinn, and Regier, I just don't know.

[nfreeman]

How about this one?

 

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g280/bmw...1/poundhead.gif

 

 

I must say, that link made the agony of reading this entire thread worthwhile. Muchas gracias.

 

As for uptick's "thoughts", they simply don't merit a response.

[shrader]

The problem is that your gut instict is the stereotypical small market fan: constant complaining about the team being cheap. It get old really fast.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Sometimes I am right sometimes I am wrong. I hope that one day I can be as enthusiatic about the Sabres as you guys are, but with Golisano, Quinn, and Regier, I just don't know.

 

Well see, if you had just started with that, we could have avoided this whole thing. Hell, half the posters here don't trust those 3 guys. But you came out guns a' blazin' telling us we live in a fantasy world and basing your argument on a flawed perception of how the cap works. Once you understand it a little better you still may think management is completely incompetent and screwed things up, and like i said many here will agree with you. But please trust us when we say the cap situation is not what it is so they can trick the fans into THINKING they spent money. It is all out in the open how much they actually spend and they are making more of an effort to keep the team together than many, including me, expected.

[hopeleslyobvious]

Hey, if there's nothing to complain about, make something up.

[Bmwolf21]

I must say, that link made the agony of reading this entire thread worthwhile. Muchas gracias.

 

As for uptick's "thoughts", they simply don't merit a response.

I wanted to use that GIF file as my avatar, but the file size is way too big. Plus, another poster uses it on the Florida State message board, and it gets old real fast...

[mrjsbu96]

First off most people have read or listen to the radio about how they are at the $44 million cap, they won't look at the hard numbers.

 

Secondly, they will still be in the bottom 10th of the league in salaries this year and again won't pick anyone at the trade deadline even if they have the money.

 

Why would they create this allusion? Maybe because they have 12k people that have gooten season tickets, the Sabres have never been more important in this area, and maybe they don't want to explain the real reason that don't want to spend the money....Tom is cheap.

 

I was listening to the radio yesterday and heard Regeir and the WGR guys now tell me that its the NHL's fault with this new CBA that we couldn''t sign our players, and I think that they are snowballing us. As I said before tell will only tell. The CBA works, it is just a matter of how much you want to spend. I don't think Calgary is a big market team, by any stretch and they have no problem spending their money

 

 

Hockey news is slow and I need a break from the logo fiasco, so I am willing to engage and I will admit I don't pretend to understand 1/2 of the CBA that dave, pipes, bmwolf, etc have already posted, so I will go back to the Calgary comment. Calgary is no Philly or NYC, but Calgary is probably 3x the size of Buffalo, has huge economic gas/oil resources, along with fans probably even more passionate than the Sabres. I would imagine Calgary like so many other cities does have corporate backing in the form of sponsors, suites, and season tickets on a much grander level than the Sabres. So, when Calgary suffers on the ice it probably will not affect the organization like the Sabres who rely heavily on retail ticket sales on a level unlike most other teams, which is why this organization has to be extremely careful on balancing the bottom line vs on-ice product. I don't interpret that to mean that Golisano and Regier are cheap, rather they have an economic model in place that requires strict adherence.

 

I also don't know how you can question Golisano's dedication to this team. You are right, it is not charity and it is a business, but I don't know many owners that were as passionate about their team in the playoffs last year like this guy...or even the regular season for that matter

[sabrefan100]

Uptick75 - You make no sense. You are part of the problem with Buffalo. All of this negativity is disgusting. You have to be a liberal and hate the government too. You obviously don't like Tom because you are jealous of his money. The Sabres will win the cup this year. They have a great team and are doing everything they can to give us more years of Sabre bliss. Are you a season ticket holder? Do you even go to hockey games and support the team. My guess is probably not. You just wait for something to happen and cry cry cry. Thank God for Tom, Darcy, Lindy, and Larry Quinn. They are the reasons there is still a team in Buffalo...... Now go listen to your liberal radio and find something new to complain about. You are a joke..........

 

I'm out

[PASabreFan]

I go back to a question I have asked over and over, in various forms. Is the problem that the market is small or that the marketing is small (read: ineffective). The Bills with that whiz kid Brandon have been able in the last decade to regionalize the franchise, cozy up to the business community and keep the stadium filled despite one losing team after another. They didn't succumb to the small-market excuse. I don't see why the Sabres be just as successful. Hopefully they are in the process of doing that. But here in my neck of the woods in northern PA, we're back to the stone age with no local radio affiliate for the Sabres (WGR's signal is very weak) and no MSG on our cable system. Doesn't sound like regionalizing the franchise.

 

As for Tom and "passion," I don't know, man. He might be the most passionate owner in hockey, but he doesn't really show it. Very often, when shown after goals in the playoffs, when everyone else was going apesh*t, he was sitting down. After one overtime goal, he just sat there holding his head. Maybe that's how he shows passion. Again, I'm not knocking him. I know he cares, I love that he bought the team and I love for the most part how the offseason has gone... but, objectively speaking, I don't see how anyone can say he's passionate. He seems like one cool, calculating customer -- and for an owner that can work too.

[Eleven]

Uptick75 - You make no sense. You are part of the problem with Buffalo. All of this negativity is disgusting. You have to be a liberal and hate the government too. You obviously don't like Tom because you are jealous of his money. The Sabres will win the cup this year. They have a great team and are doing everything they can to give us more years of Sabre bliss. Are you a season ticket holder? Do you even go to hockey games and support the team. My guess is probably not. You just wait for something to happen and cry cry cry. Thank God for Tom, Darcy, Lindy, and Larry Quinn. They are the reasons there is still a team in Buffalo...... Now go listen to your liberal radio and find something new to complain about. You are a joke..........

 

I'm out

 

What of uptick's comments gives you insights into his political beliefs?

[hopeleslyobvious]

I go back to a question I have asked over and over, in various forms. Is the problem that the market is small or that the marketing is small (read: ineffective). The Bills with that whiz kid Brandon have been able in the last decade to regionalize the franchise, cozy up to the business community and keep the stadium filled despite one losing team after another. [\quote]

 

Bills: 8 home games a year.

Sabres: 41 home games a year.

 

There is part of your answer.

[BetweenThePipes00]

I go back to a question I have asked over and over, in various forms. Is the problem that the market is small or that the marketing is small (read: ineffective). The Bills with that whiz kid Brandon have been able in the last decade to regionalize the franchise, cozy up to the business community and keep the stadium filled despite one losing team after another. They didn't succumb to the small-market excuse. I don't see why the Sabres be just as successful. Hopefully they are in the process of doing that. But here in my neck of the woods in northern PA, we're back to the stone age with no local radio affiliate for the Sabres (WGR's signal is very weak) and no MSG on our cable system. Doesn't sound like regionalizing the franchise.

 

The Bills have done a great job, to be sure, but they have some built in advantages the Sabres do not, especially when it comes to regionalization:

 

- The Sabres have tried for years to get on TV more in Southern Ontario and can't do it. It's part of the reason they tried their own TV network, which failed miserably. Meanwhile the Bills are on TV there every Sunday.

 

- Rochester is a HUGE resource for the Bills ... it's easier to sell a season ticket to someone who knows they need to make the trip to Buffalo 8 times a year on a Sunday afternoon than it is to someone who would have to probably leave work early on a game night to make the drive to the game and then not get home until after midnight and have to get up for work the next day. It's the reason for a long time the Bills told the NFL they did not want night home games. And for the Sabres they'd have to do that 30-40 times a season (even allowing for some Saturday games). It's the same thing with where you are (Bradford, I think I remember?) ... that's not a fun drive in the middle of the night on 219 ... and would a Bradford radio station really even want to put the games on? I don't know, maybe they would ... and maybe it is something they can do better, but it is not as easy as it is for the Bills.

 

- The league also takes care of televising all the Bills games, and all they have to do is cash the giant checks that roll in from it. the Sabres have to find someone to televise the games and convince them maybe to give them some money for it. Compared to ANY NFL team, the entire NHL is a small-market club because each NFL team pulls in hundreds of millions just for being part of the league TV package.

 

- And yet, despite all this, the Bills Do complain about being small-market, or at least Ralph Wilson does and he was very vocal about it when the new CBA went though. i am not saying he is wrong, compared to most of the NFL the Bills do have issues because of the market.

 

 

 

I am not saying the Sabres are great at all this stuff, just that it is not as easy to regionalize a hockey franchise. They would probably have to pay radio stations to become affiliates just to get the team exposure, and maybe that would be worth it. But to compare them to the Bills I think is apples and oranges.

[Eleven]

I go back to a question I have asked over and over, in various forms. Is the problem that the market is small or that the marketing is small (read: ineffective). The Bills with that whiz kid Brandon have been able in the last decade to regionalize the franchise, cozy up to the business community and keep the stadium filled despite one losing team after another. They didn't succumb to the small-market excuse. I don't see why the Sabres be just as successful. Hopefully they are in the process of doing that. But here in my neck of the woods in northern PA, we're back to the stone age with no local radio affiliate for the Sabres (WGR's signal is very weak) and no MSG on our cable system. Doesn't sound like regionalizing the franchise.

 

 

This is a good point & hopefully, the new ownership will address it. The Sabres need to grab more radio and TV dollars, and regionalized marketing should be an important component. Are there Sabre relay radio broadcasts in Ontario?

 

MSG is a tough situation, but one the Sabres need to endure until there's another local option.

 

Partnering with businesses: Under the Rigas ownership, businesses purchasing luxury boxes for the Sabres were also required to purchase the box for college basketball games, concerts, circuses, etc. This is of course a bad policy. Is Golisano continuing the practice? Is he doing enough to make packages attractive to businesses who want to entertain at Sabres games? Remember, there are only so many customers in Buffalo to be taken out for an evening; perhaps the Sabres need to team up with hotels or limo companies to offer discounts to businesses who want to entertain clients from Rochester, Erie, or even Cleveland.

[shrader]

It's a much more difficult task to regionalize a hockey team. Even if the two leagues were on the same level, a decent portion of the market that exists for the Bills would be taken away from the Sabres by the Leafs. Another thing the Bills have going for them is that there are no minor league franchises that can take fans away from them. Sure, you can say that Amerks fans should be Sabres fans too, but if you lived in Rochester with a very cheap hockey ticket right around the corner, would you make that much longer drive out to Buffalo very often?

 

I wish I knew more about other team's markets, but does anyone know if there is much regionalization going on for any of the American teams?

[Eleven]

 

 

- Rochester is a HUGE resource for the Bills ... it's easier to sell a season ticket to someone who knows they need to make the trip to Buffalo 8 times a year on a Sunday afternoon than it is to someone who would have to probably leave work early on a game night to make the drive to the game and then not get home until after midnight and have to get up for work the next day. It's the reason for a long time the Bills told the NFL they did not want night home games. And for the Sabres they'd have to do that 30-40 times a season (even allowing for some Saturday games). It's the same thing with where you are (Bradford, I think I remember?) ... that's not a fun drive in the middle of the night on 219 ... and would a Bradford radio station really even want to put the games on? I don't know, maybe they would ... and maybe it is something they can do better, but it is not as easy as it is for the Bills.

 

 

One thing the Sabres HAVE done right is similar to the Bills policy concerning night games: the Sabs have many more home weekend games than they used to. They suffer through more back-to-backs than any other NHL team as a result, but it makes it easier for the out-of-towner to attend games.

[sabrefan100]

Uptick or should I say Upidiot, you finally went away. I say good riddens and stay away.. You lost the argument so go crawl in your hole and hide until the sabres lose 1 game and then you cry cry cry......

[shrader]

Uptick or should I say Upidiot, you finally went away. I say good riddens and stay away.. You lost the argument so go crawl in your hole and hide until the sabres lose 1 game and then you cry cry cry......

 

While we're at it, why don't you join him too?

[uptick75]

My whole arguement to start revolved around the Sabres cheapness and the way they spin everything in the media, and a theory I had revolving around the last spin I heard. You guys may argue that I will find everything to complian about, but after reading this message board, I have realized that you guys will defend the Sabres no matter what. Being cheap is doing what Galisano did to the scouting department and I hear that he is being innovative. If there are any football fans around hear the team that got blasted for this a few years ago was the Bungles and their "cheap" owner, Brown. I have noticed over the past year since WGR has had the Sabres that their radio station defends them over everything, even the jerseys which pissed off alot of people on this board.

 

I think Golisano is cheap and does use the small mkt. crap a little bit too much. Don't forget we do not have access to the team's financials, because it is a private company. We here about the bottom line, yet don't know how they get to it. I used to hate the big markets and owners and complain how unfair things are. However, I have changed my mind bit on that when I watch baseball and see all of these "small market" teams pocketing their revenue sharing, cry poor, and are very profitable. Or listening to Ralph, complain about Snyder and how he runs his business. When Ralph bought this team for 60k, doesn't pay any debt on this team, and does not try to maximize his profit (stadium rights), and then wants more money from Dan.

 

Maybe these sports leagues have gotten to big for us? I dont know. I personally think that owners do not buy teams for the business stand point, if they do it isn't to smart. There are far too many business with better margins, less costs, and less headaches that a sports team. My feeling is that some owners are cheap and some are not. I am not a big fan of Cuban, but I agree with him when he said (paraphasing) Some owners worry about losing money and some owners worry about losing. This community supports its teams and I am sick of hear the whining coming out of these owners.

[sabrefan100]

Hey Jimmy fly snooka, go fly a kite you liberal jerk.... Uptick - good point I agree with you 100% Marc Cuban is great. He does not care if he loses money. By the way how much money did his dallas mavericks make last year? Like I said he does not care about losing money..... go eat a chaluppa.......... :blink: