Doan > Peterka?

[Archie Lee]

I hope as a fan that I never get to the point where I’m so enamoured by a GM’s work that I would defend their every move, even when they make an obvious mistake on a player transaction. I hope the opposite is also true.

I think we fans are generally too quick to want to declare winners and losers in trades. Given the ages of these players, there is a long way to go on judging this one. 

I was not thrilled with the trade at the time, mostly because I thought, and still think, Adams backed himself into a corner and was reacting to a negative situation of his own creation, rather than proactively making a trade to make the team better. I would not reverse the trade today though. Right now, as with the McLeod and Byram deals, I am pleased with the trade on the micro-level, but it has not proven to be very impactful on the macro-level. 

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

In fairness though, Doan is looking more like a bottom 6 guy lately as well. He's fine, but also not that great. 

Still remains to be seen if we won the trade or lost it (and it might actually be even) and we won't know at all until we see more from Kesselring. 

Well, I am not a "won the trade" guy.   

Doan is fine, he is being pushed by getting 1st line and PP minutes.   Doan looks more of a middle 6, than bottom 6 to me.  

Kesselring was the big piece of that trade. 

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

In fairness though, Doan is looking more like a bottom 6 guy lately as well. He's fine, but also not that great. 

Still remains to be seen if we won the trade or lost it (and it might actually be even) and we won't know at all until we see more from Kesselring. 

See this, this is why I pushed back so hard against your "eye test tells me everything" schtick in the other thread. 

[Trettioåtta]

19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

See this, this is why I pushed back so hard against your "eye test tells me everything" schtick in the other thread. 

No, he's right. Doan is on track for nearly 60 points. Thats low end 3rd line, more like upper 4th line, stats on a playoff bubble team.

[shrader]

7 minutes ago, Trettioåtta said:

No, he's right. Doan is on track for nearly 60 points. Thats low end 3rd line, more like upper 4th line, stats on a playoff bubble team.

60 points from a 4th line guy? Sign me up right now. What’s the top line getting, 200?

[kas23]

47 minutes ago, Trettioåtta said:

No, he's right. Doan is on track for nearly 60 points. Thats low end 3rd line, more like upper 4th line, stats on a playoff bubble team.

I just picked Colorado randomly. They have a 3rd line of Goaloffson, Drury, and Nichushkin. None of them have eclipsed 60 points in their careers. Carolina: Carrier, Staal, Martinook. None of them have ever reached 60 points. 
 

Edit: add Tampa Bay. Girg and Homberg. Speaks for themselves. Hannibal Gourde did have one great year of 64 points in 2017. All other years he’s around 30-40 points. 

Edited Wednesday at 03:29 PM by kas23

[Trettioåtta]

47 minutes ago, shrader said:

60 points from a 4th line guy? Sign me up right now. What’s the top line getting, 200?

 

9 minutes ago, kas23 said:

I just picked Colorado randomly. They have a 3rd line of Goaloffson, Drury, and Nichushkin. None of them have eclipsed 60 points in their careers. Carolina: Carrier, Staal, Martinook. None of them have ever reached 60 points. 
 

Edit: add Tampa Bay. Girg and Homberg. Speaks for themselves. Hannibal Gourde did have one great year of 64 points in 2017. All other years he’s around 30-40 points. 

/s

60 points is first line numbers (76 forwards reached that bench mark last year). 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Trettioåtta said:

No, he's right. Doan is on track for nearly 60 points. Thats low end 3rd line, more like upper 4th line, stats on a playoff bubble team.

lol, well played

[Jorcus]

8 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

I hope as a fan that I never get to the point where I’m so enamoured by a GM’s work that I would defend their every move, even when they make an obvious mistake on a player transaction. I hope the opposite is also true.

I think we fans are generally too quick to want to declare winners and losers in trades. Given the ages of these players, there is a long way to go on judging this one. 

I was not thrilled with the trade at the time, mostly because I thought, and still think, Adams backed himself into a corner and was reacting to a negative situation of his own creation, rather than proactively making a trade to make the team better. I would not reverse the trade today though. Right now, as with the McLeod and Byram deals, I am pleased with the trade on the micro-level, but it has not proven to be very impactful on the macro-level. 

It's funny though as much as Adams may have made lemonade out of a lemon situation there still seems to be a perception that that if you trade with the Sabres you are going to get the better player. I was watching Ottawa play Montreal last night and the announcers were talking about Cousins and how players improve when the leave the Sabres. Just as they were saying that Cousins got blasted off his skates by a Canadian. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

6 hours ago, Trettioåtta said:

No, he's right. Doan is on track for nearly 60 points. Thats low end 3rd line, more like upper 4th line, stats on a playoff bubble team.

No it’s not.  60 pts last year made you tied for 74th in forward scoring.  That’s first line level scoring.   Florida’s 2nd line had from 45-53 pts last season.  

[kas23]

15 minutes ago, Jorcus said:

It's funny though as much as Adams may have made lemonade out of a lemon situation there still seems to be a perception that that if you trade with the Sabres you are going to get the better player. I was watching Ottawa play Montreal last night and the announcers were talking about Cousins and how players improve when the leave the Sabres. Just as they were saying that Cousins got blasted off his skates by a Canadian. 

Clearly Norris is heads and shoulders above Cozens. The only wrinkle here is the injury risk. 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, Jorcus said:

It's funny though as much as Adams may have made lemonade out of a lemon situation there still seems to be a perception that that if you trade with the Sabres you are going to get the better player. I was watching Ottawa play Montreal last night and the announcers were talking about Cousins and how players improve when the leave the Sabres. Just as they were saying that Cousins got blasted off his skates by a Canadian. 

Ottawa has a "Cousins" but that is Nick Cousins.  When you say "Cousins" and Ottawa, I assume you are referring to Dylan Cozens (with a Z)?

There is some strange media perception about Cozens that they like him a lot more than how good he is.

He hasn't really gotten better. He has a couple more PP goals, that is about it, but his defensive numbers/awareness are as bad as ever.

He's been there for 53 total games now (including playoffs) and has 14 goals, 20 assists and is a -16. 

Thats an 82 game pace of 21.6 goals, 30.9 assists, and -24.7.

His last 2 years in Buffalo (we wont' even count his 'good' year) he played 140 games, had 29 goals and 49 assists and was a -17.

Thats an 82 game pace of 17 goals, 28.7 assists, and -9.9.

Not all that much different. A smidge more offensive productions, but his +/- is more than a 'smidge' worse.  And keep in mind, this is supposedly on a 'better' team where he is dead last in =/-.

Not to mention his analytics.  Similar to Buffalo, when he moves aound in Ottawa, the guys that are put with him usually have worse analtyics with him, and they get better when they are taken away from Cozens. 

In Ottawa even strength, when he is on the ice the opposition scores a goal every 17 minutes. When he was in Buffalo it was a bit better at 17.5 minutes..and supposedly he has a 'better' team and better goaltending behind him now.  If he got better once he left Buffalo, why is this bad number (along with many others) actually worse with Ottawa?

Deep dive into his analytics, and in Ottawa his Goals for vs against percentage is VERY negative (worse than it was in Buffalo), and expected goals are negative, and his corsi, fenwick, and shots for/vs/against percentage are all lower than he was in Buffalo.

He is, basically the EXACT same player he was in Buffalo.  I'd argue every so slightly worse and he is dragging his linemates down more than he even did hear and is on the ice for more goals against.

Edited Wednesday at 09:51 PM by mjd1001

[Jorcus]

58 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Ottawa has a "Cousins" but that is Nick Cousins.  When you say "Cousins" and Ottawa, I assume you are referring to Dylan Cozens (with a Z)?

There is some strange media perception about Cozens that they like him a lot more than how good he is.

He hasn't really gotten better. He has a couple more PP goals, that is about it, but his defensive numbers/awareness are as bad as ever.

He's been there for 53 total games now (including playoffs) and has 14 goals, 20 assists and is a -16. 

Thats an 82 game pace of 21.6 goals, 30.9 assists, and -24.7.

His last 2 years in Buffalo (we wont' even count his 'good' year) he played 140 games, had 29 goals and 49 assists and was a -17.

Thats an 82 game pace of 17 goals, 28.7 assists, and -9.9.

Not all that much different. A smidge more offensive productions, but his +/- is more than a 'smidge' worse.  And keep in mind, this is supposedly on a 'better' team where he is dead last in =/-.

Not to mention his analytics.  Similar to Buffalo, when he moves aound in Ottawa, the guys that are put with him usually have worse analtyics with him, and they get better when they are taken away from Cozens. 

In Ottawa even strength, when he is on the ice the opposition scores a goal every 17 minutes. When he was in Buffalo it was a bit better at 17.5 minutes..and supposedly he has a 'better' team and better goaltending behind him now.  If he got better once he left Buffalo, why is this bad number (along with many others) actually worse with Ottawa?

Deep dive into his analytics, and in Ottawa his Goals for vs against percentage is VERY negative (worse than it was in Buffalo), and expected goals are negative, and his corsi, fenwick, and shots for/vs/against percentage are all lower than he was in Buffalo. 

He is, basically the EXACT same player he was in Buffalo.  I'd argue every so slightly worse and he is dragging his linemates down more than he even did hear and is on the ice for more goals against.

 

Yes I ment to say Cozens. I do feel that he is the same player that left here. He is scoring a bit more this year. The only thing I would point out is Ottawa's goaltending is worse than ours is this year and it's costing them a lot of money. 

[mjd1001]

10 minutes ago, Jorcus said:

 

Yes I ment to say Cozens. I do feel that he is the same player that left here. He is scoring a bit more this year. The only thing I would point out is Ottawa's goaltending is worse than ours is this year and it's costing them a lot of money. 

A goal is a goal is a goal, they all count and they are all important.  But one thing that is different is he is scoring pretty well on the PP for them, but not so much even strength.

Dylan Cozens has 7 PP goals in 47 regular season games for Ottawa. He had a total of 12 for Buffalo in 341 regular season games.  In Ottawa a PP goal every 6.7 games, in Buffalo a PP goal every 28.4 games (and remember, he spent most of his career in Buffalo on the 1st PP unit and I think in his time here only Tage had more PP time as a forward than Cozens did)

On the other hand, even Ottawa fans are coming to the realization his has little 'hockey sense' and is a liability on the ice even strength.  And he has gone 20 straight games without an even strength or shorthanded goal. Its PP or bust for him right now.

We view the trade as Doan/Kesserling for Peterka, and Norris for Cozens.  That makes sense because that is who they were traded for, and Doan is a winger like JJP and Norris is a C like Coznes.  But in terms of quality of play, how they slot into roles besides their position...its more like Norris is taking the 'role' that JJP had, and Doan is taking what we wanted from Cozens (some toughness, leadership, net front presense, 2 way game, etc.)

I'm confident from that point of view Dylan Cozens has a bit more 'raw talent' than Doan, but we are getting out of Doan a LOT more of the stuff we wanted from Cozens but never really got.

Edited Wednesday at 11:08 PM by mjd1001

[Jorcus]

2 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

A goal is a goal is a goal, they all count and they are all important.  But one thing that is different is he is scoring pretty well on the PP for them, but not so much even strength.

Dylan Cozens has 7 PP goals in 47 regular season games for Ottawa. He had a total of 12 for Buffalo in 341 regular season games.  In Ottawa a PP goal every 6.7 games, in Buffalo a PP goal every 28.4 games (and remember, he spent most of his career in Buffalo on the 1st PP unit and I think in his time here only Tage had more PP time as a forward than Cozens did)

On the other hand, even Ottawa fans are coming to the realization his has little 'hockey sense' and is a liability on the ice even strength.  And he has gone 20 straight games without an even strength or shorthanded goal. Its PP or bust for him right now.

Well that may change. With the return of Brady Tkachuck he is bumped to PP2. If you watch highlight videos of Cozens most of his goals come from skating with speed toward the net. He can score from distance but its the open rush shot where he puts them in. He is not very good at net front scrum hockey. He is willing, just not effective.

[PerreaultForever]

13 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Well, I am not a "won the trade" guy.   

Doan is fine, he is being pushed by getting 1st line and PP minutes.   Doan looks more of a middle 6, than bottom 6 to me.  

Kesselring was the big piece of that trade. 

Ya, Doan is third line on many teams and 4th line on a really good team. He's playing too far up the line up because we lack veteran Zucker types.

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

See this, this is why I pushed back so hard against your "eye test tells me everything" schtick in the other thread. 

So you think Doan is a top 6 guy then? Really?

[BlowLeafsBlow123]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Ya, Doan is third line on many teams and 4th line on a really good team. He's playing too far up the line up because we lack veteran Zucker types.

So you think Doan is a top 6 guy then? Really?

Personally, I think he's a legit top 6 forward as much or more than Peterka is. He'll never be as dynamic as Peterka, but he has much better forechecking, passing, hockey sense and grit. This is what leads to his off the charts analytics, he gets the puck and then consistently makes smart plays with it. He is constantly winning battles to get the puck and then actually making a good play with it. He's honest to god a top 3-5 passer on the team. His shot, finishing ability, wheels are all in a lower tier but he makes up for it in so many ways. He's basically a bigger, more experienced version of Benson with a little less rat in his game.

He's a better fit for this roster and what they've needed. He helps their PP a ton, and is a glue guy for any line he's put on and is typically the best player on his line. Granted, I think if you're relying on him to be much more than he is today then we'll likely be disappointed. I think he tops out as a 20G/60P guy, and might even achieve that this year. Having that on your second line is nothing to sneer at.

How I see it, he's going to be a key piece whenever we do turn this thing around. I think they need to get better at the higher positions in the top 6. We cannot continue thinking we can be a playoff team with Tage and Tuch as our two best forwards. Whether that's bottoming out and getting a real impact player via the draft or somehow making a big trade, that's probably the biggest issue with this roster that is not talked about. When that does happen, you'll be very happy to have guys like Doan and Benson that have off the charts hockey IQ and can plug and play on any line. Sorry for the long winded response.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, BlowLeafsBlow123 said:

Personally, I think he's a legit top 6 forward as much or more than Peterka is. He'll never be as dynamic as Peterka, but he has much better forechecking, passing, hockey sense and grit. This is what leads to his off the charts analytics, he gets the puck and then consistently makes smart plays with it. He is constantly winning battles to get the puck and then actually making a good play with it. He's honest to god a top 3-5 passer on the team. His shot, finishing ability, wheels are all in a lower tier but he makes up for it in so many ways. He's basically a bigger, more experienced version of Benson with a little less rat in his game.

He's a better fit for this roster and what they've needed. He helps their PP a ton, and is a glue guy for any line he's put on and is typically the best player on his line. Granted, I think if you're relying on him to be much more than he is today then we'll likely be disappointed. I think he tops out as a 20G/60P guy, and might even achieve that this year. Having that on your second line is nothing to sneer at.

How I see it, he's going to be a key piece whenever we do turn this thing around. I think they need to get better at the higher positions in the top 6. We cannot continue thinking we can be a playoff team with Tage and Tuch as our two best forwards. Whether that's bottoming out and getting a real impact player via the draft or somehow making a big trade, that's probably the biggest issue with this roster that is not talked about. When that does happen, you'll be very happy to have guys like Doan and Benson that have off the charts hockey IQ and can plug and play on any line. Sorry for the long winded response.

Well at this point in his career I don't think Benson is a legit top 6 forward either. Now don't get me wrong, I like Benson and I like Doan. I think they are the type of players the team has been lacking, but Benson is far from fully developed and Doan is either not fully developed or if he is not quite there. They are imperfect pieces trying to give top lines the missing element. 

We have a lot of good third liners, but they all end up playing too high in the line up. There's a lot of the "same" on the team. 

[BlowLeafsBlow123]

14 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well at this point in his career I don't think Benson is a legit top 6 forward either. Now don't get me wrong, I like Benson and I like Doan. I think they are the type of players the team has been lacking, but Benson is far from fully developed and Doan is either not fully developed or if he is not quite there. They are imperfect pieces trying to give top lines the missing element. 

We have a lot of good third liners, but they all end up playing too high in the line up. There's a lot of the "same" on the team. 

I agree that Benson is not fully developed. I'm also confident he'll get there...needs to work on his shooting ala Reinhart, but he'll never be a big time goal scorer, more a playmaker of course.

Doan however has been very productive and a play driver every game he's been in our top 6. Lindy started him lower in the lineup and as soon as he was moved up he's been consistently productive. Again, he should NOT be the most skilled player on his line but he is a creative player in his own right and makes the smart possession-keeping play 9 times out of 10. When you compare that to guys like Tage and Tuch who are lower IQ/hockey sense guys, it's much needed. That was the problem with Peterka in this lineup, he was another who seemed to lack hockey sense. You can only have so many of those guys clogging up your top 6. Personally, I think we still have one too many. One or Tage or Tuch will need to go and be replaced by a smarter skilled guy to get over the hump. That's an entirely different conversation however.

[Pimlach]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well at this point in his career I don't think Benson is a legit top 6 forward either. Now don't get me wrong, I like Benson and I like Doan. I think they are the type of players the team has been lacking, but Benson is far from fully developed and Doan is either not fully developed or if he is not quite there. They are imperfect pieces trying to give top lines the missing element. 

We have a lot of good third liners, but they all end up playing too high in the line up. There's a lot of the "same" on the team. 

Benson and Doan may be playing higher in the lineup than they should, but they are not the problem on this team.  Doan is performing on any line.   Benson seems to have cooled off after a good start.  His playing on the first line and having 0 goals at this point in the season is a problem.  Benson does not have an NHL shot.  Hate to say it, he is a good player, but the fact that he is one of the teams better options to play on the first line is a problem.  

I look at teams like Utah and the Ducks.  Even Montreal and Philly.   Why are they better?  

Is there really much difference in the talent on the rosters of these teams?   I think not. 

The Sabres just give up too many goals and it is not all on the goalies.   The team makes way too many mistakes in their own end.  

I think the Utah coach is getting all there is out of his young and improving roster.  Joel Quenneville is getting everything out of the surprising Ducks roster.  Martin St Louis is getting everything out of a middling Habs roster.  

Lindy Ruff is not pushing the right buttons.  He seems just as defeated as the players.   You can tell by the Sabre Power Play that this coaching staff is not good enough.  

But the big problem is goals against. Like the TNT guys said, and Biz has been very negative about this team,  the Sabre take plays off and they take short cuts, and they get burned by it over and over again. 

The TNT cast pointed put that none of the defense other than Dahlin will even hit the other team.  No forwards have any fear playing deep in the Sabres zone.   Lundqvist was trying to be nice but said it clearly - they can't figure out how to defend because its hard and too many of their players don't want to play that way. 

Sure, they have a lot of talent but they don't play the game the right way.  

They can fire Ruff but they will likely just hire another coach that is in lock-step with Adams, the creator of a poorly constructed and mentally weak team.  

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Benson and Doan may be playing higher in the lineup than they should, but they are not the problem on this team.  Doan is performing on any line.   Benson seems to have cooled off after a good start.  His playing on the first line and having 0 goals at this point in the season is a problem.  Benson does not have an NHL shot.  Hate to say it, he is a good player, but the fact that he is one of the teams better options to play on the first line is a problem.  

I look at teams like Utah and the Ducks.  Even Montreal and Philly.   Why are they better?  

Is there really much difference in the talent on the rosters of these teams?   I think not. 

The Sabres just give up too many goals and it is not all on the goalies.   The team makes way too many mistakes in their own end.  

I think the Utah coach is getting all there is out of his young and improving roster.  Joel Quenneville is getting everything out of the surprising Ducks roster.  Martin St Louis is getting everything out of a middling Habs roster.  

Lindy Ruff is not pushing the right buttons.  He seems just as defeated as the players.   You can tell by the Sabre Power Play that this coaching staff is not good enough.  

But the big problem is goals against. Like the TNT guys said, and Biz has been very negative about this team,  the Sabre take plays off and they take short cuts, and they get burned by it over and over again. 

The TNT cast pointed put that none of the defense other than Dahlin will even hit the other team.  No forwards have any fear playing deep in the Sabres zone.   Lundqvist was trying to be nice but said it clearly - they can't figure out how to defend because its hard and too many of their players don't want to play that way. 

Sure, they have a lot of talent but they don't play the game the right way.  

They can fire Ruff but they will likely just hire another coach that is in lock-step with Adams, the creator of a poorly constructed and mentally weak team.  

Zach Benson is 3rd on the Sabres in assists. He's so defensively sound that he is the literal best player on the team in terms of shot suppression metrics. 

In fact the only bad play I can even remember him making in his 14 games is the pass into Tage's tush. 

[Pimlach]

36 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Zach Benson is 3rd on the Sabres in assists. He's so defensively sound that he is the literal best player on the team in terms of shot suppression metrics. 

In fact the only bad play I can even remember him making in his 14 games is the pass into Tage's tush. 

There is a lot to like about Benson's game.  I was trying to say that Doan and Benson are not problems, but they are getting opportunities on the top 6 because the other players on this roster are not consistently good enough.  I do think that Benson must improve his shot. A faster release and  more speed on the shot - both can be improved with practice.  

The issues I have is this teams are: this GM/FO has expired, the coaching staff is not good enough, the goaltending, the inconsistent play from the top 6 forwards, and the leadership from the Core players.   

That is a long list.    They need to be fixed in the order listed.  

 

[LGR4GM]

13 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

There is a lot to like about Benson's game.  I was trying to say that Doan and Benson are not problems, but they are getting opportunities on the top 6 because the other players on this roster are not consistently good enough.  I do think that Benson must improve his shot. A faster release and  more speed on the shot - both can be improved with practice.  

The issues I have is this teams are: this GM/FO has expired, the coaching staff is not good enough, the goaltending, the inconsistent play from the top 6 forwards, and the leadership from the Core players.   

That is a long list.    They need to be fixed in the order listed.  

 

No they aren't. They are getting time in the top 6 because they are good enough, not because some other mythical player is not. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, BlowLeafsBlow123 said:

I agree that Benson is not fully developed. I'm also confident he'll get there...needs to work on his shooting ala Reinhart, but he'll never be a big time goal scorer, more a playmaker of course.

Doan however has been very productive and a play driver every game he's been in our top 6. Lindy started him lower in the lineup and as soon as he was moved up he's been consistently productive. Again, he should NOT be the most skilled player on his line but he is a creative player in his own right and makes the smart possession-keeping play 9 times out of 10. When you compare that to guys like Tage and Tuch who are lower IQ/hockey sense guys, it's much needed. That was the problem with Peterka in this lineup, he was another who seemed to lack hockey sense. You can only have so many of those guys clogging up your top 6. Personally, I think we still have one too many. One or Tage or Tuch will need to go and be replaced by a smarter skilled guy to get over the hump. That's an entirely different conversation however.

I think most of this is true. However I would say they need to swap out some of their young guys for a veteran top 6 winger. Tuch is a situation that is obviously unfortunate if it can't be resolved but it's not a wanted one. It would set them back if he's moved for prospects. 

Benson right now should be third line imo but I am also confident eventually he plays higher and effectively but it's too much too soon and he's not there and it does cost us. 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Benson and Doan may be playing higher in the lineup than they should, but they are not the problem on this team.  Doan is performing on any line.   Benson seems to have cooled off after a good start.  His playing on the first line and having 0 goals at this point in the season is a problem.  Benson does not have an NHL shot.  Hate to say it, he is a good player, but the fact that he is one of the teams better options to play on the first line is a problem.  

I look at teams like Utah and the Ducks.  Even Montreal and Philly.   Why are they better?  

Is there really much difference in the talent on the rosters of these teams?   I think not. 

The Sabres just give up too many goals and it is not all on the goalies.   The team makes way too many mistakes in their own end.  

I think the Utah coach is getting all there is out of his young and improving roster.  Joel Quenneville is getting everything out of the surprising Ducks roster.  Martin St Louis is getting everything out of a middling Habs roster.  

Lindy Ruff is not pushing the right buttons.  He seems just as defeated as the players.   You can tell by the Sabre Power Play that this coaching staff is not good enough.  

But the big problem is goals against. Like the TNT guys said, and Biz has been very negative about this team,  the Sabre take plays off and they take short cuts, and they get burned by it over and over again. 

The TNT cast pointed put that none of the defense other than Dahlin will even hit the other team.  No forwards have any fear playing deep in the Sabres zone.   Lundqvist was trying to be nice but said it clearly - they can't figure out how to defend because its hard and too many of their players don't want to play that way. 

Sure, they have a lot of talent but they don't play the game the right way.  

They can fire Ruff but they will likely just hire another coach that is in lock-step with Adams, the creator of a poorly constructed and mentally weak team.  

Nothing in here is incorrect but the solutions are complicated and that's an off season discussion really. A long one. Some guys don't play good D. Some are inconsistent. Some lack effort. Some just don't want to play that way. So ultimately for me it's about roster construction and lack of leadership. Habs for example have a better constructed roster and maybe the Ducks now do as well. The scoring talent has never been an issue here imo.