How would you retool this team this summer?

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I wouldn't say Benson or Kulich are vying for the top 9. They're all but guaranteed to play there.

The real issue is will they be vying for the top 6. I like Benson a lot. However, if he is on the top line again, then I'm worried. 

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I wouldn't say Benson or Kulich are vying for the top 9. They're all but guaranteed to play there.

That’s certainly fair, and also what I expect.

That said if the Sabres wanted to operate in old-school vets-first way, they could, by icing the following top 9:

• Tuch Norris Thompson
• Quinn McLeod Peterka
• Zucker Krebs Greenway

Every one of those players save Zucker is in their 23-30 prime.

So if Kulich and/or Benson were to break into the top 9, it wouldn’t be because of “no blocking” it would be because of the poor play or injuries of a “veteran”. Quinn, Peterka and Krebs aren’t kids any more, physically, or by experience.

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

That’s certainly fair, and also what I expect.

That said if the Sabres wanted to operate in old-school vets-first way, they could, by icing the following top 9:

• Tuch Norris Thompson
• Quinn McLeod Peterka
• Zucker Krebs Greenway

Every one of those players save Zucker is in their 23-30 prime.

So if Kulich and/or Benson were to break into the top 9, it wouldn’t be because of “no blocking” it would be because of the poor play or injuries of a “veteran”. Quinn, Peterka and Krebs aren’t kids any more, physically, or by experience.

Agree with most of this, but would still say that Quinn is "a kid" because of all the time he lost 2 seasons ago due to injury.  He's barely got more than 2 full seasons in.

And am hoping that a lot of his issues last year were from the leg injuries being the sort of things that realistically take 1-1/2 years to recover from.  (Yes, am ignoring that he looked reasonably good most of the time he played that year after coming back from each injury and significantly worse last year.)

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Agree with most of this, but would still say that Quinn is "a kid" because of all the time he lost 2 seasons ago due to injury.  He's barely got more than 2 full seasons in.

And am hoping that a lot of his issues last year were from the leg injuries being the sort of things that realistically take 1-1/2 years to recover from.  (Yes, am ignoring that he looked reasonably good most of the time he played that year after coming back from each injury and significantly worse last year.)

There’s a large part of me finding it really hard to reconcile the Jack Quinn I watched tear up Rochester 4 years ago, and the Jack Quinn I watched play 27 games coming off an injury 2 years ago with the Jack Quinn I watched last year.

They were like 2 completely different players.

One part of my brain says: the easiest way to improve the forward ranks is by replacing Quinn with an abrasive defensively responsible player who can pop 20 goals.

Another part says sell low on this guy right now and you might seriously regret it for a long time. How can you be that wrong about a player?

Which I guess makes me Kevyn Adams 😬😫

[JohnC]

For those of you who are more familiar with Norris than I am, how good is he? Can he be a legitimate #1 C or is he more suited to be a #2 C? As a center is he more inclined to shoot or pass? If he works out as either a 1 or 2 C it would be such a positive compared to when Cozens struggled along as a 2C. 

From the previous post where @dudacek posted some proposed lines, you can see the roster building out with some reserve when Benson and Kulich are considered to be in the roster mix. 

As has been frequently stated, the defense and goaltending need to be addressed this offseason. If that can happen (big challenge) then this should be a playoff team, in my opinion.  

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There’s a large part of me finding it really hard to reconcile the Jack Quinn I watched tear up Rochester 4 years ago, and the Jack Quinn I watched play 27 games coming off an injury 2 years ago with the Jack Quinn I watched last year.

They were like 2 completely different players.

One part of my brain says: the easiest way to improve the forward ranks is by replacing Quinn with an abrasive defensively responsible player who can pop 20 goals.

Another part says sell low on this guy right now and you might seriously regret it for a long time. How can you be that wrong about a player?

Which I guess makes me Kevyn Adams 😬😫

It would be a big mistake to trade away Quinn for even a more rugged replacement. His offensive skills that revolve around his shooting are too good to deal off. It would be so exasperating to see him scoring a lot of goals for another team. Grinders are more easily acquired than skilled offensive players like him. If the GM is going to error on this particular player, it should done after more patience is exhibited. 

[PerreaultForever]

34 minutes ago, JohnC said:

It would be a big mistake to trade away Quinn for even a more rugged replacement. His offensive skills that revolve around his shooting are too good to deal off. It would be so exasperating to see him scoring a lot of goals for another team. Grinders are more easily acquired than skilled offensive players like him. If the GM is going to error on this particular player, it should done after more patience is exhibited. 

Disagree. We have snipers and goal scorers. We need rugged and D. Even if you think Quinn can be very good you are allowed to trade quality for different quality. The make up of the whole roster is what matters. 

Dream scenario that completely changes the team:

You sign Bennett and Marchand in free agency. 

You then trade Norris for a top 4 D man.

You trade Byram for a goalie. 

You offer sheet and get Cuylle. 

You trade Quinn for another D man. (Maybe Toronto loses Marner and they give up Carlo as an example)

You pick up a lower level grit guy or two in free agency or via lower level trades. Gadjovich Greer types. Bottom end depth guys who can scrap. 

You make the playoffs and maybe more. Nothing here impossible. None of it actually going to happen with this GM and owner.

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

That’s certainly fair, and also what I expect.

That said if the Sabres wanted to operate in old-school vets-first way, they could, by icing the following top 9:

• Tuch Norris Thompson
• Quinn McLeod Peterka
• Zucker Krebs Greenway

Every one of those players save Zucker is in their 23-30 prime.

So if Kulich and/or Benson were to break into the top 9, it wouldn’t be because of “no blocking” it would be because of the poor play or injuries of a “veteran”. Quinn, Peterka and Krebs aren’t kids any more, physically, or by experience.

Zero chance that line up would get in the playoffs. Zero. 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Zero chance that line up would get in the playoffs. Zero. 

Shocking that you would say that. 😉

 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Disagree. We have snipers and goal scorers. We need rugged and D. Even if you think Quinn can be very good you are allowed to trade quality for different quality. The make up of the whole roster is what matters. 

Dream scenario that completely changes the team:

You sign Bennett and Marchand in free agency. 

You then trade Norris for a top 4 D man.

You trade Byram for a goalie. 

You offer sheet and get Cuylle. 

You trade Quinn for another D man. (Maybe Toronto loses Marner and they give up Carlo as an example)

You pick up a lower level grit guy or two in free agency or via lower level trades. Gadjovich Greer types. Bottom end depth guys who can scrap. 

You make the playoffs and maybe more. Nothing here impossible. None of it actually going to happen with this GM and owner.

 No. I’m not taking the fanciful route you are on. I strongly believe that Quinn shouldn’t be moved right now. Don’t misinterpret what I’m advocating for. There is no question that moves have to be made to reconfigure this roster. But it has to be done thoughtfully and judiciously, and not out of frustration. 
 

The most impactful move the GM has to make is add a credible goalie. If that is not done then everything else done will be undercut.

Edited 5 hours ago by JohnC

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Disagree. We have snipers and goal scorers. We need rugged and D. Even if you think Quinn can be very good you are allowed to trade quality for different quality. The make up of the whole roster is what matters. 

Dream scenario that completely changes the team:

You sign Bennett and Marchand in free agency. 

You then trade Norris for a top 4 D man.

You trade Byram for a goalie. 

You offer sheet and get Cuylle. 

You trade Quinn for another D man. (Maybe Toronto loses Marner and they give up Carlo as an example)

You pick up a lower level grit guy or two in free agency or via lower level trades. Gadjovich Greer types. Bottom end depth guys who can scrap. 

You make the playoffs and maybe more. Nothing here impossible. None of it actually going to happen with this GM and owner.

Even if the money somehow magically worked that wouldn’t exactly be a good roster. You’d be able to grind with the best of em but you’d lack scoring depth and very easily could fall into the NY Isles mold.

I love Bennett and wanted him both in CGY and in Florida but I wouldn’t dare signing him this offseason. He’s going to capture a haul due to the limited UFA pool and likely be a train wreck contract within 3 years based on his play style. 
 

Id take Marchand however and put him opposite Benson. Those two would be chaos.

You don’t trade roster skaters for goalies 

Cuylle isn’t worth our unprotected 2026 1st. He has 1 20 goal season and I need a 1st to win McKenna if need be. Get me another unprotected 1st from a Byram/Peterka offersheet and I’d trade a conditional 2026 1st (lower of the two) for him however.

Edited 5 hours ago by thewookie1

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Shocking that you would say that. 😉

 

You seriously think it could? Seriously?

[PerreaultForever]

44 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 No. I’m not taking the fanciful route you are on. I strongly believe that Quinn shouldn’t be moved right now. Don’t misinterpret what I’m advocating for. There is no question that moves have to be made to reconfigure this roster. But it has to be done thoughtfully and judiciously, and not out of frustration. 
 

The most impactful move the GM has to make is add a credible goalie. If that is not done then everything else done will be undercut.

Agree on the goalie but while it was a pipe dream it wasn't "fanciful". It's a possible (with the assumption you could get the free agents to sign) way to reshape the team dynamic and fill the holes on the roster. We don't just need a player or two, we need better leadership, compete, and team dynamic. We need guys who drag other guys into the fight and as they put it on Shoresy we need a team that "hates to lose"

[PerreaultForever]

36 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Even if the money somehow magically worked that wouldn’t exactly be a good roster. You’d be able to grind with the best of em but you’d lack scoring depth and very easily could fall into the NY Isles mold.

I love Bennett and wanted him both in CGY and in Florida but I wouldn’t dare signing him this offseason. He’s going to capture a haul due to the limited UFA pool and likely be a train wreck contract within 3 years based on his play style. 
 

Id take Marchand however and put him opposite Benson. Those two would be chaos.

You don’t trade roster skaters for goalies 

Cuylle isn’t worth our unprotected 2026 1st. He has 1 20 goal season and I need a 1st to win McKenna if need be. Get me another unprotected 1st from a Byram/Peterka offersheet and I’d trade a conditional 2026 1st (lower of the two) for him however.

If you are even considering unprotected firsts to maybe get McKenna you've already lost and you might as well gut the roster again and tank fully. It's a loser mentality. I want a team that will bump a Marnerless Toronto out of the standings and make a late 2026 1st irrelevant.

We have scorers. We have a top line. Peterka Thompson Tuch is a top line. Peterka Kulich Thompson maybe even. That's a scoring line either way. Marchand Bennett Cuylle would be a killer 2nd line right up there with what Florida does now. Able to both shut down another team's high end line and score. Nasty and hard to play against. Then you've got a 3rd line with Benson and McLeod and Zucker or Kulich or Tuch or whoever wins the job that is good enough to compete at that level. Greenway becomes 4th line dominant. We would score more top to bottom but most of all also stop some scoring against. 

The D would have solid pairs that let Power and Dahlin drive the play and Clifton/Samuelsson would be reduced minutes bottom pairing at best. Add a decent NHL goalie.

It's a fantasy, but it would be a very good hockey team. 

[LGR4GM]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

That’s certainly fair, and also what I expect.

That said if the Sabres wanted to operate in old-school vets-first way, they could, by icing the following top 9:

• Tuch Norris Thompson
• Quinn McLeod Peterka
• Zucker Krebs Greenway

Every one of those players save Zucker is in their 23-30 prime.

So if Kulich and/or Benson were to break into the top 9, it wouldn’t be because of “no blocking” it would be because of the poor play or injuries of a “veteran”. Quinn, Peterka and Krebs aren’t kids any more, physically, or by experience.

Zach Benson is better defensively than every single forward listed here. If the Sabres run that, Lindy Ruff is officially an old washed up hack.

Edited 4 hours ago by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

For those of you who are more familiar with Norris than I am, how good is he? Can he be a legitimate #1 C or is he more suited to be a #2 C? As a center is he more inclined to shoot or pass? If he works out as either a 1 or 2 C it would be such a positive compared to when Cozens struggled along as a 2C.

Josh Norris is a good player, but that comes with 2 caveats:

1) Kevyn Adams was stretching things considerably when he said Norris can be a first-line centre.

2) @Thorny was not stretching things at all when he consistently points out that questions about Norris' ability have to be leavened with questions about his availability.

In 5 NHL seasons he has been health exactly once: his rookie year when he played all 56 games in the bubble.

Since then he has missed: 16, 74, 32 and 29 games — or about 46% of his potential starts. Prior to this year, a vast majority of those missed games were due to a chronically bad shoulder, something that did not trouble him this year and the Sabres doctors assure us should not trouble him again.

Technically, Norris is capable of centring a 1st line; he has high-end speed, a diligent approach to positioning, makes good and quick decisions with the puck, and has a deadly shot. 

But he is a 1st-line centre only in the sense that he can keep up with two high-end wingers, as opposed to drive a line in the manner we traditionally think of when we talk about 1C. You may not remember this as well as folks out here on the West Coast, but I think a good comparable is Brendan Morrison when he skated for the Canucks 20 years ago between Markus Naslund and Todd Bertuzzi.

And understand he is a finisher, not a playmaker. His career numbers put him at around 30 goals and 22 assists over 80 games.

I think your expectations would be best centred at a Derek Roy to Derek Plante level 2C, who can win face-offs and help both special teams.

Or maybe this: The Ottawa Senators most certainly watched Dylan Cozens play this year and decided they preferred Cozens to Norris.

[dudacek]

32 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You seriously think it could? Seriously?

I mean, other than Norris and Greenway instead of Cozens and Benson it's basically a proven 80-point team, right?

So with 72 games of Hasek-level goaltending, sure. 😄

 

16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Zach Benson is better defensively than every single forward listed here. If the Sabres run that, Lindy Ruff is officially an old washed up hack.

Wait, it's still not official?

[Thorny]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

Responding to the highlighted question, I would say the current roster balance is still problematic . A couple more rugged and defense-minded players need to be added to the blueline mix, and another Zucker-like (younger) player brought in. As @GASabresIUFAN has repeatedly pointed out, the goalie position needs to be addressed. If that doesn't happen, the positives will be neutralized.  This offseason shouldn't be about dramatically remaking the roster as it should be about making a few judicious moves that better balance the roster mix. Also, to state the obvious, a lot is going to be riding on the young players getting better. If the development in our young players doesn't rise to a sufficient level, this franchise will again be rowing a boat against a strong current i.e. not moving forward.

The summer should be about improving everywhere as much as possible. That’s a freebie when you’ve missed 14 years straight 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I mean, other than Norris and Greenway instead of Cozens and Benson it's basically a proven 80-point team, right?

So with 72 games of Hasek-level goaltending, sure. 😄

 

Wait, it's still not official?

lol, okay so you just need Hasek level goaltending. Funny man. 

More likely at best you get Hasek level right now at his current age. 

[JohnC]

39 minutes ago, Thorny said:

The summer should be about improving everywhere as much as possible. That’s a freebie when you’ve missed 14 years straight 

That's like asking someone if they like their mother and apple pie. Simple answer is yes. 

If you ask me, do I think that there is going to be dramatic change, my answer would be not likely. However, that doesn't mean that there can't be consequential changes if wisely done. I strongly believe that the most impactful move would be solidifying the goalie position. The next priority would be to rework the blueline, adding a couple of defensive players who better round out that imbalanced unit. 

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

That's like asking someone if they like their mother and apple pie. Simple answer is yes. 

If you ask me, do I think that there is going to be dramatic change, my answer would be not likely. However, that doesn't mean that there can't be consequential changes if wisely done. I strongly believe that the most impactful move would be solidifying the goalie position. The next priority would be to rework the blueline, adding a couple of defensive players who better round out that imbalanced unit. 

BPA 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Agree on the goalie but while it was a pipe dream it wasn't "fanciful". It's a possible (with the assumption you could get the free agents to sign) way to reshape the team dynamic and fill the holes on the roster. We don't just need a player or two, we need better leadership, compete, and team dynamic. We need guys who drag other guys into the fight and as they put it on Shoresy we need a team that "hates to lose"

It would take a creative and bold GM to accomplish your wish list. KA is our GM. He is cautious and not very imaginative with how he operates. What you are expecting is beyond his capacity. That's how I see it. 

[Broken Ankles]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

I hope everybody around here realizes that “youth” and “blocking” are no longer talking points with the Sabre forwards.

• Tage Thompson is turning 28 next season and will be entering his 7th NHL season
• Zucker 34 and 12
• Tuch 29 and 9
• Greenway 29 and 8
• Norris 26 and 6
• McLeod 26 and 5
• Krebs 25 and 5
• Peterka 24 and 4
• Quinn 24 and 4

These guys have been around long enough to know what the league is about.

Yes, there are 2 babies also vying to break into the top 9 in Kulich and Benson (and 2 vets in Malenstyn, 28, and Lafferty, 31) but putting them there is a choice, not an excuse.

This is group that should be considered largely in its prime. 

The questions should be are they good enough, and are they balanced enough?

“ Are they old enough?” is so 2022.

For the forwards, maybe.  But then again scoring isn’t the primary issue for this team is it?   If the Sabres sign Bow, the average age of the D would be under 25, and younger if Clifton (only Dman over 30) is in the press box and Lindy plays Bryson or Johnson in his place.   For context Carolina’s Blue line is 32.5.  Florida is just over 30.  
  Then at the goalie position, you could conceivably see a Levi /UPL tandem, again.  Probably not too many teams with a combo that has an average age of 24.5.

  Moving Power or Byrum, and Mattias for veteran D could help.  If Levi is going to be given a chance, we need a more reliable netminder to counterbalance his youth and inexperience.