Way too early opening night line-up

[Crusader1969]

Now that we are on to next year ( once again before the playoffs start), it's time to project the lineup for opening night 24/25

this is my best guess of what the lineup will look like, trying to be somewhat realist

Top 6 - pretty well write this in ink

JJP              Tage.         Tuch
Benson        Cozens    Quinn

Bottom 6

Greenway      Jenner   Savoie 
Girgs.           Kulich         Carrier

3rd line centre :

Option 1 - Jenner is going to be expensive but if anyone can pay the price it's the Sabres.   Krebs and a 1st round pick may entice the rebuilding bluejackets 

Option 2 Sean Monahan - a UFA who can play 2 way game and win faceoffs. 

4th Line 
UFA Carrier will bring the energy and physical play we all crave 

Will have to decide to play either ease Kulich in a 4th line role or keep him in Roch 1 more season   What I do know , the guy will be ready for whatever the Sabres ask 

if they prefer Kulich not playing on the 4th line, then they will dip once again in the UFA market for a guy like Colin Blackwell 

13th Skinner
14th  Robinson

Dahlin.     Byrum 
Power.    Samuelsson
Johnson    Clifton 

don't think we will see a top 4 RHD brought in   Just so few out there that fit the bill and the price of one will be too high

7 - UFA signing that many of us have never heard of 

UPL
Levi

Levi will take Amerks deep into the playoffs proving he is too good for the AHL   

Probably not enough change for a lot of you on the ice but I do predict a complete overhaul of the coaching staff 

Plus, Trading for Boone Jenner will be costly and use up a lot of their trade capital 

 

[CallawaySabres]

Tage, not even close to a number one center

Cozen’s not a number 2 center 

obviously they cannot push both of them down a line so find the best #2 center possible and trade any prospects to get cozens to 3rd line. Until then, nothing matters at all because they will never see the playoffs next year without making that happen.

[Thorny]

58 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Now that we are on to next year ( once again before the playoffs start), it's time to project the lineup for opening night 24/25

this is my best guess of what the lineup will look like, trying to be somewhat realist

Top 6 - pretty well write this in ink

JJP              Tage.         Tuch
Benson        Cozens    Quinn

Bottom 6

Greenway      Jenner   Savoie 
Girgs.           Kulich         Carrier

3rd line centre :

Option 1 - Jenner is going to be expensive but if anyone can pay the price it's the Sabres.   Krebs and a 1st round pick may entice the rebuilding bluejackets 

Option 2 Sean Monahan - a UFA who can play 2 way game and win faceoffs. 

4th Line 
UFA Carrier will bring the energy and physical play we all crave 

Will have to decide to play either ease Kulich in a 4th line role or keep him in Roch 1 more season   What I do know , the guy will be ready for whatever the Sabres ask 

if they prefer Kulich not playing on the 4th line, then they will dip once again in the UFA market for a guy like Colin Blackwell 

13th Skinner
14th  Robinson

Dahlin.     Byrum 
Power.    Samuelsson
Johnson    Clifton 

don't think we will see a top 4 RHD brought in   Just so few out there that fit the bill and the price of one will be too high

7 - UFA signing that many of us have never heard of 

UPL
Levi

Levi will take Amerks deep into the playoffs proving he is too good for the AHL   

Probably not enough change for a lot of you on the ice but I do predict a complete overhaul of the coaching staff 

Plus, Trading for Boone Jenner will be costly and use up a lot of their trade capital 

 

To be honest I’m not in too much of a rush to get anything down in ink when the consideration is a team that’s going to finish between 22nd and 24th place, with points in the mid 80s (As likely as I think it is we are indeed stuck with the top 6 we’ve got.) That second line could be really good, I think.

Your projected lineup is a little too ea sports nhl for my liking though re: plug and play more youth. 2 more rookies? The floor is just so low, there. And what’s the ceiling we can really expect? Benson has been great (for a rookie) and he’s going to notch what, 30 points? And those guys likely won’t even be Benson. The “for a rookie” thing is probably the most important bit. Especially because we are bumping, checks notes, our 3rd leading goal scorer out of the lineup to do it?

I understand his deal sucks but essentially moving Skinner out for a rookie Savoie is not in a realistic stratosphere for a team that absolutely needs to make the playoffs. That looks like we are literally running a development factory.

I like the idea of two vet adds like Jenner and Carrier.

Byram on top pair makes me pretty nervous and uncomfortable. It’s funny that they sort of trade for these players with a singular pigeonholed role in mind and get into trouble when they don’t fit it. Every farmer and their mom knew we needed a RIGHT SHOT D. Oh well, at least Byram still shows flashes and he’s young. On a second pair he could be dynamic in the future. 

I expect UPL/Levi but wouldn’t be what I would do, id look to bring in a more proven vet to backup. 

[Crusader1969]

17 minutes ago, Thorny said:

To be honest I’m not in too much of a rush to get anything down in ink when the consideration is a team that’s going to finish between 22nd and 24th place, with points in the mid 80s (As likely as I think it is we are indeed stuck with the top 6 we’ve got.) That second line could be really good, I think.

Your projected lineup is a little too ea sports nhl for my liking though re: plug and play more youth. 2 more rookies? The floor is just so low, there. And what’s the ceiling we can really expect? Benson has been great (for a rookie) and he’s going to notch what, 30 points? And those guys likely won’t even be Benson. The “for a rookie” thing is probably the most important bit. Especially because we are bumping, checks notes, our 3rd leading goal scorer out of the lineup to do it?

I understand his deal sucks but essentially moving Skinner out for a rookie Savoie is not in a realistic stratosphere for a team that absolutely needs to make the playoffs. That looks like we are literally running a development factory.

I like the idea of two vet adds like Jenner and Carrier.

Byram on top pair makes me pretty nervous and uncomfortable. It’s funny that they sort of trade for these players with a singular pigeonholed role in mind and get into trouble when they don’t fit it. Every farmer and their mom knew we needed a RIGHT SHOT D. Oh well, at least Byram still shows flashes and he’s young. On a second pair he could be dynamic in the future. 

I expect UPL/Levi but wouldn’t be what I would do, id look to bring in a more proven vet to backup. 

I'm sold on Savoie, think he is going to make a huge impact for them as soon as next year.  They have all these high end prospects, you gotta let them play at some point.  
If you look back at this season, the young forwards (JJP and Benson) have been their top forwards for much of the season.   It's the guys with more experience that have regressed.  
so I have no problem with adding more youth if it means less of guys like Skinner, Olofsson and KO 

plus as I mentioned before if you bring in Boone, you really are depleting a lot of your prospect pool 

as for Savioe for Skinner .... skinner is going to do next to nothing for you on a 3rd line.  Savoie is tenacious on the puck, he is fast and won't be allergic to back checking    Plus if there is one player in the league that represents regular season failure it's Jeff Skinner.  

Edited April 9 by Crusader1969

[Crusader1969]

24 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Tage, not even close to a number one center

Cozen’s not a number 2 center 

obviously they cannot push both of them down a line so find the best #2 center possible and trade any prospects to get cozens to 3rd line. Until then, nothing matters at all because they will never see the playoffs next year without making that happen.

If you believe that you may as well give up and not watch for the next 7 to 10 years.  

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I'm sold on Savoie, think he is going to make a huge impact for them as soon as next year.  They have all these high end prospects, you gotta let them play at some point.  
If you look back at this season, the young forwards (JJP and Benson) have been their top forwards for much of the season.   It's the guys with more experience that have regressed.  
so I have no problem with adding more youth if it means less of guys like Skinner, Olofsson and KO 

plus as I mentioned before if you bring in Boone, you really are depleting a lot of your prospect pool 

Haha we are just so philosophically different on this our takes are going to be very far apart. “They have all these prospects, have to let them play” is assuredly NOT the stance I have regarding this team. My stance would be more along the lines of “we have all of these prospects that CAN’T possibly all play, the precise benefit of that is to use some as currency.” That’s the true value.

Benson has gone through long, long stretches this season where he’s been invisible, never mind one of our best players. That he’s overall been one of our better forwards is a reflection of why we aren’t going to make the playoffs not a statement towards the fact we need to add another Benson level (at best) output for next season.

It also makes no sense to lump JJP and Benson together in this consideration as their development cycles are quite a ways apart.

You get that Skinner added *significantly* more value in the now towards winning than Benson did, right? Benson is just the sexier name because your position is still somewhat greased by the implications of these players’ future potential. RIGHT NOW Skinner is better than Benson and it is not close. 

Edited April 9 by Thorny

[DarthEbriate]

This was my run-it-back lineup from another thread and I'm sticking to it. There should be 2 UFAs (or acquisitions via trade) in the bottom 6. But... don't expect it.

Peterka - Thompson - Tuch
Benson - Cozens - Quinn
Skinner - UFA 3C (Savoie) - Greenway
Girgensons - Krebs - UFA 4W (Kulich)
(Rousek)

Power - Dahlin
Byram - Jokiharju
Samuelsson - Clifton
(Johnson)

Luukkonen
Levi

[Crusader1969]

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Haha we are just so philosophically different on this our takes are going to be very far apart. “They have all these prospects, have to let them play” is assuredly NOT the stance I have regarding this team. My stance would be more along the lines of “we have all of these prospects that CAN’T possibly all play, the precise benefit of that is to use some as currency.” That’s the true value.

Benson has gone through long, long stretches this season where he’s been invisible, never mind one of our best players. That he’s overall been one of our better forwards is a reflection of why we aren’t going to make the playoffs not a statement towards the fact we need to add another Benson level (at best) output for next season.

It also makes no sense to lump JJP and Benson together in this consideration as their development cycles are quite a ways apart.

You get that Skinner added *significantly* more value in the now towards winning than Benson did, right? Benson is just the sexier name because your position is still somewhat greased by the implications of these players’ future potential. RIGHT NOW Skinner is better than Benson and it is not close. 

I will completely disagree with you that Skinner is a better player than Benson right now

 I would argue that the Sabres themselves agree with me since Benson has been on line 2 and Skinner on Line 3.  
 

over the last 11 games of the season , which were quite important, skinner had points in just 1.  In 6 of them he was a minus player.   Small sample yes , but just highlites how little he contributes in a bottom 6 role 

Edited April 9 by Crusader1969

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

I will completely disagree with you that Skinner is a better player than Benson right now

 I would argue that the Sabres themselves agree since Benson has been on line 2 and Skinner on Line 3.  
 

over the last 11 games of the season , which were quite important, skinner had points in just 1.  In 6 of them he was a minus player.   Small sample yes , but just highlites how little he contributes in a bottom 6 role 

No need to include “but” after that small sample size declaration. It’s just, full stop, too small a sample size to tout as any sort of argument.

A lot of what Skinner does isn’t even counted: we have to think about his penalty differential, the value he provides in the calls he draws: last I checked he’s always near the top of the league in this category.

Anyways, Benson has 9 goals this season. He didn’t contribute to winning to the extent Skinner did. Benson was good, for a rookie. You can ask any advanced stats guy on twitter and they’ll tell you the same - ask Chad haha he’ll give a better answer than me and if I’m wrong I’ll happily admit it

Edited April 9 by Thorny

[inkman]

In a season of disappointment, this thread easily takes the top spot as the most disappointing.  If they run any lineup out there similar to this season, I may have to stop watching.  Who has faith that any of the players listed, who have objectively failed at providing the bare minimum of success, can provide it in the future?  
 

I don’t want to hear that a new coach fixes them.  You can’t change a tiger’s stripes.  These guys don’t have what it takes. They don’t compete, they don’t have mental toughness and they roll over at the first sign of adversity.  

[PerreaultForever]

55 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Tage, not even close to a number one center

Cozen’s not a number 2 center 

obviously they cannot push both of them down a line so find the best #2 center possible and trade any prospects to get cozens to 3rd line. Until then, nothing matters at all because they will never see the playoffs next year without making that happen.

Yup. Big hole at center now. Doubt they fix it but we shall see. 

The suggested line up at the top will not get us any closer to the playoffs. Might take us further away. 

I mean Girgs? Girgs? Re-signing Girgs? f me. 

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

No need to include “but” after that small sample size declaration. It’s just, full stop, too small a sample size to tout as any sort of argument.

A lot of what Skinner does isn’t even counted: we have to think about his penalty differential, the value he provides in the calls he draws: last I checked he’s always near the top of the league in this category.

Have you also counted all his giveaways and missed (or rather in his case the right word might be declined or avoided) checks?

[Crusader1969]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

In a season of disappointment, this thread easily takes the top spot as the most disappointing.  If they run any lineup out there similar to this season, I may have to stop watching.  Who has faith that any of the players listed, who have objectively failed at providing the bare minimum of success, can provide it in the future?  
 

I don’t want to hear that a new coach fixes them.  You can’t change a tiger’s stripes.  These guys don’t have what it takes. They don’t compete, they don’t have mental toughness and they roll over at the first sign of adversity.  

As I said to someone else.  You may as well close up shop now.  They aren't going to do major surgery to this team 

[bunomatic]

If KA rolls out essentially the same lineup with a couple new rookies thrown into the mix in place of a couple vets there is no hope in hell for this team to make the playoffs next season. They weren’t anywhere near good enough this season throw lipstick on a pig its still a pig. Sorry not sorry. Add to that a clueless coaching staff and well, its going to be a painful year.

[Thorny]

There’s a fair bit of relativity going into the perception of Benson. Like he’s 225th in scoring for forwards this year. Like yes obviously he’s a rookie, and sky is the limit. He looks super promising. But RIGHT NOW he’s not a top 6 player (at least not an average one) so penciling him to our top 6 next year while I get, like im not clamouring to add a bunch of other guys with 28 points who sit around 225th to my lineup for next year, which would be what we’d get from someone like Savoie at BEST. Like it would be an okay option (?) I suppose, but someone that could provide more, or provide the defensive value/grit other aspects we could use more of in the group without sacrificing that ~25-30 points that a rookie would probably provide, would be the preferred option in a year not focused on development and the long game 

[GoPuckYourself]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Now that we are on to next year ( once again before the playoffs start), it's time to project the lineup for opening night 24/25

this is my best guess of what the lineup will look like, trying to be somewhat realist

Top 6 - pretty well write this in ink

JJP              Tage.         Tuch
Benson        Cozens    Quinn

Bottom 6

Greenway      Jenner   Savoie 
Girgs.           Kulich         Carrier

3rd line centre :

Option 1 - Jenner is going to be expensive but if anyone can pay the price it's the Sabres.   Krebs and a 1st round pick may entice the rebuilding bluejackets 

Option 2 Sean Monahan - a UFA who can play 2 way game and win faceoffs. 

4th Line 
UFA Carrier will bring the energy and physical play we all crave 

Will have to decide to play either ease Kulich in a 4th line role or keep him in Roch 1 more season   What I do know , the guy will be ready for whatever the Sabres ask 

if they prefer Kulich not playing on the 4th line, then they will dip once again in the UFA market for a guy like Colin Blackwell 

13th Skinner
14th  Robinson

Dahlin.     Byrum 
Power.    Samuelsson
Johnson    Clifton 

don't think we will see a top 4 RHD brought in   Just so few out there that fit the bill and the price of one will be too high

7 - UFA signing that many of us have never heard of 

UPL
Levi

Levi will take Amerks deep into the playoffs proving he is too good for the AHL   

Probably not enough change for a lot of you on the ice but I do predict a complete overhaul of the coaching staff 

Plus, Trading for Boone Jenner will be costly and use up a lot of their trade capital 

 

I like your enthusiasm but I just don't see why Boone jenner who is the captain of the dumpster fire CBJ would want  to come to an even bigger dumpster fire in the Sabres? 

I also believe Ryan Johnson has surpassed Muel on the 2nd line imo. 

Levi backing up UPL is a mistake, it's time for Adams to put the big boy pants on and go get a 1-2 year stop gap goalie who can alternate with UPL but also win us some game why Levi works on his game in the AHL. 

I wouldn't mind adding Savoie, Kulich and Carrier although some here have said Kulich doesn't look ready yet. Have you been watching him? What's your take on him since I don't get to watch many Rochacha games.

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Have you also counted all his giveaways and missed (or rather in his case the right word might be declined or avoided) checks?

Have you counted all the times Benson fell over because he’s 16 years old and the opposing player merely took the puck? I’ve seen him get outmuscled a ton. The dude is not without faults 

I never harp on them because he’s a rookie and he’s been above expectations. That would be dumb. But if the comparison is a genuine nhl goal scorer in skinner we are getting out of hand. Skinner aids more in the pursuit of winning a game today than Benson 

Edited April 9 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No need to include “but” after that small sample size declaration. It’s just, full stop, too small a sample size to tout as any sort of argument.

A lot of what Skinner does isn’t even counted: we have to think about his penalty differential, the value he provides in the calls he draws: last I checked he’s always near the top of the league in this category.

Anyways, Benson has 9 goals this season. He didn’t contribute to winning to the extent Skinner did. Benson was good, for a rookie. You can ask any advanced stats guy on twitter and they’ll tell you the same - ask Chad haha he’ll give a better answer than me and if I’m wrong I’ll happily admit it

There is a 15 point difference between them , that's easily negated in Bensons 2nd year.  
PLUS he does so much more than Skinner does than you can't record on a speadsheet. 
Let me ask you this 

1) who has a better 2 way game and is willing to back check between the 2? 
2) who is more willing to battle along the board and in front of the net? 
3) who hasn't played 1000 games in the NHL and some how not played in 1 playoff gAme? 
 

Skinner plays the type of game that too many Sabres have played over the years 

he needs to be off the team or in the press box to start next year 

but that's just my opinion.   I always appreciate the back and forth dialogue with you.   Enjoy the night 

[Crusader1969]

1 minute ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I like your enthusiasm but I just don't see why Boone jenner who is the captain of the dumpster fire CBJ would want  to come to an even bigger dumpster fire in the Sabres? 

I also believe Ryan Johnson has surpassed Muel on the 2nd line imo. 

Levi backing up UPL is a mistake, it's time for Adams to put the big boy pants on and go get a 1-2 year stop gap goalie who can alternate with UPL but also win us some game why Levi works on his game in the AHL. 

I wouldn't mind adding Savoie, Kulich and Carrier although some here have said Kulich doesn't look ready yet. Have you been watching him? What's your take on him since I don't get to watch many Rochacha games.

I think Jenner has an 8 team no trade list , so you might be right.  Dare to dream though 

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

There is a 15 point difference between them , that's easily negated in Bensons 2nd year.  
PLUS he does so much more than Skinner does than you can't record on a speadsheet. 
Let me ask you this 

1) who has a better 2 way game and is willing to back check between the 2? 
2) who is more willing to battle along the board and in front of the net? 
3) who hasn't played 1000 games in the NHL and some how not played in 1 playoff gAme? 
 

Skinner plays the type of game that too many Sabres have played over the years 

he needs to be off the team or in the press box to start next year 

but that's just my opinion.   I always appreciate the back and forth dialogue with you.   Enjoy the night 

“Negated in bensons second year” 

You aren’t keeping up with the argument. The discussion was more Benson-like production, at best, from Savoie, not actual Benson-next-season as the conversation was Skinner benched for Savoie 

I don’t agree re: the intangibles. I see Skinner draw way more penalties and Benson take a few more. Point 3 is erroneous. Those teams aren’t missing because Skinner is on them. This argument should have died with Eichel, I don’t even think it should be humoured at this point. Skinner is better than the 12th forward on every team that has ever won the cup. To say he’s the reason his teams haven’t made the playoffs is a non-sensical argument 

Edited April 9 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

3 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

I like your enthusiasm but I just don't see why Boone jenner who is the captain of the dumpster fire CBJ would want  to come to an even bigger dumpster fire in the Sabres? 

I also believe Ryan Johnson has surpassed Muel on the 2nd line imo. 

Levi backing up UPL is a mistake, it's time for Adams to put the big boy pants on and go get a 1-2 year stop gap goalie who can alternate with UPL but also win us some game why Levi works on his game in the AHL. 

I wouldn't mind adding Savoie, Kulich and Carrier although some here have said Kulich doesn't look ready yet. Have you been watching him? What's your take on him since I don't get to watch many Rochacha games.

Let's see how Levi does in the playoffs.  If he dominates , there is no need for him to spend another year down there.  What vet could you bring in that would be better than Levi as a backup ?

Just now, Thorny said:

“Negated in bensons second year” 

You aren’t keeping up with the argument. The discussion was more Benson-like production, at best, from Savoie, not actual Benson-next-season as the conversation was Skinner benched for Savoie 

Again I would say, it's not all about points.   There is something to effort, willingness to battle. Skinner just isn't it. It's more of an indictment of skinner than anything else ... I don't think he should be on the roster any longer 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Let's see how Levi does in the playoffs.  If he dominates , there is no need for him to spend another year down there.  What vet could you bring in that would be better than Levi as a backup ?

Levi proving he’s too good for the AHL doesn’t prove NHL readiness just fyi

”no need” for him isn’t the same as the sabres needs, necessarily 

I understand no one believed it was possible Levi wouldn’t be Patrick Roy out the gate; and no one believes it’s possible there could be a vet out there who could he better than Levi as a backup next year. I do think it’s possible to acquire a competent vet backup, but I understand Adams has no intention of doing anything other than doubling down on Levi being ready again

So I do expect a UPL / Levi tandem to start 

Edited April 9 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Levi proving he’s too good for the AHL doesn’t prove NHL readiness just fyi

”no need” for him isn’t the same as the sabres needs, necessarily 

I understand no one believed it was possible Levi wouldn’t be Patrick Roy out the gate; and no one believes it’s possible there could be a vet out there who could he better than Levi as a backup next year. I do think it’s possible to acquire a competent vet backup, but I understand Adams has no intention of doing anything other than doubling down on Levi being ready again

 go through a list of every backup in the league,   How many can you say are undoubtedly better than Levi? Of those, would any be available ? I doubt there are many.   If it's about winning and Levi provides you a better chance vs guys you can bring in via trade / UFA - shouldn't you have Levi as the backup ? 

[triumph_communes]

Run it back. Just need new coaches 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

 go through a list of every backup in the league,   How many can you say are undoubtedly better than Levi? Of those, would any be available ? I doubt there are many.   If it's about winning and Levi provides you a better chance vs guys you can bring in via trade / UFA - shouldn't you have Levi as the backup ? 

“Undoubtedly better” is sort of the key phrase. Maybe not many? But reasonable doubt if that’s the barometer (me and dudacek were having this discussion the other day) goes both ways: can’t say Levi is definitely better than the lion’s share, either. He’s still very unproven. That’s why I have interest in bringing in a competent vet on a one year if it can be had, who, to your point, assuredly isn’t undoubtedly better than Levi but at least provides an obstacle to him seizing of the crease and a failsafe for our goaltending bet. Some strength through competition that doesn’t bleed over into a 3 headed goalie monster with a third guy better than Comrie.

Which, to my point, shouldn’t be hard to find. 

But, again, competition isn’t really the name of the game with Adams it’s not blocking. I don’t see why they’d provide a block to Levi seizing the backup role