Fewest wins after 41 games since...

[PASabreFan]

It's me, Negative Nancy. You know who I am, dammit! What was I thinking after asking a similar question at the 10-game mark? This. This is what I was thinking.

 

10 wins at midseason. Quite incredible.

 

To find fewer wins at this point in Sabres history, you have to go back to the first two seasons of the franchise, when Punch Imlach had Gil Perreault and 19 guys named Skip. The inaugural team won 9 of its first 41 games and the second edition won just 8. You wonder how many of the 7 and 10 ties, respectively, those teams had would have been turned into overtime/shootout wins.

 

2002-03, with the owner charged with fraud and the team bankrupt and for sale and the team missing payroll IIRC: 11 wins.

 

The first tank team: 11. The second: 14!

 

06/07, in its first 10 games: 10.

 

Meanwhile, the Sabres are seventh in the league in terms of their cap hit. (And the percentage of that cap hit that they spend on defense is well above the league average: only a handful of teams spend significantly more.)

 

Was this in any sense predictable? Is someone going to pay?

 

For me, the really interesting question is how Russ Brandon interjects himself into this and gets into Jason Botterill's business. If the second half plays out like the first, Russ knows that the gravy train of season ticket holders could finally be wrecked. What is there to sell now except hope, and you need some splashy trades to offer hope. Or a sacrifice.

 

Unless an organeyezational decision was made to screw the bottom line and fan sentiment and do whatever is right for the future of the team, and then maybe Botterill has the luxury of doing less than what the fans want, because it's right. You kind of root for that scenario, but it's surely La La Land, even with Terry's Sabres.

 

[PASabreFan]

For those doubt the hand of Brandon (is there anyone who does?), consider the statement that Rob Ray read at the beginning of the Minny game, presumably with a knife to the neck of his beloved puppy, Tie. It went on and on, even into game action. You know it was written for him, because it used real words and contained actual sentences, and he kept going until the words ran out — if it had been a genuine Ray comment, he would have stopped and let Dan, ya know, call the game. It was all about what a great job Phil has done and how the team was turning the corner in recent games.

 

Signed, Russ. That narrative is not going to hunt. The last two games have made a lie of it.

[darksabre]

I mean, we basically did an expansion draft to get Eichel, so I'm not surprised this lines up. The tank was a brutal reset and was made worse by a bunch of bad contracts signed to "accelerate" the recovery.

 

I don't know if we should have seen this coming.

[Sabre1974]

I mean, we basically did an expansion draft to get Eichel, so I'm not surprised this lines up. The tank was a brutal reset and was made worse by a bunch of bad contracts signed to "accelerate" the recovery.

 

I don't know if we should have seen this coming.

Probably, botts having to make things right after some bad decisions by the previous GM. Yeah things are not good at the moment and it will take time to make good but he must be given time.

[7+6=13]

Zzzzz.  

 

They don't have the players to run Phil's system -  I'm not sure exactly what that looks like because it's such a mess out there right now.  However, how his system is described by him and others, this team ain't doing that.

 

It's pretty simple, JBot wasn't brought in to build on top of a nucleus, he was brought in to rebuild.  There's no other explanation for the amount of times these lines have changed - they are seeing what they have, in multiple situations, so they know for sure what they want to do.

 

I really can't stand these immature rants.  Even if it's true Rob read a script - that's exactly what they should be doing, it's their job.  Only the true immature fan would expect the President of the team to reveal his true feelings of the coach and team publicly.  

[Marvelo]

I don't want to keep repeating it but I hate the Pegulas with a deep down passion. They have brought this franchise to its knees with their stupidity and continued rookie mistakes. When you have a franchise that's in deep doo-doo, you don't go hiring a first time GM AND Coach. Damn those stupid frackers!

 

(you've triggered me again PA)

Edited January 6, 2018 by Marvelo

[PASabreFan]

Zzzzz.  

 

They don't have the players to run Phil's system -  I'm not sure exactly what that looks like because it's such a mess out there right now.  However, how his system is described by him and others, this team ain't doing that.

 

It's pretty simple, JBot wasn't brought in to build on top of a nucleus, he was brought in to rebuild.  There's no other explanation for the amount of times these lines have changed - they are seeing what they have, in multiple situations, so they know for sure what they want to do.

 

I really can't stand these immature rants.  Even if it's true Rob read a script - that's exactly what they should be doing, it's their job.  Only the true immature fan would expect the President of the team to reveal his true feelings of the coach and team publicly.  

I don't think it's Rob's job to parrot the company line. It weakens him in my eyes. Hell, I trust in Sal's independence and integrity when he's talking about the Bills, and he wears a Bills polo shirt on the sideline in nice weather.

 

I don't expect Brandon to speak candidly, but I don't expect him to try and pull the wool over my eyes. Sabres fans are smarter than Bills fans, maybe he will learn a hard lesson here.

[Gramps]

I'm willing to give Botterill and Housley another year to put out the dumpster fire they inherited. 

[PASabreFan]

I don't want to keep repeating it but I hate the Pegulas with a deep down passion. They have brought this franchise to its knees with their stupidity and continued rookie mistakes. When you have a franchise that's in deep doo-doo, you don't go hiring a first time GM AND Coach. Damn them!

Terry can somewhat plausibly run away from the Murray hire, but he owns Botterill, that's for sure. But folks should remember that if they give Terry a pass for Murray, it's only because they believe Terry let Patty make the call... and Terry hired Patty, another first-timer in a prominent role. The former Sabre and Pittsburgh fetishes have to stop. Is there any doubt we're about to send Kane to the Pens for some more Sidney Crosby hangers-on?

Probably, botts having to make things right after some bad decisions by the previous GM. Yeah things are not good at the moment and it will take time to make good but he must be given time.

It's funny how we all loved the Murray moves. I absolutely loved them. And Kane is an awesome player. O'Reilly was very good for the longest time, before catching Sabreitis. Bogosian, blah. Lehner, blah, but Lehner still has his supporters who think he could be the guy going forward.

 

Murray was fired because he wasn't a Sunday morn kinda guy.

[Gramps]

Terry can somewhat plausibly run away from the Murray hire, but he owns Botterill, that's for sure. But folks should remember that if they give Terry a pass for Murray, it's only because they believe Terry let Patty make the call... and Terry hired Patty, another first-timer in a prominent role. The former Sabre and Pittsburgh fetishes have to stop. Is there any doubt we're about to send Kane to the Pens for some more Sidney Crosby hangers-on?

It's funny how we all loved the Murray moves. I absolutely loved them. And Kane is an awesome player. O'Reilly was very good for the longest time, before catching Sabreitis. Bogosian, blah. Lehner, blah, but Lehner still has his supporters who think he could be the guy going forward.

 

Murray was fired because he wasn't a Sunday morn kinda guy.

 

Sabreitis is a disease caused a lack of surrounding talent and a resultant lack of effort.

[7+6=13]

I don't think it's Rob's job to parrot the company line. It weakens him in my eyes. Hell, I trust in Sal's independence and integrity when he's talking about the Bills, and he wears a Bills polo shirt on the sideline in nice weather.

 

I don't expect Brandon to speak candidly, but I don't expect him to try and pull the wool over my eyes. Sabres fans are smarter than Bills fans, maybe he will learn a hard lesson here.

 

We fundamentally disagree that it's defined as "pulling wool" over your eyes - if your assumption is right that he (Russ) tried to inject some positivity.   Let's not pretend you know that to be the truth.

 

I'm playing along and saying that if that's true - it's quite alright and not something diabolical.  It's a first year coach and a first year GM with a group of players not performing.  We're (fans) trying our best to guess why that is.  I find it comical that you pretend to absolutely know why.

[Sabre1974]

Zzzzz.  

 

They don't have the players to run Phil's system -  I'm not sure exactly what that looks like because it's such a mess out there right now.  However, how his system is described by him and others, this team ain't doing that.

 

It's pretty simple, JBot wasn't brought in to build on top of a nucleus, he was brought in to rebuild.  There's no other explanation for the amount of times these lines have changed - they are seeing what they have, in multiple situations, so they know for sure what they want to do.

 

I really can't stand these immature rants.  Even if it's true Rob read a script - that's exactly what they should be doing, it's their job.  Only the true immature fan would expect the President of the team to reveal his true feelings of the coach and team publicly.  

And there you have it, summed up perfectly

[PASabreFan]

We fundamentally disagree that it's defined as "pulling wool" over your eyes - if your assumption is right that he (Russ) tried to inject some positivity.   Let's not pretend you know that to be the truth.

 

I'm playing along and saying that if that's true - it's quite alright and not something diabolical.  It's a first year coach and a first year GM with a group of players not performing.  We're (fans) trying our best to guess why that is.  I find it comical that you pretend to absolutely know why.

I think I know what Russ' job is. I don't think it's to publicly buck up Phil's spirit. It's to sell tickets.

 

Also — you are right. I don't know anything for a fact regarding what Rob said. But it pretty clearly was not Rob speaking off the top of his head. It's not Pulitzer-worthy to trace that back to the team president.

Edited January 6, 2018 by PAnnySabreFan

[7+6=13]

I think I know what Russ' job is. I don't think it's to publicly buck up Phil's spirit. It's to sell tickets.

 

Also — you are right. I don't know anything for a fact regarding what Rob said. But it pretty clearly was not Rob speaking off the top of his head. It's not Pulitzer-worthy to trace that back to the team president.

 

Oh I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you said the comments by Rob were to pull the wool over fans eyes.  Now it was to publicly buck up Housley's spirit?  Thinking Russ forced Rob to say - Housley is doing a good job lately - is definitely not Pulitzer worthy.  It's actually quite ridiculous.  

 

The team is bad - heck we're all looking for something positive at this point.    

[Sabres Fan in NS]

This season was entirely predictable.

 

When you gut the team and decide to go after very good talent in a draft this is what will happen.  The hope is that eventually the team will be rebuilt into a long-term cusp team and with even more luck and hard work win a cup, or two, along the way.

[7+6=13]

This season was entirely predictable.

 

When you gut the team and decide to go after very good talent in a draft this is what will happen.  The hope is that eventually the team will be rebuilt into a long-term cusp team and with even more luck and hard work win a cup, or two, along the way.

 

I don't know about this season being predictable but now that it's happening it makes sense.  I knew an unlikely amount of things had to come together but I thought we'd get more out of our known quantities.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

This team has to much talent to be this bad. We have 4 legit nhl defenders a decent goalie and 2 plus lines of forwards. There is no excuse anymore for the guys not getting the system. That excuse has sailed.

 

If that truly is the case, Jbot needs to send those guys packing tomorrow.

[7+6=13]

This team has to much talent to be this bad. We have 4 legit nhl defenders a decent goalie and 2 plus lines of forwards. There is no excuse anymore for the guys not getting the system. That excuse has sailed.

 

If that truly is the case, Jbot needs to send those guys packing tomorrow.

 

Do you think it's coaching style/system or more of a player complacency issue?

 

I agree that we shouldn't be THIS bad.

[Gramps]

This team has to much talent to be this bad. We have 4 legit nhl defenders a decent goalie and 2 plus lines of forwards. There is no excuse anymore for the guys not getting the system. That excuse has sailed.

 

If that truly is the case, Jbot needs to send those guys packing tomorrow.

 

For having 4 legit defenders, we sure spend a lot of time in our own zone. In a 5-on-5 situation, I was amazed last night at how easily WInnipeg was able to clear their own zone and start a rush. We seem to collapse inward and teams are able to cycle the puck with ease. There's also the issue of forwards not picking up men in our zone. Eichel is as guilty as anyone of not covering a man on the way to the net. 

 

And other than Eichel and Kane, what speed do we have ? 

[PASabreFan]

Do you think it's coaching style/system or more of a player complacency issue?

 

I agree that we shouldn't be THIS bad.

How are good, proud players supposed to react when they realize they're in an "evaluation year"? ROR cuts himself. Kane has been good, probably for very obvious reasons. Lehner's numbers have gotten better. Jack pouted, but seems to have turned his season around. Sam is just lost. Other guys probably don't care and enjoy the easy money.

Oh I must have misunderstood you.  I thought you said the comments by Rob were to pull the wool over fans eyes.  Now it was to publicly buck up Housley's spirit?  Thinking Russ forced Rob to say - Housley is doing a good job lately - is definitely not Pulitzer worthy.  It's actually quite ridiculous.  

 

The team is bad - heck we're all looking for something positive at this point.    

I wrote that I didN'T think it was for Housley's benefit.

 

Why is it ridiculous to think Brandon needs to get fans to buy into next season?

[Robviously]

I mean, we basically did an expansion draft to get Eichel, so I'm not surprised this lines up. The tank was a brutal reset and was made worse by a bunch of bad contracts signed to "accelerate" the recovery.

 

I don't know if we should have seen this coming.

The Tank and Tim Murray's tenure are basically two separate things in my mind.  We were already in full tank mode when Murray was hired and he had more than enough draft capital to build any team he wanted after 2014-2015.  

 

I don't buy into the notion that the Tank wrecked the team culture.  The Sabres team culture has been trash since 2007 so it's not like we something special to ruin.  And the team rebounded with 81 points in 2015-2016, so it's not like they never showed signs of life again after the 2015 season.  And almost no one is left from the 2014-2015 roster so our team is completely removed from whatever happened that year.

 

The problem is that Tim Murray was a disaster.  His moves didn't work.  We're a slow team full of guys that other teams weren't able to build with (plus plenty of awful contracts).  And hilariously, if he'd have just held onto all of the 1st and 2nd round picks we had for 2015, we'd be a better team.  A lot more vision and a little more patience would have made this all work.

 

Let's hope Botterill does a proper rebuild and doesn't start panicking and overpaying for other teams' castoffs or guys he wished he'd have drafted 7 years ago. 

[7+6=13]

How are good, proud players supposed to react when they realize they're in an "evaluation year"? ROR cuts himself. Kane has been good, probably for very obvious reasons. Lehner's numbers have gotten better. Jack pouted, but seems to have turned his season around. Sam is just lost. Other guys probably don't care and enjoy the easy money.

I wrote that I didN'T think it was for Housley's benefit.

 

Why is it ridiculous to think Brandon needs to get fans to buy into next season?

 

I don't think it's ridiculous, you do.  You call it pulling wool over fans eyes - I don't.  Suggesting he's doing it through a forced Rob Ray comment is.  

 

You said Russ is "about to learn a hard lesson here" - now you're saying you fully understand he needs to get fans onboard???  I can't keep up with your circular argument.  You seem like a good guy and I honestly have been reading your posts for years.  You know hockey far better than I do - but I think your trying hard to turn a rant into something that makes sense.

 

Serious question, you do think they're in an evaluation year?  I think they are too and I'm not sure that approach isn't a pretty bad mistake.  

Edited January 6, 2018 by 7+6=13

[DarthEbriate]

This season was entirely predictable.

 

When you gut the team and decide to go after very good talent in a draft this is what will happen.  The hope is that eventually the team will be rebuilt into a long-term cusp team and with even more luck and hard work win a cup, or two, along the way.

I am disappointed by our apparent lack of progress.

I didn't expect this. I expected a rough-ish start, then bonding with the new system, and then playing pretty well toward the end of the season as the players liked coming to the ice. Just think back to Bylsma's first season. At the end we had 81 points and were playing solid hockey for the final month. I was expecting something similar with better results because players like Jack, Sam, and Rasmus would improve from year-to-year early on.

 

TL;DR research:

Here are our top people in terms of games played in that 2015-16 season for 81 points:

Risto, Eichel, Moulson, Reino, Gio, Legwand, McCabe, Gorges, Foligno, Larsson, ROR, Girgs, D-Lo, Kane, Bogo, McGinn, Franson, Pysyk

 

And here's this year:

Kane, Eichel, Pommer, Reino, Scandella, McCabe, Larsson, ROR, Pouliot, Okposo, Nolan, Girgs, Risto, Beaulieu, Antipin, Falk, Gorges

 

It's a little different, but the core (young and should be improving) is the same. I think we'd all agree Nolan is an upgrade over Deslauriers as player, if not a checker. Scandella is better than Franson. Okposo is better than McGinn. Pommer and Moulson are in the same role and Pominville has been solid in it (at least back at the start of the season).

Was Gionta that much better than Pouliot? Do we miss Foligno that much? Or Legwand? Was salary throw-in Legwand worth 20-30 more points in the standings for his 4th line/PK/long-range short-handed fluke goal prowess? Two years later any of our bottom-six centers should be able to make up for his loss: Larsson, Josefson, Rodrigues, Girgensons...

 

So... coming down from the rant...  yes, this year is pathetic. And I didn't expect it. And Rodgers and all our cornerbacks got hurt, or we'd be playing this weekend or next. Disappointing sports season.

Edited January 6, 2018 by DarthBerusad

[Jacque Richard]

Will we see a large dwindling season ticket base as well.

This team has to much talent to be this bad. We have 4 legit nhl defenders a decent goalie and 2 plus lines of forwards. There is no excuse anymore for the guys not getting the system. That excuse has sailed.

If that truly is the case, Jbot needs to send those guys packing tomorrow.

They as a group look disinterested

[PASabreFan]

I don't think it's ridiculous, you do.  You call it pulling wool over fans eyes - I don't.  Suggesting he's doing it through a forced Rob Ray comment is.  

 

You said Russ is "about to learn a hard lesson here" - now you're saying you fully understand he needs to get fans onboard???  I can't keep up with your circular argument.  You seem like a good guy and I honestly have been reading your posts for years.  You know hockey far better than I do - but I think your trying hard to turn a rant into something that makes sense.

 

Serious question, you do think they're in an evaluation year?  I think they are too and I'm not sure that approach isn't a pretty bad mistake.  

I can't keep up with your argument either. Perils of Internet communication I guess.

 

I think it's pretty clearly an evaluation year. Botterill has said as much when talking about Kane, Lehner, Reinhart etc. Evaluating things while letting Housley putting his system in place despite not having the players to run it does make a measure of sense if you're not interested in winning now.

 

OTOH Botterill turned over half the roster and made moves that he must have thought would help the D. Back to the original point, there's just no way this team should be historically bad if Housley is a good coach.