2017 Stanley Cup Playoffs: Round 1

[qwksndmonster]

So why did you shout me down when I noted that Matthews' CF and CA were significantly better than Eichel's?

 

Hmmmmmmmmm???

Because that's kind of similar to comparing their +/-. They play for different teams. Toronto's possession numbers are leaps and bounds ahead of the Sabres.

 

You've seen the stats on build up play, zone entries, and playmaking. Those kinds of stats are designed to directly compare players on different teams.

[qwksndmonster]

Because it could easily be a function of team. Their stats relative to their own teammates are about the same. Looking at it from a different angle, is it harder to be a good possession player on a good possession team, or a good possession player on a bad team?

 

Edit: FWIW, I think Matthews is notably better than Eichel is without the puck on his stick, both offensively and defensively, which contributes to his better Corsi and (barely) better relative Corsi. If true, this could mean Matthews is closer to his ceiling than Jack, regardless of the fact that Eichel has been in the league a year longer.

Pi hacked True's account and is editing his posts.

[Thorny]

Because it could easily be a function of team. Their stats relative to their own teammates are about the same. Looking at it from a different angle, is it harder to be a good possession player on a good possession team, or a good possession player on a bad team?

Edit: FWIW, I think Matthews is notably better than Eichel is without the puck on his stick, both offensively and defensively, which contributes to his better Corsi and (barely) better relative Corsi. If true, this could mean Matthews is closer to his ceiling than Jack, regardless of the fact that Eichel has been in the league a year longer.

Your edit certainly seems to hold weight, particularly when combined with the eye test. Look, Matthews is and will be a great player. But he honestly looks far more adjusted to the pro game than Eichel already, and Eichel's potential looks sky-high. Eichel has flashes of generational (!) brilliance on the ice that I haven't seen from Matthews.

[nfreeman]

Because it could easily be a function of team. Their stats relative to their own teammates are about the same. Looking at it from a different angle, is it harder to be a good possession player on a good possession team, or a good possession player on a bad team?

 

Edit: FWIW, I think Matthews is notably better than Eichel is without the puck on his stick, both offensively and defensively, which contributes to his better Corsi and (barely) better relative Corsi. If true, this could mean Matthews is closer to his ceiling than Jack, regardless of the fact that Eichel has been in the league a year longer.

 

I think I get your meaning here, but I'll also point out that I think Matthews is a better finisher (while Jack is probably a better playmaker) -- so in that sense Matthews is pretty GD strong with the puck on his stick too.

 

The goal that Matthews scored in Game 6 vs the Caps, despite arising from a lucky bounce, was an amazing finish.  He pounced on the lucky bounce, reeled in a bouncing puck, drew it back to create a shooting angle and flicked it into the very top corner.  Freaking Bossy-esque.

 

Because that's kind of similar to comparing their +/-. They play for different teams. Toronto's possession numbers are leaps and bounds ahead of the Sabres.

 

You've seen the stats on build up play, zone entries, and playmaking. Those kinds of stats are designed to directly compare players on different teams.

 

I think what you're both saying here is that CF and CA are more team stats than individual stats.  There certainly seems to be a reasonable basis for this -- but isn't CF and CA what we are referring to when we say that player X "drives possession?"

 

Also -- qwk -- I assume you are referring to assists when you reference playmaking -- is that right?  Also, what is "build up play?"

 

 

Your edit certainly seems to hold weight, particularly when combined with the eye test. Look, Matthews is and will be a great player. But he honestly looks far more adjusted to the pro game than Eichel already, and Eichel's potential looks sky-high. Eichel has flashes of generational (!) brilliance on the ice that I haven't seen from Matthews.

 

I think they are both potentially generational, but in different ways.  Eichel is a playmaker who can and will score a lot, while Matthews is a scorer who can and will set up others.

[Eleven]

I think I get your meaning here, but I'll also point out that I think Matthews is a better finisher (while Jack is probably a better playmaker) -- so in that sense Matthews is pretty GD strong with the puck on his stick too.

 

The goal that Matthews scored in Game 6 vs the Caps, despite arising from a lucky bounce, was an amazing finish.  He pounced on the lucky bounce, reeled in a bouncing puck, drew it back to create a shooting angle and flicked it into the very top corner.  Freaking Bossy-esque.

 

 

I think what you're both saying here is that CF and CA are more team stats than individual stats.  There certainly seems to be a reasonable basis for this -- but isn't CF and CA what we are referring to when we say that player X "drives possession?"

 

Also -- qwk -- I assume you are referring to assists when you reference playmaking -- is that right?  Also, what is "build up play?"

 

 

 

I think they are both potentially generational, but in different ways.  Eichel is a playmaker who can and will score a lot, while Matthews is a scorer who can and will set up others.

 

Based on this, I'm starting an informal poll.

[pi2000]

Because it could easily be a function of team. Their stats relative to their own teammates are about the same. Looking at it from a different angle, is it harder to be a good possession player on a good possession team, or a good possession player on a bad team?

 

Edit: FWIW, I think Matthews is notably better than Eichel is without the puck on his stick, both offensively and defensively, which contributes to his better Corsi and (barely) better relative Corsi. If true, this could mean Matthews is closer to his ceiling than Jack, regardless of the fact that Eichel has been in the league a year longer.

 

[Tondas]

Sort of off topic.  Anyone noticing ANY difference in the size of the goalies after the NHL clamped down on the size of their pads?  I lean toward being a purest, but looking at a Ken Dryden from the 70's to today's Michelin Men, the only way to equate the past to today is to widen the net.  No way the union will go for less padding so I've shifted to bigger nets.  The beauty of a Rick Martin slapshot scoring from 50 feet out needs to return.  I say 7 feet by 4 feet for starters.

[TrueBlueGED]

I think I get your meaning here, but I'll also point out that I think Matthews is a better finisher (while Jack is probably a better playmaker) -- so in that sense Matthews is pretty GD strong with the puck on his stick too.

 

The goal that Matthews scored in Game 6 vs the Caps, despite arising from a lucky bounce, was an amazing finish.  He pounced on the lucky bounce, reeled in a bouncing puck, drew it back to create a shooting angle and flicked it into the very top corner.  Freaking Bossy-esque.

 

That was, indeed, an incredible display of hands. I would not, however, include that in what I'm talking about when I say "with the puck on his stick." What I'm referring to with that language is when a player is handling the puck and dictating play. You'll almost never see Jack score that kind of goal because he's almost never in position to do so, as players who carry the puck so frequently don't get to that spot too often. They're just incredibly different players.