OT: The Theology Thread

[Drunkard]

Evangelical churches are often built on the personality of a preacher, as opposed to older more enduring denominations with centuries (eg Lutherans) or millennia (Catholics) of theological development. It's not surprising to me that you find their positions inconsistent.

I understand they can differ from parrish to parrish (not sure if that's the right word or not) but all the Evangelical ones seem to favor the old testament rules over the new testament rules. Eye for an eye over turning the other cheek, gay marriage is an abomination instead of love thy neighbor, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime over feeding the poor let alone washing their feet or any of the stuff Jesus has done and/or said about helping the poor. They all seem pretty united on these principles despite claiming to be Christ like regardless of who their preacher/pastor is or in which county or state they live in.

[smj]

We believe that the Qur'an is the unaltered word of God, as in it God said that He would safe guard it form the adjustments (for lack of a better term) made by men to the Christian and Jewish revelations.

 

In the Qur'an God states clearly that He did not have Jesus die on the cross, but He made it appear so.

Just to clarify the distinction and challenge this claim (as respectfully as possible) I believe a passage like Qur'an 4:157-158 explains this as it says...That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" but they killed him not, nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not - nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 

 

In other words, the Qur'an teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross but Jesus was taken up to heaven around the time of his arrest and someone like Judas, or one of the other disciples, took his place and was transformed to look just like Jesus.  There are several problems with this. 

 

First, the writer refers to Jews who rejected and claimed to have crucified Christ Jesus.  This is a major error because they would never use the term Christ.  Christ was not part of Jesus' name but means Messiah in Greek.  The Jews would have never called Him Messiah.  If the Jews had recognized Jesus as their Messiah they never would have crucified Him.

 

Second, the Jews never would have used the term, "Messenger of Allah" because Allah does not have the same meaning as Yahweh which is the God of the Bible.  Furthermore the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messenger of Allah - they crucified Jesus because they believed He was not Yahweh's messenger. 

 

Finally, this presents a huge theological problem.  It shows Allah as a deceiver who tricked people into thinking they had crucified Jesus.  If Allah is a deceiver how can the Qur'an be trusted as being true?  Why would Allah want people to think Jesus died and was resurrected?

 

Additionally, this denies that Jesus died by crucifixion but this is one of the minimal facts about His life that is accepted by the vast majority of scholars and also documented by non-Christian historians well before the Qur'an was written in the 7th century AD. 

 

If you are interested in the topic please read In Defense of Easter by Tim Chaffey. 

Edited August 19, 2015 by smj

[Sabres Fan in NS]

smj,

 

I appreciate your input, but your interpretation of that ayat is not the commonly accepted interpretation.

 

As for the rest of your post I accept that we have different beliefs, but it's all good.

 

Allah knows best and he will judge us all.

[MattPie]

Just to clarify the distinction and challenge this claim (as respectfully as possible) I believe a passage like Qur'an 4:157-158 explains this as it says...That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" but they killed him not, nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not - nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. 

 

In other words, the Qur'an teaches that Jesus did not die on the cross but Jesus was taken up to heaven around the time of his arrest and someone like Judas, or one of the other disciples, took his place and was transformed to look just like Jesus.  There are several problems with this. 

 

First, the writer refers to Jews who rejected and claimed to have crucified Christ Jesus.  This is a major error because they would never use the term Christ.  Christ was not part of Jesus' name but means Messiah in Greek.  The Jews would have never called Him Messiah.  If the Jews had recognized Jesus as their Messiah they never would have crucified Him.

 

Second, the Jews never would have used the term, "Messenger of Allah" because Allah does not have the same meaning as Yahweh which is the God of the Bible.  Furthermore the Jews did not believe Jesus was the Messenger of Allah - they crucified Jesus because they believed He was not Yahweh's messenger. 

 

Finally, this presents a huge theological problem.  It shows Allah as a deceiver who tricked people into thinking they had crucified Jesus.  If Allah is a deceiver how can the Qur'an be trusted as being true?  Why would Allah want people to think Jesus died and was resurrected?

 

Additionally, this denies that Jesus died by crucifixion but this is one of the minimal facts about His life that is accepted by the vast majority of scholars and also documented by non-Christian historians well before the Qur'an was written in the 7th century AD. 

 

If you are interested in the topic please read In Defense of Easter by Tim Chaffey. 

 

I have to wonder if the "issues" with the quote come down to translation artifacts. Are there different English translations of the Qur'an, and do those passages agree here? Also, it's worth noting that we're reading history from the perspective of the historian. A Muslim historian is going to likely use slightly different phrases and titles for people than a non-secular person.

 

The "trickster" point is an interesting one, though, even if I don't really believe either interpretation. IMHO Jesus was a man with some radical (and generally good) ideas about how we should treat each other. He died on the cross because he upset the power structures too much (both Roman and religious). That doesn't diminish the message; a good message doesn't need a divine stamp of approval.

Edited August 20, 2015 by MattPie

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I have to wonder if the "issues" with the quote come down to translation artifacts. Are there different English translations of the Qur'an, and do those passages agree here? Also, it's worth noting that we're reading history from the perspective of the historian. A Muslim historian is going to likely use slightly different phrases and titles for people than a non-secular person.

 

The "trickster" point is an interesting one, though, even if I don't really believe either interpretation. IMHO Jesus was a man with some radical (and generally good) ideas about how we should treat each other. He died on the cross because he upset the power structures too much (both Roman and religious). That doesn't diminish the message; a good message doesn't need a divine stamp of approval.

 

The biggest problem with smj's post is that he accepts the view of many Christians (primarily born again Christians) that the Jewish leadership killed Jesus (PBUH).  The *we* in that ayat smj cited does not refer to the Jewish leadership.  It is generally viewed to mean the Romans.

 

Another major issue that I have is that some people think, as smj pointed out, that there was a substitute person on the cross that was made to look like Jesus (PBUH).  Many believe that this is not the case, as God does not use deceit.  This is what I believe, as when the ayat states that *it was made to look like Jesus was crucified* it does not mean what smj thinks.  God can do anything in anyway.  It is accepted by many (including myself) that God made it look like someone was on the cross (Jesus (PBUH)), but in fact it was all fake ... an image created by God for all to witness, but it was not real.  In fact, many believe that the crucifixion did not happen at all, which takes the God does not use deceit view even further.  Based on the ayat cited I have some issues with this, as well.

 

Now many Muslims do believe that there was a volunteer who was substituted on the cross that was made by God to look like Jesus.  This seems the view of a majority of Islamic Scholars, but I have a problem with this, as outlined above.  Others believe that Jesus was, indeed, crucified, but did not die on the cross since he was not on the cross long enough to die, but it was made to appear as if he did by God.  Again, I have issues with this opinion.

 

I don't really like posting links to Wikipedia, but the account below is pretty accurate.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death

 

The biggest issue that I have with smj's post is that he opens with saying he intends to be respectful.  The main part of his post dies not bother me, as it is his belief.  I take no issue with that. 

 

Near the end he talks about when *the Qur'an was written in the 7th Century AD*.  That is the most disrespectful thing anyone can say to a Muslim (the bold and underlining are mine).

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sabres Fan In NS

[woods-racer]

 

 

Near the end he talks about when *the Qur'an was written in the 7th Century AD*.  That is the most disrespectful thing anyone can say to a Muslim (the bold and underlining are mine).

 

I am ignorant as to why smj would say that and why its disrespectful. So a couple of questions.

 

Is there a Christian theory or book that tries to prove the date the Qur'an was written? 

 

Does the Qur'an as a  Muslim believes'  have a very specific date as to when it was written?

 

 My assumption was that the Qur'an's origin pre dates the time of Jesus. That it must have been revised or translated to multiple languages through out the years seems logical to me, but it's origin has to be some time BC.

 

A little further knowledge would be appreciated.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I am ignorant as to why smj would say that and why its disrespectful. So a couple of questions.

 

Is there a Christian theory or book that tries to prove the date the Qur'an was written? 

 

Does the Qur'an as a  Muslim believes'  have a very specific date as to when it was written?

 

 My assumption was that the Qur'an's origin pre dates the time of Jesus. That it must have been revised or translated to multiple languages through out the years seems logical to me, but it's origin has to be some time BC.

 

A little further knowledge would be appreciated.

 

I know why he would say it.

 

It is disrespectful because when someone says that the Qur'an was written in the 7th century they mean that they do not accept that it was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH) and that he, or someone he knew, since he was unlettered (a polite way of saying illiterate) just wrote it ... made it up.  Only a most disrespectful person would say such a thing to a Muslim, as we believe the Qur'an is the unaltered word of God as revealed directly to Muhammad (PBUH) through the arch-angel Gabriel.  Even if a person does not believe the above they do not say that to a Muslim, if they do, indeed, respect the views of that Muslim.

 

I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to you in what I say below, as I believe your intention is clearly to seek knowledge and understanding.

 

We (Muslims) believe ... 

 

The Qur'an was revealed to Muhammed (PBUH) starting in around the year 609 (when he was 40) and continued until his death in 632.  So, long after the accepted time of Jesus (PBUH).  The Qur'an has been translated (there is always something lost in any translation, so many Muslims attempt to learn the classical Arabic language of the Qur'an) into most, if not all, human languages, but it's origin is not before Jesus (PBUH).  The Qur'an has NEVER been revised, except in very limited and exceptional cases, by Allah during the time of revelation.

 

The most trusted friends of Muhammad (PBUH) began writing down the revelations during his lifetime.  There was not a completed version of the entire Qur'an compiled until shortly after Muhammad's (PBUH) death.  These written versions were codified (to eliminate some minor differences in the written versions) about 20 years after Muhammad's (PBUH) death into the Qur'an we have today.

 

In the Qur'an itself Allah (God) states that He will preserve it.  Therefore, we believe that the Qur'an we read / recite today is exactly how it was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH).  That said, the order of the sura is arranged in today's Qur'an from longest (except for the opening sura, which is the sura that is most often recited ... each Muslim will recite it every time they pray, at least twice) to shortest.

 

As far as I know there is no Christian book that attempts to accept, or verify, any of the above.

 

Another Wikipedia (yikes) link.  Again, this one is pretty good ...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran 

 

With respect,

 

NS

 

Salam / Peace.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Sabres Fan In NS

[woods-racer]

Thank you NS for your response, you could show no disrespect  towards me by providing me knowledge.  You showed nothing but respect by responding as truthful and articulate as you did. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Thank you NS for your response, you could show no disrespect  towards me by providing me knowledge.  You showed nothing but respect by responding as truthful and articulate as you did. 

 

Thank you good sir.

 

I suggest you read the Qur'an with an open mind and heart.  It is the best source for knowledge concerning Islam (real Islam, that is ... today's Islam is somewhat watered down by tradition).

 

As noted the Qur'an loses something in any translation.  I suggest this version, which has the classical Arabic of the original and an excellent English interpretation (a better word than translation), with notes by the interpretor ... his lifetime work ... A. Yusuf Ali.

 

Some links that may be of interest to you.  They are to some trusted Qur'an web sites.

 

http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/

 

I only post the links here for your knowledge, if you care to explore them, as there must be no compulsion in religion.

[biodork]

I always appreciate NS's perspective on things, and willingness to impart information to those of us who are unfamiliar with Islam.

 

On a completely unrelated (and much lighter) note:

 

the TL;DR version of the Bible

Edited August 22, 2015 by biodork

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I always appreciate NS's perspective on things, and willingness to impart information to those of us who are unfamiliar with Islam.

 

On a completely unrelated (and much lighter) note:

 

the TL;DR version of the Bible

 

Thank you.

 

I just want to be clear that I am not preaching to anyone.  As I have stated often there must be no compulsion in religion.

 

Knowledge is key to our continued existence.  That is my only goal here to impart some knowledge on a subject that I know somewhat ... again, I am no expert, but try to understand and learn myself.  One must use a critical mind when reading on a particular subject and Islam is no different, as even the Qur'an itself is open to many interpretations.  I am comfortable in the way I look at things, but I accept that my views are my own and others will see things differently, including by Brothers and Sisters in Islam.

 

-----

 

EDIT:

 

I enjoyed that link.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Sabres Fan In NS

[biodork]

Thank you.

 

I just want to be clear that I am not preaching to anyone.  As I have stated often there must be no compulsion in religion.

 

Knowledge is key to our continued existence.  That is my only goal here to impart some knowledge on a subject that I know somewhat ... again, I am no expert, but try to understand and learn myself.  One must use a critical mind when reading on a particular subject and Islam is no different, as even the Qur'an itself is open to many interpretations.  I am comfortable in the way I look at things, but I accept that my views are my own and others will see things differently, including by Brothers and Sisters in Islam.

 

-----

 

EDIT:

 

I enjoyed that link.

I know you aren't preaching; that's a large part of why I appreciate it! Detailed information and perspective with no agenda.

[smj]

The biggest problem with smj's post is that he accepts the view of many Christians (primarily born again Christians) that the Jewish leadership killed Jesus (PBUH).  The *we* in that ayat smj cited does not refer to the Jewish leadership.  It is generally viewed to mean the Romans.

 

Another major issue that I have is that some people think, as smj pointed out, that there was a substitute person on the cross that was made to look like Jesus (PBUH).  Many believe that this is not the case, as God does not use deceit.  This is what I believe, as when the ayat states that *it was made to look like Jesus was crucified* it does not mean what smj thinks.  God can do anything in anyway.  It is accepted by many (including myself) that God made it look like someone was on the cross (Jesus (PBUH)), but in fact it was all fake ... an image created by God for all to witness, but it was not real.  In fact, many believe that the crucifixion did not happen at all, which takes the God does not use deceit view even further.  Based on the ayat cited I have some issues with this, as well.

 

Now many Muslims do believe that there was a volunteer who was substituted on the cross that was made by God to look like Jesus.  This seems the view of a majority of Islamic Scholars, but I have a problem with this, as outlined above.  Others believe that Jesus was, indeed, crucified, but did not die on the cross since he was not on the cross long enough to die, but it was made to appear as if he did by God.  Again, I have issues with this opinion.

 

I don't really like posting links to Wikipedia, but the account below is pretty accurate.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Jesus%27_death

 

The biggest issue that I have with smj's post is that he opens with saying he intends to be respectful.  The main part of his post dies not bother me, as it is his belief.  I take no issue with that. 

 

Near the end he talks about when *the Qur'an was written in the 7th Century AD*.  That is the most disrespectful thing anyone can say to a Muslim (the bold and underlining are mine).

First off, did not intend to be disrespectful with the term written.  Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God and when others suggest it was merely written by men I assume it is a similar thing that you are finding offensive.  At some point both were put into language so no harm intended.

 

Another issue is what is to account for the empty tomb that was guarded by romans.  Regardless of who was crucified for the moment the explanations of what happened to the body are harder to believe than the resurrection predicted in the OT written long before the events and predicted by Jesus.  What of all the appearances of Jesus after the resurrection to both non-believers and believers alike?  All of those were hallucinations or visions?  What did the apostles and James and Paul get for their newfound preaching boldness?  Not fame and fortune like today but lifetimes of persecution and martyrdom.

 

I believe some Muslims believe God would never allow Christ to die because that would mean men could destroy the divine Word but that is not understanding that we needed Christ to die as reconciliation for our sins and it was God's plan which makes born-again Christianity unique to all other religions that require people to "earn" standing before God.  I think that uniqueness is key.  Ephesians 2:8-9 explain, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not the result of works so that no one may boast.   

 

Also, If I am not mistaken most Muslims do believe the original interpretation I shared above which does call into question those original issues.

 

Finally, I must say the political correctness of all of this is kind of amusing.  We have to try and disagree without being offensive in any way or changing anyone else's mind.  I have read and considered opposing points of view.  Again, if you are interested please read In Defense of Easter by Chaffey.  Logically, it takes more faith to believe the alternative views that to simply believe Jesus was who He said He was, he was killed on a cross, resurrected as predicted well before His birth and by Him and as observed by hundreds of people whom early Christians could have checked with and saw taken up into Heaven at the Ascension.

Edited August 23, 2015 by smj

[Sabres Fan in NS]

smj,

 

I do enjoy this discussion.

 

I will take you at your word, as my faith says I am supposed to, but more than that I have no personal reason not to believe you when you say that you meant no disrespect for what you said in your previous post.  You must know and understand my position though, as most times it is disrespectful, as a Muslim, to hear that said.

 

I do study other faith traditions in an effort to gain understanding and knowledge.

 

I am different than many Muslims and many people of other faiths that believe that there way is the right and only way.  I truly believe, as it states in the Qur'an, that what you and anyone else believes is right and the way for them, as my faith is right and the way for me.

 

May Allah / God bless you with tranquility and peace in your life.

 

Salam / Peace.

[biodork]

smj,

 

I do enjoy this discussion.

 

I will take you at your word, as my faith says I am supposed to, but more than that I have no personal reason not to believe you when you say that you meant no disrespect for what you said in your previous post.  You must know and understand my position though, as most times it is disrespectful, as a Muslim, to hear that said.

 

I do study other faith traditions in an effort to gain understanding and knowledge.

 

I am different than many Muslims and many people of other faiths that believe that there way is the right and only way.  I truly believe, as it states in the Qur'an, that what you and anyone else believes is right and the way for them, as my faith is right and the way for me.

 

May Allah / God bless you with tranquility and peace in your life.

 

Salam / Peace.

If more people shared this mindset, the world would be much better off.  Cheers, NS.

[Neo]

 

 

If more people shared this mindset, the world would be much better off.  Cheers, NS.

If more shared NS's mindset toward any issue he's commented on, the world would be much better off.

 

Excellent observation, Bio. Also, excellent signature with props to you and LGR4GM.

[biodork]

If more shared NS's mindset toward any issue he's commented on, the world would be much better off.

 

Excellent observation, Bio. Also, excellent signature with props to you and LGR4GM.

:beer:

[K8prisoner]

my apologies in advance , I am not trying to stir rthings or create anything other than more understanding for myself and my wife on all subject such as these... it is also quite detrimental to me personally to lie ,,, well, that out of the way I have few questions that trouble me about both religions that you started to address above and... thanks for everyone for being so open and forthright on issues such as this..

 

I was started roman catholic and quit with parents permission when I was 11 due to the cruelty of the nuns and the inconsistencies in the instruction... I went to Nichols ('80s) on scholarship after I quit, was very poor. (so you know my POV)

 

 

please explain your point of view regarding the satanic verses (rushdie)...  both the difference from your perspective between the Tetragrammatons'  words in the  torah and christian bible ( even possibly the coffin text spells that resemble the Old T first five books along with cuneiform Gilgamesh) and Allah s  words which are slightly or vastly different in the Quaran. You mentioned that the original version has never been altered . Do you believe a group such as the khazars'  altered the Torah creating  an evolving Talmud creating the need for yeshua/jsus and then restating the point to Mohammed to stop the adding and subtracting of his word?..  if I have offended , my apologies for my bad grammar but I would prefer to ask those who know more than I so I can shorten my research time .. thank you.  (peace)

 

 

   one more.... do you believe the structure at Roslyn represents your faith and is a union of all faiths with math, phi and the flower of life which unites all in one language while maintaining the humble aspect of being a servant to something greater than yourself .. or is this another impure clever subterfuge etc for a hidden agenda..?

Edited August 23, 2015 by K8prisoner

[Sabres Fan in NS]

If more people shared this mindset, the world would be much better off.  Cheers, NS.

 

 

If more shared NS's mindset toward any issue he's commented on, the world would be much better off.

 

Excellent observation, Bio. Also, excellent signature with props to you and LGR4GM.

 

Thank you to both of you.

 

I appreciate the sentiment of your acknowledgements.  I fell the same way about both of you and the vast majority of posters here.  We may have differing views, but generally the discussions have been respectful and I am encouraged by that concerning the future of this planet.

 

My hope is that what happens on this board is carried forward into our real lives, which is not always easy.

 

Peace.

 

:wub:

 

-----

 

EDIT:

 

Thank you for not pointing out my horrible typo / spelling error ... there vs. their.

 

:oops:

Edited August 23, 2015 by Sabres Fan In NS

[Sabres Fan in NS]

K8prisoner,

 

Thank you for your questions and I did not find them the least bit offensive.  I applaud your seeking of knowledge and understanding.  I will address them from the Islamic perspective.  As usual, I hope this does not sound like I am preaching, as there must be no compulsion in religion.

 

I also was raised Roman Catholic, but left the church when the questions I had could not be answered to my satisfaction.

 

As a Muslim I believe, as is outlined in the Qur'an, that the original Scripture as delivered to Moses (PBUH) and that the original Gospels, as delivered to Jesus (PBUH) were indeed perfect as Allah / God revealed them.  The Qur'an is also quite clear that after some time misguided (perhaps evil) men altered both of those Scriptures to meet with their desired needs / agendas.

 

The Qur'an, we believe, was revealed to Muhammad (PBUH) to confirm the previous scriptures and, as Allah / God promised in the Qur'an, He would safeguard it from being altered in any way.  The Qur'an also adds some to the older Scriptures.

 

As for the Satanic Verses.  There were stories that Muhammad (PBUH) altered, by his own free will and with the encouragement of Satan, some ayat (verses) of the Qur'an in order to appease the Pegan Arabs who were horribly persecuting him.  The story is that Muhammed changed the ayat (verses) from stating that the 3 main Pegan Gods are a figment of the Pegan's imagination to that they could be recognized as sub-Gods who worked with and helped the main Allah / God. This clearly is in direct contradiction of the oneness of Allah / God that is the main theme of all 3 of the divine scriptures.  The story is that Muhammad (PBUH) received a revelation and then changed it as outlined above.  When Muhammed (PBUH) recited these so-called Satanic Verses Allah was very upset and immediately set the record straight, so to speak, with an altered revelation that replaced the, so called, Satanic Verses.

 

Muslims believe that this was a made up story by someone who had an agenda, as the whole notion, as outlined above, is utterly ridiculous. There is no possible way that that story could have happened.  There is no possible way that Muhammad (PBUH) would ever consider such a thing as changing anything revealed to him from Allah / God in any way.  So, we do not believe that the so-called Satanic Verses ever existed.

 

Salam / Peace. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by Sabres Fan In NS

[smj]

smj,

 

I do enjoy this discussion.

 

I will take you at your word, as my faith says I am supposed to, but more than that I have no personal reason not to believe you when you say that you meant no disrespect for what you said in your previous post.  You must know and understand my position though, as most times it is disrespectful, as a Muslim, to hear that said.

 

I do study other faith traditions in an effort to gain understanding and knowledge.

 

I am different than many Muslims and many people of other faiths that believe that there way is the right and only way.  I truly believe, as it states in the Qur'an, that what you and anyone else believes is right and the way for them, as my faith is right and the way for me.

 

May Allah / God bless you with tranquility and peace in your life.

 

Salam / Peace.

Sabres Fan in NS,

 

I appreciate your very gracious discussion.  I enjoy talking about politics and religion, especially when it is civil even though it means you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable.  We can be passionate about our point of view without being emotional.  I can tell you are an intelligent and kind person from the way you write.

 

I will say I can't agree with the many roads lead to the same place theology I have bolded above which I have heard expressed many times in different ways.  Some have said religions are like different rivers that all lead to the same place.  I just cannot logically agree with that argument and do not think it is true.  Religions seem the same peripherally in many ways - we may pray and worship in like ways but when you drill down theologically they contradict one another.  I'd rather be open to the possibility I am wrong than try to believe it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you believe in something.  If I ever got to that point I would throw up my hands and be an agnostic.  For example, in the Bible Isaac was blessed while under Islam Ishmael was blessed.  I know who was actually blessed is quite controversial but both cannot be true.  It is an either/or scenario and as long as one nation appears to be blessed over another that version would appear to be correct at the expense of the other.  The closer to the core one gets the more fanatical members of each nation/religion get because the proof of their beliefs are tied into the fortunes of the opposite scenario.  

 

I know it is politically correct to say both answers can be correct but I can't be honest intellectually with myself and say that.  The best analogy I've heard is that when I cross the street it is either the bus or me - but not both.  That's why I view the concept of Jesus Christ as redeemer through 100% grace as unique among all religions.  Many forms of Christianity have been confusing on that issue which is unfortunate.  That's why I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 above. 

Edited August 24, 2015 by smj

[Sabres Fan in NS]

smj,

 

I appreciate your kind words and appreciate your take on things.  As I have said, if that works and is right for you then I have no issues at all with it.

 

One small correction.  Islam teaches that both Isaac (PBUH) and Ishmael (PBUH) were blessed as the direct offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham) (PBUH).  Muslims view all three as Prophets and Messengers of Allah, along with all the numerous other Prophets ... we (Muslims) do not view any Prophet and / or Messenger above another.  One (Isaac) (PBUH) was blessed and was anointed as the for father of the Jewish, therefore Jesus (PBUH), faith and tradition.  The other (Ishmael) (PBUH) was anointed the for father of the Islamic, therefore Muhammad (PBUH), faith and tradition.

 

We (you and me, as well as all Muslims, Jews and Christians, in addition to all other faith communities) have much more in common than differences.  I have a calming peace surrounding me with that understanding.

 

Salam / Peace,

 

NS

[Doohickie]

Kind of off-topic from the recent conversation, but last night i had the honor of attending the ordination of a friend as minister in the Lutheran Church.  This is the culmination of roughly 15 years of study for him.  His first assignment is to go to Long Beach, CA, and revive a congregation that has died ("re-planting").  This is a serious mission for him and his young family.

[SwampD]

smj,

 

I appreciate your kind words and appreciate your take on things.  As I have said, if that works and is right for you then I have no issues at all with it.

 

One small correction.  Islam teaches that both Isaac (PBUH) and Ishmael (PBUH) were blessed as the direct offspring of Ibrahim (Abraham) (PBUH).  Muslims view all three as Prophets and Messengers of Allah, along with all the numerous other Prophets ... we (Muslims) do not view any Prophet and / or Messenger above another.  One (Isaac) (PBUH) was blessed and was anointed as the for father of the Jewish, therefore Jesus (PBUH), faith and tradition.  The other (Ishmael) (PBUH) was anointed the for father of the Islamic, therefore Muhammad (PBUH), faith and tradition.

 

We (you and me, as well as all Muslims, Jews and Christians, in addition to all other faith communities) have much more in common than differences.  I have a calming peace surrounding me with that understanding.

 

Salam / Peace,

 

NS

I have a question,… it's not so much about your faith, but how you practice it.

 

Do you have a function key programmed to write (PBUH) or do you have to type it out each time?

Because that would really be a test of my faith if I had to type it out every time. :lol:

 

 

 

You guys have been having a great discussion.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Kind of off-topic from the recent conversation, but last night i had the honor of attending the ordination of a friend as minister in the Lutheran Church.  This is the culmination of roughly 15 years of study for him.  His first assignment is to go to Long Beach, CA, and revive a congregation that has died ("re-planting").  This is a serious mission for him and his young family.

 

Not off topic in the least.  This is the theology thread after all.

 

That is great news.  Please pass on my congratulations to your newly ordained friend.  My hope is that the Almighty will bless him and his good work that he is embarking on.

 

I have a question,… it's not so much about your faith, but how you practice it.

 

Do you have a function key programmed to write (PBUH) or do you have to type it out each time?

Because that would really be a test of my faith if I had to type it out every time. :lol:

 

 

 

You guys have been having a great discussion.

 

Good question.

 

No.  As far as I know, there is no function key for (PBUH).

 

As a Muslim, I have to ask for the blessings of Allah whenever I mention the name of a Prophet of Allah.  PBUH stands for ... Peace and Blessings be upon him.

 

I agree, it is a great discussion.