OT - The Economics of Buffalo

[darksabre]

I read an article on Aljazeera yesterday that really got me thinking. I spend a lot of time contemplating the future of Buffalo and the future of its people.

 

http://www.aljazeera...5521158885.html

 

This really struck me:

 

Struggling US cities of the rust belt and heartland lack the investment of coastal contemporaries, but have in turn been spared the rapid displacement of hipster economics. Buffered by their eternal uncoolness, these slow-changing cities have a chance to make better choices - choices that value the lives of people over the aesthetics of place.

 

We talk a lot here about where Buffalo has been, and where Buffalo is going. We know T-Pegs is pumping a ton of money into the Canalside area. Local entrepreneurs are doing their part with homegrown businesses. The Larkin district is reinventing itself and as a result people who once lived in the suburbs are coming back downtown. I say people, but perhaps what I mean specifically are the already-well-to-do white collar people of Buffalo. We're making our paths back into the city.

 

But what does the future hold for the rest of the people who live there, the ones who never left, and now get to sit and watch us move back in? Can the Rebirth of Buffalo include them? How do we move back in with innocent thoughts of gentrification on our minds, only to find that we're just exercising a new sort of Manifest Destiny?

 

I think we can make Buffalo great and give the people who never left it a reason to stay. I think businesses with a community focus are going to be key. We need business owners who want to create jobs and build communities, not just line their own pockets. Buffalo's only chance as we move forward is to be human beings acting like human beings.

[That Aud Smell]

But what does the future hold for the rest of the people who live there, the ones who never left, and now get to sit and watch us move back in? Can the Rebirth of Buffalo include them? How do we move back in with innocent thoughts of gentrification on our minds, only to find that we're just exercising a new sort of Manifest Destiny?

 

This is a great point. And it's an issue that Detroit has been dealing with for some time,

 

http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/27/real_estate/downtown-detroit/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

 

and that Buffalo is starting to grapple with,

 

http://buffalorising.com/2014/03/residents-and-officials-fear-fruit-belt-gentrification/

[nfreeman]

I read an article on Aljazeera yesterday that really got me thinking. I spend a lot of time contemplating the future of Buffalo and the future of its people.

 

http://www.aljazeera...5521158885.html

 

This really struck me:

 

 

 

We talk a lot here about where Buffalo has been, and where Buffalo is going. We know T-Pegs is pumping a ton of money into the Canalside area. Local entrepreneurs are doing their part with homegrown businesses. The Larkin district is reinventing itself and as a result people who once lived in the suburbs are coming back downtown. I say people, but perhaps what I mean specifically are the already-well-to-do white collar people of Buffalo. We're making our paths back into the city.

 

But what does the future hold for the rest of the people who live there, the ones who never left, and now get to sit and watch us move back in? Can the Rebirth of Buffalo include them? How do we move back in with innocent thoughts of gentrification on our minds, only to find that we're just exercising a new sort of Manifest Destiny?

 

I think we can make Buffalo great and give the people who never left it a reason to stay. I think businesses with a community focus are going to be key. We need business owners who want to create jobs and build communities, not just line their own pockets. Buffalo's only chance as we move forward is to be human beings acting like human beings.

 

However well-intentioned, this is youthful, naive silliness. Human beings will act like human beings -- i.e. they will respond to economic incentives. If the economic incentives are there to develop and grow businesses, that is what will happen, and job creation will follow as a natural result. If the economic incentives are absent -- well, WNYers know how that story goes.

[PASabreFan]

Thanks d4rk. This discussion comes at a good time. I'm a single free agent now unencumbered by family obligations (aging parents kicked the bucket), and I've been thinking a lot about a change of scenery. I almost gag at suggestions from family members about North Carolina-Florida-oh, you'd love Atlanta. Please. I'm a northern boy. I'm practically from Buffalo as it is. I've had more than a few thoughts about heading up 219 for good.

[That Aud Smell]

Thanks d4rk. This discussion comes at a good time. I'm a single free agent now unencumbered by family obligations (aging parents kicked the bucket), and I've been thinking a lot about a change of scenery. I almost gag at suggestions from family members about North Carolina-Florida-oh, you'd love Atlanta. Please. I'm a northern boy. I'm practically from Buffalo as it is. I've had more than a few thoughts about heading up 219 for good.

 

If you do cross that border and/or move to greater Buffalo, just promise us you'll remain our PA.

[LastPommerFan]

However well-intentioned, this is youthful, naive silliness. Human beings will act like human beings -- i.e. they will respond to economic incentives. If the economic incentives are there to develop and grow businesses, that is what will happen, and job creation will follow as a natural result. If the economic incentives are absent -- well, WNYers know how that story goes.

 

It goes a little deeper than that, though. There can be economic incentives to extract resources from an area with no care to the actual state of that area or it's people. On a large scale this is colonialism, but it comes in many forms.

 

Many people from my generation (Millennials), while yes, requiring economic incentive as a threshold item, look for something more as we build our businesses, wanting to add something to the community around us, even at the cost of some portion of our bottom line.

 

Buffalo, Rochester, the Fingerlakes, the Southern Tier, all these areas offer a lot of opportunities for young small business owners like my wife to do exactly that.

[nfreeman]

It goes a little deeper than that, though. There can be economic incentives to extract resources from an area with no care to the actual state of that area or it's people. On a large scale this is colonialism, but it comes in many forms.

 

Many people from my generation (Millennials), while yes, requiring economic incentive as a threshold item, look for something more as we build our businesses, wanting to add something to the community around us, even at the cost of some portion of our bottom line.

 

Buffalo, Rochester, the Fingerlakes, the Southern Tier, all these areas offer a lot of opportunities for young small business owners like my wife to do exactly that.

 

Well the "some portion" is the rub, innit? Certainly there are many people -- probably most people -- who would give up "some" portion of their economics to stay near home and help create jobs and contribute to their communities. But how much is too much to give up? If it's too much for most people -- then most people and businesses vote with their feet, which is what's happened to WNY for the past few generations.

[PASabreFan]

If you do cross that border and/or move to greater Buffalo, just promise us you'll remain our PA.

 

It's funny. I've always thought of Bradford as being in greater Buffalo. I was somewhat disappointed early in life to learn that the south towns Tom Jolls talked about only went as far south as Orchard Park or something. We get Buffalo TV here, not Pittsburgh. We like our wings and fish fries. We're falling down drunk half the time too. We're solidly Sabre and Bill territory, although the Pens have made inroads and the Steelers have always been strongly followed. We don't tend to have any of the strange Pennsylvania accents; some have even said the accent here is distinctly Canadian. We're certainly close enough to the Queen City to have proudly hosted Jim Kelly at our bars and hot dog stands during the Super Bowl heyday. People are still talking about the times Jimbo came to town.

[LastPommerFan]

Well the "some portion" is the rub, innit? Certainly there are many people -- probably most people -- who would give up "some" portion of their economics to stay near home and help create jobs and contribute to their communities. But how much is too much to give up? If it's too much for most people -- then most people and businesses vote with their feet, which is what's happened to WNY for the past few generations.

 

Yes, I believe that for the new, much more interconnected generation (Thanks Internet!!) that "some portion" is significantly larger than it was for the last 2 self centered generations of builders and leaders Boomers and Gen-X-ers.

[X. Benedict]

 

and that Buffalo is starting to grapple with,

 

http://buffalorising...gentrification/

 

Investment is ruining the Fruit Belt. I don't know what is funny about that precisely, but I'm laughing. :lol:

[That Aud Smell]

innit

you own that term. any time i go to use it, i feel like i should pay you a small royalty.

 

It's funny. I've always thought of Bradford as being in greater Buffalo. I was somewhat disappointed early in life to learn that the south towns Tom Jolls talked about only went as far south as Orchard Park or something. We get Buffalo TV here, not Pittsburgh. We like our wings and fish fries. We're falling down drunk half the time too. We're solidly Sabre and Bill territory, although the Pens have made inroads and the Steelers have always been strongly followed. We don't tend to have any of the strange Pennsylvania accents; some have even said the accent here is distinctly Canadian. We're certainly close enough to the Queen City to have proudly hosted Jim Kelly at our bars and hot dog stands during the Super Bowl heyday. People are still talking about the times Jimbo came to town.

 

good stuff, and good to know!

 

the southtowns are more or less limited to hamburg/O.P. (once you get into boston, colden, that's trending toward "ski country"). and then once you're further down into places like catt county and such, it's the (western) southern tier of NYS. i believe bradford would qualify as the (western) northern tier of PA in counterpart to our southern tier.

 

Investment is ruining the Fruit Belt. I don't know what is funny about that precisely, but I'm laughing. :lol:

i get it.

 

that buffalo rising piece actually speaks to the research that indicates that gentrification does not negatively affect people who were there before the money started to flow.

 

then again, if you pay attention to the media profiles of the working poor in boom towns like D.C., san fran, and boston, you will hear story after story about how people of modest means simply can't afford to live in major urban areas anymore.

 

prosperity is of course a boon, and poor cities and neighborhoods must court it and then welcome it. but, as age-old teachings tell us, all blessings come with challenges. the buffalo medical campus renaissance will not be a success if long-time homeowners in the fruit belt get priced out of the neighborhood that they worked to hold together for decades. i don't think that will happen, though.

Edited May 30, 2014 by That Aud Smell

[nfreeman]

Yes, I believe that for the new, much more interconnected generation (Thanks Internet!!) that "some portion" is significantly larger than it was for the last 2 self centered generations of builders and leaders Boomers and Gen-X-ers.

 

I think I'll dust off an old retort for this.

 

Nonsense.

[sabills]

However well-intentioned, this is youthful, naive silliness. Human beings will act like human beings -- i.e. they will respond to economic incentives. If the economic incentives are there to develop and grow businesses, that is what will happen, and job creation will follow as a natural result. If the economic incentives are absent -- well, WNYers know how that story goes.

 

This is true, but Larkinville is a great example of a private business doing well for the public.

 

http://vibrantbayarea.org/2014/05/great-public-spaces-neednt-be-owned-by-the-public/

 

You can't depend on it, but it does occur of its own accord.

 

This all plays into the same thing though. Create a nice public place, through public or private funding, and then, theoretically, the private sector will see the incentive in building up around it.

 

When it comes to gentrification, take a look at this article:

 

http://www.npr.org/2014/01/22/264528139/long-a-dirty-word-gentrification-may-be-losing-its-stigma

[PASabreFan]

the southtowns are more or less limited to hamburg/O.P. (once you get into boston, colden, that's trending toward "ski country"). and then once you're further down into places like catt county and such, it's the (western) southern tier of NYS. i believe bradford would qualify as the (western) northern tier of PA in counterpart to our southern tier.

 

Yes, hence the term Twin Tiers.

[HopefulFuture]

The Greater Buffalo-Niagara Region is a shell of it's former self. It will rebound to some extent, but that will be a slow, very slow process. I'd venture to say not one poster in here will see it in their life time.

[PASabreFan]

The Greater Buffalo-Niagara Region is a shell of it's former self. It will rebound to some extent, but that will be a slow, very slow process. I'd venture to say not one poster in here will see it in their life time.

 

IMHO communities in the Rust Belt have to get beyond this rose-colored view. Sure, things were more prosperous and more people lived in places like Buffalo and Bradford, PA. So what? It's the past. It's gone. People here will openly tell you how great the oil boom times were. Yep, they remember living in the late 1800s and early 1900s. People were packed onto Main St. shoulder to shoulder five deep! Yep, and there were saloons, ###### houses and shoot outs during Prohibition too. Every time I see (edit: old photos of…) our gorgeous hillsides, which now draw tourists and hikers, stripped bare and dotted with oil derricks, I think "good riddance." (Of course there's still a huge polluting refinery in the middle of the valley and oil and gas drilling are ongoing, including limited fracking.)

Edited May 30, 2014 by PASabreFan

[X. Benedict]

you own that term. any time i go to use it, i feel like i should pay you a small royalty.

 

 

 

good stuff, and good to know!

 

the southtowns are more or less limited to hamburg/O.P. (once you get into boston, colden, that's trending toward "ski country"). and then once you're further down into places like catt county and such, it's the (western) southern tier of NYS. i believe bradford would qualify as the (western) northern tier of PA in counterpart to our southern tier.

 

 

i get it.

 

that buffalo rising piece actually speaks to the research that indicates that gentrification does not negatively affect people who were there before the money started to flow.

 

then again, if you pay attention to the media profiles of the working poor in boom towns like D.C., san fran, and boston, you will hear story after story about how people of modest means simply can't afford to live in major urban areas anymore.

 

prosperity is of course a boon, and poor cities and neighborhoods must court it and then welcome it. but, as age-old teachings tell us, all blessings come with challenges. the buffalo medical campus renaissance will not be a success if long-time homeowners in the fruit belt get priced out of the neighborhood that they worked to hold together for decades. i don't think that will happen, though.

I get that too.

 

I'm laughing because of the investment "problem".

The Fruit Belt is no exception. Buffalo is always conflicted by any proposed investment.

[SwampD]

However well-intentioned, this is youthful, naive silliness. Human beings will act like human beings -- i.e. they will respond to economic incentives. If the economic incentives are there to develop and grow businesses, that is what will happen, and job creation will follow as a natural result. If the economic incentives are absent -- well, WNYers know how that story goes.

Naive silliness, meet NYC cynicism, where most of those people who are only motivated by economic incentives live. I just don't buy into the "Can't win, don't try" mentality.

[Eleven]

However well-intentioned, this is youthful, naive silliness. Human beings will act like human beings -- i.e. they will respond to economic incentives. If the economic incentives are there to develop and grow businesses, that is what will happen, and job creation will follow as a natural result. If the economic incentives are absent -- well, WNYers know how that story goes.

 

I did not move back for personal economic reasons.

[LastPommerFan]

I think I'll dust off an old retort for this.

 

Nonsense.

 

The internet has had an impact on the development of one adult generation thus far, mine. Your lack of appreciation for the magnitude and consequences of this impact is unfortunate.

 

Read the research on the employment, consumption, family and lifestyle habits of Millennials as a group. You'll notice two things: We are profoundly different from our predecessors in all those areas (for better or for worse), Gen X and our parents, The Boomers, can't figure out what to make of us, how to sell us things, or how to keep us on as their employees. That is the magnitude, this generation views things through the lens of near information saturation and ubiquitous connectedness. We are wary of non-transparency in markets. We value community (although not in the same sense as previous gens) as a reflection of our selves. We are better when the people and places around us are better. This is a result of that connectedness. It's a huge difference.

 

I did not move back for personal economic reasons.

 

I moved back at an extreme personal financial loss.

[SwampD]

I did not move back for personal economic reasons.

I didn't even move to NYC for personal economic reasons.

[nfreeman]

Naive silliness, meet NYC cynicism, where most of those people who are only motivated by economic incentives live. I just don't buy into the "Can't win, don't try" mentality.

 

That's not the mentality I am espousing.

 

What I am saying is that real change is needed in WNY's structural economic incentives in order to build a strong economy there. That's where the "trying" should be focused

 

I did not move back for personal economic reasons.

 

The main issue is not so much where people decide to move to on a personal level, but whether people will decide to take risk and invest money in opening or funding a business in a given location. If the economics are structured to incentivize that kind of risk-taking (and on a large scale, not just on a one-off basis where local lowlifes can squeeze waivers out of the local government), that region's economy will grow, jobs across the economic spectrum will manifest, more people like you will move back and everyone will benefit.

 

The internet has had an impact on the development of one adult generation thus far, mine. Your lack of appreciation for the magnitude and consequences of this impact is unfortunate.

 

Read the research on the employment, consumption, family and lifestyle habits of Millennials as a group. You'll notice two things: We are profoundly different from our predecessors in all those areas (for better or for worse), Gen X and our parents, The Boomers, can't figure out what to make of us, how to sell us things, or how to keep us on as their employees. That is the magnitude, this generation views things through the lens of near information saturation and ubiquitous connectedness. We are wary of non-transparency in markets. We value community (although not in the same sense as previous gens) as a reflection of our selves. We are better when the people and places around us are better. This is a result of that connectedness. It's a huge difference.

 

 

This is of a piece with Liger's gibberish (before wisdom took hold) about digital brains and Obama.

 

I can assure you that your generation is no better or worse morally than any other. More connected? Better access to information? Yes. But one is a far cry from the other.

[LastPommerFan]

This is of a piece with Liger's gibberish (before wisdom took hold) about digital brains and Obama.

 

I can assure you that your generation is no better or worse morally than any other. More connected? Better access to information? Yes. But one is a far cry from the other.

 

Ah. I'm not coming across correctly. I am not attempting to claim a moral superiority here.

 

It is all about the connectedness. I do not believe the decision to forfeit more profit in favor of a better community is a result of being morally superior and selfless. It is still self interest, but as a result of that connectedness, we view our selves in a wider lens. Our communities are part of us, so by bettering them, we are bettering ourselves. Solely a result of being raised connected to everyone and everything around us all the time. We are no more "moral" and not less self centered than any previous generation. Simply a different sense of self.

[nfreeman]

Ah. I'm not coming across correctly. I am not attempting to claim a moral superiority here.

 

It is all about the connectedness. I do not believe the decision to forfeit more profit in favor of a better community is a result of being morally superior and selfless. It is still self interest, but as a result of that connectedness, we view our selves in a wider lens. Our communities are part of us, so by bettering them, we are bettering ourselves. Solely a result of being raised connected to everyone and everything around us all the time. We are no more "moral" and not less self centered than any previous generation. Simply a different sense of self.

 

OK. I find this reasoning unconvincing but I appreciate you bridging the gap and disclaiming moral superiority.

[darksabre]

Good discussion so far. I have a lot to say but I wanted to get things rolling. nfreeman, thank you for providing balance. Some are calling it cynicism but I think it is necessary to keep the discussion grounded.