Ted Black refuses to answer this question

[nfreeman]

 

 

Non-hockey guys approving trades makes you feel better? Lawyers, network executives, financial executives, accountants, and oil and gas men. Great.

 

 

Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

 

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years. I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

[IKnowPhysics]

Day One. "I like gritty players." Maybe your GM doesn't. The issue doesn't get any more complicated than that.

 

Then you fold in one of the Tweetie birds letting it slip that her dad liked the cut of Ehrhoff's jib, then Ehrhoff becomes a Sabres. Circumstantial, yes.

 

They boast of a "flat management structure" where input from all corners is considered, where no one has a "monopoly" on hockey knowledge. Terry flies to meet players, he's in the deadline room, the draft room, he "camped out" at the arena last summer according to Ted. I mean, they're giving you the answer to this question. Some don't want to believe it, maybe because the idea of an oil and gas man/hockey dimwit having this much control scares people.

 

And then they can't make the playoffs under him, can't get on Iginla's trade-to list two years into Hockey Heaven... Terry's honeymoon is fading but still alive and well. I just don't think people want to admit it's amateur hour at the arena and that the answer is more Rick Dudley in Buffalo and a lot more Terry Pegula in Florida, which is where he promised to be, you know, "for his family."

 

An interested owner neither predicates nor precludes a controlling owner.

[LGR4GM]

An interested owner neither predicates nor precludes a controlling owner.

yea if I owned the Sabres I would be involved because ti would be fun to see how it all goes down, that doesn't mean I interfere.

[PASabreFan]

yea if I owned the Sabres I would be involved because ti would be fun to see how it all goes down, that doesn't mean I interfere.

 

There's an old saying in the scientific world that you can't observe a process without changing it. Or something. In other words, Terry may, like you, just want to sniff around, but his very presence may be affecting things. But is it a positive or a negative affect? To use a rough analogy, if I manage a restaurant and my new owner has been in the restaurant business for decades, and has had successful restaurants, I would welcome him into the process and know there's a lot I can learn from the guy. If the new owner just won the lottery and always wanted to own a restaurant, but whose only experience was eating in restaurants, and is now in my kitchen asking me what these tongs are for... not so much.

[Jsixspd]

Well if they don't trust Regier and need to keep him on a tight leash then it is stupid to have him as GM.

[PASabreFan]

Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

 

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years. I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

 

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

[spndnchz]

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

 

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

 

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

 

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

[spndnchz]

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

 

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

 

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh? Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

[nfreeman]

I see Sawyer, who was CFO of the league and the Pens, and then president and CEO of the Pens, as a business-side guy. He's one of the accountants in my rant. There is no "hockey guy" in Buffalo above Darcy.

The point being.....new owner comes in and purchases something not going great....keeps all the same people in place......and has nobody with hockey sense to evaluate. What happens is we end up where we are today......3rd trading deadline for Pegula, tons of money spent, and the results are worse than when he arrived.

 

Even the best businesses in the world bring in outside consultants for weeks at a time to evaluate the flow and try and make improvements. So far the Sabres seem like a bunch of old friends got together and bought the local bar they always went to, and they have the same crappy manager in charge, can't find hard working people to staff the place, and are trying to do the cooking because it's fun.

 

I don't have enough info on Sawyer's hockey background to agree or disagree with PAFan's characterization of him (although I'll note that a number of league executives are and have been hockey guys). I also don't disagree with GoDD's description.

 

I guess I'm just assuming that there is plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and I can't believe that given the current state of affairs, DR is going to be given carte blanche at the deadline without the oversight of an experienced hockey guy. Whether that's Sawyer or some other kind of outside consultant, I can't say.

[PASabreFan]

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh? Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

 

Benson was a retired accountant with no affiliation with the Pens, I don't think.

 

I think we need a good working definition of "hockey guy," friend.

 

Black left the Pens to work for a sports network. Sawyer was also retired, IIRC.

 

What bugs me is that you have $4 billion and want to win a Cup. You can start from scratch and do whatever you want. Go around the world and find the best. Two years in, Darcy is your GM and you haven't looked beyond the end of your nose to staff the rest of it. Terry knew Cliff from Cliff doing accounting work for East Resources. They both lived in the Pittsburgh area and Cliff (probably) knew of Ted. Ken hired Ted in Pittsburgh, so it was time to repay the favor. I find it all lacking. I don't think the state of the franchise is much of a surprise.

 

if you have some time could you get us a list of the other 28 teams that have a hockey guy above the GM?

 

I'll look into it. Probably not many. Right off the top I can think of Mario. And Jimmy Devellano in Detroit. And those are two of the franchises you'd certainly like to emulate.

 

I'll also look at how many teams have assistant GMs.

[R_Dudley]

Well, Mr. Grumpy, I'm assuming that hockey guys like Ken Sawyer will be more important to the internal approval process on the hockey side, while TP/TB will be more important on the cap/financial side.

 

You're trying to paint a picture of an over eager, meddling owner here based on a few throwaway comments over a couple of years. I certainly agree that the overall results have been terrible, but I have a hard time believing that DR would've put a better team together if only TP hadn't forced him to sign Ehrhoff (who is a pretty good player and has only a $4MM cap hit).

 

Well I will give you he can be grumpy but comeon people this is a discussion board, PA and GoDD raise some valid points good for some reasonable. Discussion. And lets add Stafford to TP's meddling list as I recall one of his daughters gushing over him the year before they signed him to this ridiculous contract

 

You've forgotten what Black, Sawyer and Benson did in Pittsburgh? Aren't they the "outside consultants"?

 

Sorry been in Pgh for 20 years now. Yes they are the "outside Business consultants" that basically helped set up the fabulous business model that Mario has with the keys to city, Fox sports now Root sports and sweetheart deal he has in PGH.

 

The hockey guys were Patrick, Eddie Johnson, Andre Savard(yes our ex-sabre still there), Mario himself and his connections within the league,,, Compare the hockey guys in Marios organization today to Buffalo, who is there really besides Darcy?

[Taro T]

 

 

Non-hockey guys approving trades makes you feel better? Lawyers, network executives, financial executives, accountants, and oil and gas men. Great.

 

 

 

Interesting that that's how you took it. Maybe deep down you know he sucks.

 

It's been two years, so I think it's too early to make a declaration of suckitude. But he's well, well on the road to it. The results have certainly sucked so far.

 

 

Again, Ted started answering the question that way in 2011. You don't trust your GM then and he's still here now and in the interim you've missed the playoffs and are on the verge of missing again? Makes no sense. Will Darcy be here next season "on a short leash"? Terry's comment about Darcy, "I can work with him" carries more and more meaning to me.

 

 

I would never say an owner sucked for letting his hockey man do the job.

 

I'd like to get some consensus here.

 

Yes or no, simply put, should Terry set the mission, hire good people, write the checks and get out of the way?

 

I don't believe there is any concrete answer he could give that wouldn't set off some kind of alarms. I don't see his answer indicative of DR out @ the end of the year nor him having a job for life.

[spndnchz]

 

 

Benson was a retired accountant with no affiliation with the Pens, I don't think.

 

I think we need a good working definition of "hockey guy," friend.

 

Black left the Pens to work for a sports network. Sawyer was also retired, IIRC.

 

What bugs me is that you have $4 billion and want to win a Cup. You can start from scratch and do whatever you want. Go around the world and find the best. Two years in, Darcy is your GM and you haven't looked beyond the end of your nose to staff the rest of it. Terry knew Cliff from Cliff doing accounting work for East Resources. They both lived in the Pittsburgh area and Cliff (probably) knew of Ted. Ken hired Ted in Pittsburgh, so it was time to repay the favor. I find it all lacking. I don't think the state of the franchise is much of a surprise.

 

 

 

I'll look into it. Probably not many. Right off the top I can think of Mario. And Jimmy Devellano in Detroit. And those are two of the franchises you'd certainly like to emulate.

 

I'll also look at how many teams have assistant GMs.

 

They all have had affiliations with the Pens. Might wanna read the media guide.

 

Stay grumpy my friend.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

They all have had affiliations with the Pens. Might wanna read the media guide.

 

Stay grumpy my friend.

 

Should we read the media guide from 2011 for Cliff Benson.....or the most recent one.

 

History changes ya know........ ;)

[R_Dudley]

I don't have enough info on Sawyer's hockey background to agree or disagree with PAFan's characterization of him (although I'll note that a number of league executives are and have been hockey guys). I also don't disagree with GoDD's description.

 

I guess I'm just assuming that there is plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and I can't believe that given the current state of affairs, DR is going to be given carte blanche at the deadline without the oversight of an experienced hockey guy. Whether that's Sawyer or some other kind of outside consultant, I can't say.

I don't have enough info on Sawyer's hockey background to agree or disagree with PAFan's characterization of him (although I'll note that a number of league executives are and have been hockey guys). I also don't disagree with GoDD's description.

 

I guess I'm just assuming that there is plenty of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about, and I can't believe that given the current state of affairs, DR is going to be given carte blanche at the deadline without the oversight of an experienced hockey guy. Whether that's Sawyer or some other kind of outside consultant, I can't say.

 

That's the key defintion. "Hockey Guy" for this dicussion.

 

Is that just someone who worked in a hockey organization or is it someone who played, coached and/or scouted and has a plan for type of game they want to play and than goes about identifying and getting the player's it takes to execute that plan.

 

Does the GM set that plan and hire the best coach or is it the coach sets plan and tells the GM what he wants/needs ? Could it be a little of both ?

 

I am pretty sure we have multiple variations of this theme in play in the league today.

 

The real question for an owner should be, Which way works best ?

 

I would personally recommend looking at what model is predominate in the succesful organizations and SC winners over the last 10-15 years. Then I hire the best GM I can find to implement that model in my organization.

[spndnchz]

 

 

Should we read the media guide from 2011 for Cliff Benson.....or the most recent one.

 

History changes ya know........ ;)

 

You don't want a discussion you want an indictment.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

You don't want a discussion you want an indictment.

 

I've said what I think the structure is currently.......Terry wants stars on the team....wants them to score and be tougher....mentioned some names....Darcy likes one and can live with the other....Ted is all giddy and wants to do his part in the process.....Darcy wants to save his job so better land at least one of the two.....Miller/Pom/Stafford/Regehr all probably going to go.

 

And as far as that whole other thing....I would have liked some serious comments from all of the Sabres brass. Good men face the music in the face of evil.

[deluca67]

I've said what I think the structure is currently.......Terry wants stars on the team....wants them to score and be tougher....mentioned some names....Darcy likes one and can live with the other....Ted is all giddy and wants to do his part in the process.....Darcy wants to save his job so better land at least one of the two.....Miller/Pom/Stafford/Regehr all probably going to go.

 

And as far as that whole other thing....I would have liked some serious comments from all of the Sabres brass. Good men face the music in the face of evil.

The team is in shambles and fans are angry, why wouldn't those in charge come out and actually answer some tough questions. I am getting the feeling that the lack of leadership that is so apparent on the ice is a a reflection of a lack of leadership throughout the organization.

 

I have absolutely no faith that the Sabres front office is discussing any significant changes. As it has been in previous seasons the focus will be on spinning the 2013 season. They will spend the off-season selling "the Core" and any insignificant move they make.

 

Change begins when Darcey Regier is fired. Any move made while Darcey Regier is GM is doomed to add to this fan base's long suffering misery.

[PASabreFan]

You don't want a discussion you want an indictment.

 

You can't handle an indictment!

 

Sorry, your post came through in the voice of Tom Cruise.

 

They all have had affiliations with the Pens. Might wanna read the media guide.

 

Stay grumpy my friend.

 

Meh. I'll give up 1% of the point. With assistance from the Pens, and along with the Penguins Alumni Association, Cliff formed "Hockey in the Hood" in 2000. Weak chz sauce.

[Jsixspd]

It's amazing to me that a small-market town like Buffalo has two major league teams - the Bills and the Sabres - that both share a similar problem - incompetent GMs who should have been shown the door but are left to linger on. Bills have good old bumbling Buddy Nix - a corn-pone hayseed who is so incredibly dumb he got spoofed into getting recorded on a lengthy prank call. Most teams would have shown him the door then just out of a general sense of embarrassment and decorum, but not the ineptly managed Buffalo Bills. It's no accident they haven't made the playoffs in 13 years, and it's because of having idiots like Nix on the roster.

 

And, at Sabres headquarters - you've got Pegula who inexplicably gives a guy who's managed the team for 17 years, with an overpaid roster lacking in talent and in disarray, a team that's soft to the core, and lazy, and he just extends his contract.

 

Mindblowing.

[spndnchz]

A going away present.

[IKnowPhysics]

Sorry, back to this.

Day One. "I like gritty players." Maybe your GM doesn't. The issue doesn't get any more complicated than that.

 

Then you fold in one of the Tweetie birds letting it slip that her dad liked the cut of Ehrhoff's jib, then Ehrhoff becomes a Sabres. Circumstantial, yes.

 

They boast of a "flat management structure" where input from all corners is considered, where no one has a "monopoly" on hockey knowledge. Terry flies to meet players, he's in the deadline room, the draft room, he "camped out" at the arena last summer according to Ted. I mean, they're giving you the answer to this question. Some don't want to believe it, maybe because the idea of an oil and gas man/hockey dimwit having this much control scares people.

 

And then they can't make the playoffs under him, can't get on Iginla's trade-to list two years into Hockey Heaven... Terry's honeymoon is fading but still alive and well. I just don't think people want to admit it's amateur hour at the arena and that the answer is more Rick Dudley in Buffalo and a lot more Terry Pegula in Florida, which is where he promised to be, you know, "for his family."

 

How does "Lindy ain't goin' nowhere" and then Lindy being fired fit into the Terry Pegula Controls the World scheme?

 

Because that statement by Pegula on day one was probably the most direct and most clear statement he's ever made regarding the hockey department during his tenure here, and Lindy's firing is, so far, this season's biggest move in the hockey department. It seems enormously contradictory with the theory that he directly pulls the strings through Regier or allows his inner fanboy to manage the team.

[Ghost of Dwight Drane]

Sorry, back to this.

 

 

How does "Lindy ain't goin' nowhere" and then Lindy being fired fit into the Terry Pegula Controls the World scheme?

 

Because that statement by Pegula on day one was probably the most direct and most clear statement he's ever made regarding the hockey department during his tenure here, and Lindy's firing is, so far, this season's biggest move in the hockey department. It seems enormously contradictory with the theory that he directly pulls the strings through Regier or allows his inner fanboy to manage the team.

 

Because Teddy ran all his fan comment emails through advanced analytics algorithms.......and they stated the fanbase was 8 standard deviations to the right of wanting to F'n kill someone in the organization........

[IKnowPhysics]

Donny, you're out of your element.