BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Oh for God's sake. Jagr and Doan, even on the down slope, are each twice the player that Pommer is. And Eriksson has much more game. http://www.dobberhoc...0-2011%3AR%3A99 Doan and Pommer are very different players ... I don't know that Doan is TWICE the player but he brings things the Sabres lack in their top 6 (physicality, leadership) ... and he's cheaper. if Pominville's pricetag was $3.5M instead $5.3M there would be far fewer complaints about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Doan and Pommer are very different players ... I don't know that Doan is TWICE the player but he brings things the Sabres lack in their top 6 (physicality, leadership) ... and he's cheaper. if Pominville's pricetag was $3.5M instead $5.3M there would be far fewer complaints about him. I agree and I love doans game but I dont understand the pominville bashign right now. We need a whipping boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree and I love doans game but I dont understand the pominville bashign right now. We need a whipping boy. FWIW I thought Pominville may have been the best Sabre in the stretch run - the last 15 games of so... Love Doan, but I don't think Doan is going to be that guy anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Doan and Pommer are very different players ... I don't know that Doan is TWICE the player but he brings things the Sabres lack in their top 6 (physicality, leadership) ... and he's cheaper. if Pominville's pricetag was $3.5M instead $5.3M there would be far fewer complaints about him. Yes. He's a good player and I still think he's the best two-way forward on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Thank god you are not the GM :bag: http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpool_compare.php?compare%5B%5D=1176&compare%5B%5D=180&sent=go&games=2010-2011%3AR%3A99 That dobberhockey comparison site is pretty cool. Don't you think the comparison supports Doan over Pommer? Doan and Pommer are very different players ... I don't know that Doan is TWICE the player but he brings things the Sabres lack in their top 6 (physicality, leadership) ... and he's cheaper. if Pominville's pricetag was $3.5M instead $5.3M there would be far fewer complaints about him. I agree with all of this. Saying Doan was twice the player that Pommer is may have been an exaggeration, but I would still trade Pommer for Doan in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree with all of this. Saying Doan was twice the player that Pommer is may have been an exaggeration, but I would still trade Pommer for Doan in a heartbeat. At this point in their contracts I might too, given that it would free up so much money next summer (not just for the ever-elusive #1 center possibility but to make sure we can lock up the Tylers) ... but in terms of just on-ice stuff, I'd rather find some other way to add Doan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 FWIW I thought Pominville may have been the best Sabre in the stretch run - the last 15 games of so... Love Doan, but I don't think Doan is going to be that guy anymore. Thats the key, Doan is getting on. If we're looking to build a successful franchise for years to come it doesnt make sense to trade away players like pom at this stage, maybe next year. :) imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Jason Pominville at this point is better than Jagr. Better. Not worse, not almost the same, not Jagr was so good once upon a time, BETTER. Jagr is old and hes not at the NHL level and the only thing that will help him do decent are his linemates. Id rather have Pommers on this team than old jagr any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree and I love doans game but I dont understand the pominville bashign right now. We need a whipping boy. Who is bashing Pominville? They were saying they'd rather have a few other players in exchange. That's not bashing. And it's not setting up a whipping boy. It's just stating a preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Jason Pominville at this point is better than Jagr. Better. Not worse, not almost the same, not Jagr was so good once upon a time, BETTER. Jagr is old and hes not at the NHL level and the only thing that will help him do decent are his linemates. Id rather have Pommers on this team than old jagr any day of the week. What, specifically, are your opinions of Jagr's current abilities based on? Have you been watching him in the KHL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 What, specifically, are your opinions of Jagr's current abilities based on? Have you been watching him in the KHL? He looked very good in the World Championships. But the overall quality of play there is somewhere between AHL and NHL. Also, there is a little more time to make plays with the bigger ice. He still has the hands, but he won't get that kind of space in the NHL. He never really back-checked to begin with, so that much is a wash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 He looked very good in the World Championships. But the overall quality of play there is somewhere between AHL and NHL. Also, there is a little more time to make plays with the bigger ice. He still has the hands, but he won't get that kind of space in the NHL. He never really back-checked to begin with, so that much is a wash. I don't think anyone is claiming he is the Jagr of 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. But, since we're having hypothetical summer dog day discussions, and the question is whether I'd rather have Pommer on his current contract or Jagr on his current contract, my answer is Jagr. I would love to see Jagr on the half-wall on the Sabres' power play with Vanek in front, Leino on the other side and Erhoff and Sekera on the points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 What, specifically, are your opinions of Jagr's current abilities based on? Have you been watching him in the KHL? Well, that cuts both ways ... why do you think Jagr is better now? The last time they were both in the NHL (2007-08), Pominville was the better player. He had more points, killed penalties (which Jagr doesn't do) and was a far better two-way player. Add in the pouting that Jagr used to bring, and I'd have taken Pommer. Granted, he has not been as productive since then, but the other elements of his game are still there. I doubt Jagr is going to suddenly become so much more productive at 38 ... he might be a nice toy have for your power play, but Pominville is still bringing more to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 What, specifically, are your opinions of Jagr's current abilities based on? Have you been watching him in the KHL? I am basing it off of his numbers in the years before he left the NHL, they were good but dropping steadily. Then you take into account that he spent 3 years playing in the KHL which everyone says is not as talented. So now you have a player who was in decline before he left and is older, he has not been competing at the NHL level and finally the NHL has tightened up since Jagr's departure as far as post lockout hockey. Is Jagr better than pominville over all as a player if you put them head to head, yes. Jagr is a future hall of famer and i doubt pommers is. Jagr was great, but right now I would rather have pominville and the steady 2-way game he bring to a team that has experimented with "vets" coming in for leadership and the skills they bring and none of them have panned out. Summary: His 3 years of non NHL play, Smaller ice, Tighter defense than when he left, Age 39, Decline in production prior to leaving. Pominville I think just has more to offer and Jagr isn't getting younger. As far as the original thing which was top 25 RW, I am not sure Pommers belongs in that conversation, but a guy who hasnt played in the NHL in 3 years definitely does not. If he comes back and lights everyone up and drops a 70-80pt season than awesome, but I am feeling more like a 50-60pt vibe from him and I can get that from Pommers and also the pk, pp skills he brings. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION. I understand Jagr is a great hockey player and am not bashing him in any way, shape, or form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I don't think anyone is claiming he is the Jagr of 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. But, since we're having hypothetical summer dog day discussions, and the question is whether I'd rather have Pommer on his current contract or Jagr on his current contract, my answer is Jagr. I would love to see Jagr on the half-wall on the Sabres' power play with Vanek in front, Leino on the other side and Erhoff and Sekera on the points. hold up, the conversation was who is the better rw. If you wanna talk contracts then I would need time to think about what Pommers is worth and then jagr in turn (worth meaning $$$$) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I don't think anyone is claiming he is the Jagr of 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago. But, since we're having hypothetical summer dog day discussions, and the question is whether I'd rather have Pommer on his current contract or Jagr on his current contract, my answer is Jagr. I would love to see Jagr on the half-wall on the Sabres' power play with Vanek in front, Leino on the other side and Erhoff and Sekera on the points. Jagr will be an expensive specialist in Philly. But I could see ---- 20g 25a and a -20. On a Buffalo on a team without Pomminstein 15g 20a -10. I'd keep Pommer. (full disclosure - I never really liked the idea of Jagr as a teammate. I'm not convinced he could be happy in a reduced role either ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Jagr will be an expensive specialist in Philly. But I could see ---- 20g 25a and a -20. On a Buffalo on a team without Pomminstein 15g 20a -10. I'd keep Pommer. (full disclosure - I never really liked the idea of Jagr as a teammate. I'm not convinced he could be happy in a reduced role either ) I agree with the general thought but Jagr would have to be shooting pucks into his own goal to be a minus-20 on that team ... they will be pretty good and his worst NHL +/- is a minus-5 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree with the general thought but Jagr would have to be shooting pucks into his own goal to be a minus-20 on that team ... they will be pretty good and his worst NHL +/- is a minus-5 ... Just a guess, but my thinking is that his legs just aren't there for 2-way duty. Lavi plays the Left Wing Lock with two fore-checkers...I'm not sure where you put Jagr on a regular shift...nor do I expect Philly to be as offensive minded. All of Richards, Carters, and Leino's assists aren't something I see Schenn, Simmonds, and Jagr making up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Just a guess, but my thinking is that his legs just aren't there for 2-way duty. Lavi plays the Left Wing Lock with two fore-checkers...I'm not sure where you put Jagr on a regular shift...nor do I expect Philly to be as offensive minded. All of Richards, Carters, and Leino's assists aren't something I see Schenn, Simmonds, and Jagr making up. +1 I dont know if its me but I think the flyers are in a lot of trouble. I dont see how they replace Carter and Richards. I dont think they will even make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 +1 I dont know if its me but I think the flyers are in a lot of trouble. I dont see how they replace Carter and Richards. I dont think they will even make the playoffs. Claude Giroux is still extremely good. He might even be better than Carter and Richards, and has the potential to be better. We'll see what happens when he's on he first line. A lot of the Flyers season will hang on the prospect of if opposing teams can shut Giroux down. But now Philly has fewer players to shut down. Schenn has some ridiculous talent too, but it is early days for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Just a guess, but my thinking is that his legs just aren't there for 2-way duty. Lavi plays the Left Wing Lock with two fore-checkers...I'm not sure where you put Jagr on a regular shift...nor do I expect Philly to be as offensive minded. All of Richards, Carters, and Leino's assists aren't something I see Schenn, Simmonds, and Jagr making up. +1 I dont know if its me but I think the flyers are in a lot of trouble. I dont see how they replace Carter and Richards. I dont think they will even make the playoffs. They still have a pretty solid defense and now a real goalie ... I am not saying they are as good as last season, but minus-20 is REALLY bad ... even on his mediocre islanders or Canes teams Laviolette never had a guy minus-20. EDIT: I still don't think Jagr will be minus-20, but about Philly ... I have no idea what their defensive depth is like in their system, but I can't imagine they get as lucky with injuries again this season. last year they had FIVE d-men play 81 or more games, including a 35-year old and a 39-year old. Only Pronger missed more than ONE game. That can't happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 They still have a pretty solid defense and now a real goalie ... I am not saying they are as good as last season, but minus-20 is REALLY bad ... even on his mediocre islanders or Canes teams Laviolette never had a guy minus-20. EDIT: I still don't think Jagr will be minus-20, but about Philly ... I have no idea what their defensive depth is like in their system, but I can't imagine they get as lucky with injuries again this season. last year they had FIVE d-men play 81 or more games, including a 35-year old and a 39-year old. Only Pronger missed more than ONE game. That can't happen again. I agree and I love Giroux he is going to be amazing. I think they have a gret first line and pretty solid defense. We will see if their new goalie can deal with the pressure. I still dont think they will make the playoffs. I feel that every team in the east got better in some way, and if i look at last years philly roster compared to this years I take last years every day of the week and twice on game days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 I agree and I love Giroux he is going to be amazing. I think they have a gret first line and pretty solid defense. We will see if their new goalie can deal with the pressure. I still dont think they will make the playoffs. I feel that every team in the east got better in some way, and if i look at last years philly roster compared to this years I take last years every day of the week and twice on game days. Just for fun, anyone want to rank and give a quick reason for your ranking of all the eastern teams. for example 15) Ottawa, they made no real improvements and I dont think their defense or their gt will hold up to the fury that Buffalo, Boston, Montreal or even Toronto will unleash on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FolignosJock Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Just for fun, anyone want to rank and give a quick reason for your ranking of all the eastern teams. for example 15) Ottawa, they made no real improvements and I dont think their defense or their gt will hold up to the fury that Buffalo, Boston, Montreal or even Toronto will unleash on them. I like this Idea using last seasons standings at the end of the regular season. 1 z - Washington- Upgraded goal tending, added veteran presence on the blue line 2 y - Philadelphia- Upgraded goaltending, got rid of two of their top six, added a grandpa that hasnt played in three years 3 y - Boston- Won The Cup, lost recchi, lost some other role players, another year of maturity for tyler and he was scary good at times in the playoffs if he finds consistency this year I'm worried 4 x - Pittsburgh- Malkin and Crosby hopefully return healthy 5 x - Tampa Bay- Didn't really do much 6 x - Montréal- Erik Cole was an underrated pick up, I love his game 7 x - Buffalo- Ehrhoff, Leino, no connolly, roy healty all season(fingers crossed), a real backup goalie, Regehr AWESOME 8 x - NY Rangers- Added richards and kept their main pieces 9 Carolina- Kaberle and Stewart arent bad, I dont think they got better though probably a push 10 Toronto- The got Tim Connolly, they must be the cup favorite 11 New Jersey- I have no idea what this franchise is doing besides ruining the end of brodeurs career 12 Atlanta- Who? 13 Ottawa- They suck still 14 NY Islanders- A pretty decent team down the stretch but young. Another year will def help. Reasoner is a decent pick up. 15 Florida- Got campbell and jovanovski to help out their defense. I think bergenheim is a bust but if he can play like he did in the playoffs(he cant) he is a huge addition. Also scottie upshall, they wont finish in last this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted July 28, 2011 Report Share Posted July 28, 2011 Well, that cuts both ways ... why do you think Jagr is better now? The last time they were both in the NHL (2007-08), Pominville was the better player. He had more points, killed penalties (which Jagr doesn't do) and was a far better two-way player. Add in the pouting that Jagr used to bring, and I'd have taken Pommer. Granted, he has not been as productive since then, but the other elements of his game are still there. I doubt Jagr is going to suddenly become so much more productive at 38 ... he might be a nice toy have for your power play, but Pominville is still bringing more to the table. Yikes..Jagr going to the net after Erhoff puts the shot on the goaltenders pad, with Vanek already there. Now there is a real load to handle for Mr. Pronger.Just thinking about that much beef and those two sets of hands (Vanek and Yagr's) together in the slot sends chills down my spine.Or better yet Swap them, put Yagr in front and Vanek outside.(Yagr is so much harder to move) Fantasy is a wonderfull thing but what do you do with him for the other 50 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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