[OT] Jim and Pam to be married at the Falls!

[PASabreFan]

http://www.buffalonews.com/258/story/757795.html?imw=Y

 

But the executive producer of "The Office" says the Canadian side is "very dramatic," a hint that perhaps they will be married on that side.

 

Both Falls are very dramatic of course, but which side is more dramatic? Been a long time since I was there.

 

Anyway, this got me to looking at the Falls on Google Earth. A few questions:

 

1. One of the islands near the American Falls is Robinson Island. They might just be outcroppings of rocks or something geographic in nature, but on the Falls side of the island, there is a circular arrangement of white objects. What are they? You can't actually go onto the island, can you?

 

2. Pardon this Pennsyltuckian's ignorance of Buffalo area waterways, but does the Niagara River split to go around Grand Island? Or does the Niagara River go one way with the other way called something else?

 

3. I always thought the arena sat on Lake Erie. But that's the Buffalo River, eh?

 

Of course I could look this up, but I thought some of you might enjoy edumacating me.

[North Buffalo]

The Niagra River splits around Grand Island, yes, but the falls are further downstream. They actually split around Goat Island and the three sisters. The Horseshoe Falls, otherwise known as the Canadian Falls, go between goat Island and the Canadian side and the American Falls go between Goat Island and the town of Niagra Falls. Goat Island is a NY State Park and yes you can drive out on it, take a walk down to the Cave of the Wind and go right to the edge of the falls. Also there are Pedestrian Brides connecting Goat Island to the Three Sisters. You can stand right near the edge of the falls and sort of look down through the railings. It is pretty intense.

 

The Canadian side provides a more encompassing but more touristy view of the falls. As I said the American side is a State Park, more raw with a little more open space. Depends on what you want and what you are interested in. I will need to find my photos of some of my excursions there and put them up on-line to give you sense.

 

P.S. From both sides you can take a ride on the Maid of Mist which takes you right up into the middle of the Horseshoe or Canadian falls. It is pretty intense. P.S. If you need a photographer let me know. Sincerely, Fischer Williams Photographic Studios... www.fischerwilliamsphoto.com I still visit there often.

 

3. The Arena does sit on the edge of Lake Erie where the Buffalo River enters the lake just above the entrance to the Niagra River. They are pretty close to each other. Buffalo itself sits at the end of the Lake and stretches down the River for a little ways and its suburbs stretch all the way the way to the City of Niagra Falls, NY.

[ExiledInIllinois]

3. I always thought the arena sat on Lake Erie. But that's the Buffalo River, eh?

 

Of course I could look this up, but I thought some of you might enjoy edumacating me.

 

It is on the river... But it is damn close to the lake (and the ship canal) My father worked on the railroad and would work coal cars at the foot of Erie Street (now Erie Basin Marina/Hatch/etc..)... It was and elevated set-up where the cars would come in like a roller coaster and switch to the other track... My father sad if you miss judged one would have to ditch/jump into the mouth of the river/lake (inner harbor) from up high! I am pretty sure that area is all man-made... Being that BFLO was competing with Black Rock (separate city in the early 1800's) to get the terminus of the canal... And they did.

 

Little known fact why the harbor was created with inner and outer breakwaters... Before them in the 1800's a seiche (think tsunami on an inland lake... Or "slosh" like getting out of a bath tub... Usually caused by a strong low pressure system) hit the area and that area around where the Aud and HSBC is was put under with about 10 feet of water... It was a rather seedy shipping/red-light district with many poorly constructed houses and whatnot... People where swept away and killed/drowned in their sleep!

[ExiledInIllinois]

2. Pardon this Pennsyltuckian's ignorance of Buffalo area waterways, but does the Niagara River split to go around Grand Island? Or does the Niagara River go one way with the other way called something else?

 

Of course I could look this up, but I thought some of you might enjoy edumacating me.

 

Sorry for going in reverse order PA... Hope it doesn't piss you off! :nana:

 

The Niagara is NOT really a river... Even know it is called that... It is really a spillway between two lakes... :nana:

 

Like NBFLO said... It does split around GI... The east river and the west river (Canadian side)... At the head (the mouth is where the lower river spills into Lake Ontario below the Falls) of the river and by the Peace Bridge you have the upper river (till you get to the Falls)... That area has rapids and is shallow in spots and drops about 5 feet in a rather short distance... The Black Rock Channel/canal isolates itself from the river and the rapids... Allows the Black Rock Lock to gently lower vessels down that 5 feet into the portion of the upper river that is naturally deeper before and around Grand Island. Then it meets back up again after GI and goes over the falls 300 or so feet down to the lower gorge river. After the upper rapids and through the Black Rock Lock, ships, tows w/barges, sailboats and other not so easily handled/slow craft can navigate the river around GI and smaller craft can pick up the Erie Canal in Tonawanda (along the east side of Grand Isalnd). The curent is still swift in the middle of the channel of the upper river at about 15-20 mph... Faster, low draft craft like powerboats can bypass the Black Rock Channel and navigate the upper rapids (with caution of course!) Yet, to go up stream towards Lake Erie, that craft has to at least be faster than the current to make headway up. ONE RULE OF THUMB IF YOU ARE EVER IN A SMALL BOAT AND ON THE UPPER RAPIDS AROUND THE PEACE BRIDGE IS: NEVER STEARN ANCHOR!

[MattPie]

The Canadian side probably has the better views which would make it better for TV. PA, since you've been looking at the overhead views, you'll notice that there really isn't a place on the US side to look *at* the falls, but you do get to stand right on the edge. On the Canadian side, there's a park along the edge of the cliff with a railing. You can walk from the Rainbow bridge all the way up to the edge of the horseshoe falls with an unobstructed view. I like the US side since it is a little more rustic.

 

It so happens that I was up there a few weeks ago and took some pics. Everything is from the Canadian side. I should have stopped on the US side, the rapids were a brilliant blue color in the sun. The guy I was riding with was ready to get to the hotel though, so we didn't stop.

 

Pics:

http://www.pourdecisions.org/yappa-ng/index.php?album=%2Fpie%2FMoto%2F2009-Ontario%2F&page=1

(only the first 9 are applicable to Niagara Falls)

[SDS]

The Canadian side probably has the better views which would make it better for TV. PA, since you've been looking at the overhead views, you'll notice that there really isn't a place on the US side to look *at* the falls, but you do get to stand right on the edge. On the Canadian side, there's a park along the edge of the cliff with a railing. You can walk from the Rainbow bridge all the way up to the edge of the horseshoe falls with an unobstructed view. I like the US side since it is a little more rustic.

 

It so happens that I was up there a few weeks ago and took some pics. Everything is from the Canadian side. I should have stopped on the US side, the rapids were a brilliant blue color in the sun. The guy I was riding with was ready to get to the hotel though, so we didn't stop.

 

Pics:

http://www.pourdecisions.org/yappa-ng/index.php?album=%2Fpie%2FMoto%2F2009-Ontario%2F&page=1

(only the first 9 are applicable to Niagara Falls)

 

 

Waaaay TMI....

[cdexchange]

Waaaay TMI....

 

 

:lol:

[thesportsbuff]

huge fan of the show

 

excited about this info

[PASabreFan]

Waaaay TMI....

 

Poor guy never had a chance.

 

Good replies everyone. Thanks.

[Bmwolf21]

Sorry for going in reverse order PA... Hope it doesn't piss you off! :nana:

 

The Niagara is NOT really a river... Even know it is called that... It is really a spillway between two lakes... :nana:

 

Like NBFLO said... It does split around GI... The east river and the west river (Canadian side)... At the head (the mouth is where the lower river spills into Lake Ontario below the Falls) of the river and by the Peace Bridge you have the upper river (till you get to the Falls)... That area has rapids and is shallow in spots and drops about 5 feet in a rather short distance... The Black Rock Channel/canal isolates itself from the river and the rapids... Allows the Black Rock Lock to gently lower vessels down that 5 feet into the portion of the upper river that is naturally deeper before and around Grand Island. Then it meets back up again after GI and goes over the falls 300 or so feet down to the lower gorge river. After the upper rapids and through the Black Rock Lock, ships, tows w/barges, sailboats and other not so easily handled/slow craft can navigate the river around GI and smaller craft can pick up the Erie Canal in Tonawanda (along the east side of Grand Isalnd). The curent is still swift in the middle of the channel of the upper river at about 15-20 mph... Faster, low draft craft like powerboats can bypass the Black Rock Channel and navigate the upper rapids (with caution of course!) Yet, to go up stream towards Lake Erie, that craft has to at least be faster than the current to make headway up. ONE RULE OF THUMB IF YOU ARE EVER IN A SMALL BOAT AND ON THE UPPER RAPIDS AROUND THE PEACE BRIDGE IS: NEVER STEARN ANCHOR!

Good stuff, although I've never referred to the area around the Peace Bridge as the Upper Rapids, nor have I ever seen it referred to as such. I was always under the impression that the Upper Rapids was the area just south of the Goat Island/Niagara State Park area (between the North end of Grand Island and the brink of the Falls) while the Lower Rapids are the ones in the Gorge and Whirlpool areas.

 

I've also seen the Niagara River called a strait, but not a spillway.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Good stuff, although I've never referred to the area around the Peace Bridge as the Upper Rapids, nor have I ever seen it referred to as such. I was always under the impression that the Upper Rapids was the area just south of the Goat Island/Niagara State Park area (between the North end of Grand Island and the brink of the Falls) while the Lower Rapids are the ones in the Gorge and Whirlpool areas.

 

I've also seen the Niagara River called a strait, but not a spillway.

 

Good points... I over estimated the river/flow speed... It is about 10 miles per hour. I knew somebody would bring this up... The rapids right next to the falls are the middle (as in upper river) rapids or the cascade rapids.

 

SIDE BAR:

Interesting fact on why the Chicago and Calumet Rivers (where I work) can flow out towards the MS... Is the elevation of the river bed is about the same as the bottom of the Niagara River. At one time, Chicago was at a continental divide and the MS further east which enabled the retreating glaciers to melt towards the Gulf (outlet)... Until Lake Michigan got too low and that out flow land area area became higer.

 

If there were no rapids around the Peace Bridge you wouldn't need the Black Rock Channel... It is very shallow at the head of the river and drops off rather quickly over that distance (say Ferry Street to say Hertel Avenue)... And righly so... That is where the lake funnels in and goes over an escarpment (you can't see it) that runs right along Main Street! Notice the rock cut when you are on the 290 in Amherst/Williamsville (right where it splits off from 90 past Cleveland Drive...)

 

Here is a little more... I am terrible at written word, as you know I tend to write as I speak! :bag: :

 

Niagara Frontier

 

THE UPPER NIAGARA RIVER:

 

The upper Niagara River extends 35 kilometers (22 miles) from Lake Erie downstream to the Cascade Rapids. The Cascade Rapids begins 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) upstream of the Horseshoe Falls. Niagara Falls.

 

The maximum width of the Niagara River is 2580 meters (8500 feet) at Buffalo/Fort Erie. The river width narrows to approximately 460 meters (1500 feet) at Squaw Island located below the Peace Bridge. Water flowing past the Peace Bridge can attain a speed of 8.18 miles per hour.

 

Downstream of Squaw Island, the river widens to approximately 610 meters (2000 feet) at a speed of 3.4 miles per hour.

 

From Lake Erie to Strawberry Island which is located 8 kilometers (5 miles) downstream of Lake Erie, the river elevation drops six (6) feet.

 

At Grand Island, the river divides into the west channel (known as the Chippawa Channel) and the east channel (known as the American or Tonawanda Channel).

 

Grand Island, located upstream from the Horseshoe Falls, has an area of 70 square kilometers (27 square miles). It is the largest of the islands along the Niagara River.

 

The Chippawa Channel is approximately 17.7 kilometers (11 miles) in length and varies in width from 460 meters (2000 feet) to 1220 meters (4000 feet). Velocity of the water flow is averages 2 miles per hour. This Chippawa Channel carries 60% of the total river flow.

 

The Tonawanda Channel is 24 kilometers (15 miles) in length and varies in width from 460 meters (1500 feet) to 610 meters (2000 feet) in width. Velocity of the water flow averages 2 miles per hour.

 

At the north end of Grand Island, both the Chippawa and Tonawanda Channels merge to form the 4.8 kilometer (3 mile long) Chippawa - Grass Island Pool. The long term elevation of this pool is 171.16 meters (561.55 feet) above sea level. At the downstream end of the Chippawa - Grass Island Pool is the International Niagara Control Dam.

 

The International Niagara Control Dam is located approximately 1370 meters (4500 feet) upstream of the Horseshoe Falls. It has eighteen (18) control gates which are lifted or lowered in order to control the amount of water that flows over the Falls and to regulate the water level in the Chippawa - Grass Island Pool for hydro diversion.

 

Water is diverted from the Chippawa - Grass Island Pool for hydro-electric power generation. Approximately 123,490 - 162,000 cubic feet of water per second is diverted. This water feeds the following hydro-electric generating stations:

 

1. Sir Adam Beck Power Generating Station #1 & #2

2. Niagara Power Generating Station (Robert Moses)

3. Canadian Niagara Generating Station (Rankine Plant)

 

 

The water diverted for the Sir Adam Beck and Robert Moses power stations is returned to the Niagara River at Queenston - Lewiston.

 

The water diverted for the Canadian Niagara Generating Station is returned to the Maid of the Mist plunge pool at the base of the Horseshoe Falls.

 

From Lake Erie to the Chippawa - Grass Island Pool the river bed drops 2.7 meters (9 feet) in elevation.

 

The maximum depth of the upper Niagara River is 12 meters (41 feet) at the International Railroad Bridge in Buffalo/Fort Erie.

 

There are eight major islands in the Upper Niagara River. They are: (in order from Lake Erie to Niagara Falls)

 

1) Squaw Island (American)

2) Strawberry Island (American)

3) Beaver Island (American) - 40 acres

4) Grand Island (American) - 17,381 acres

5) Tonawanda Island (American)

6) Buckhorn Island (American) - 146 acres

7) Navy Island (Canadian) - 316 acres

8) Goat Island (American) - 70 acres

 

 

 

One has to remember that there are basically THREE major escarpments that run through the WNY/S.ONT/and even in to the MI (Michigan) area. One is where the Boston hills (say Springville, Kissing Bridge area) are, the other right along Main Street (hence these rapids just north of the Peace Bridge) and the big one: The Niagara Escarpment that the Falls go over.

 

Not that I am geologist... Yet think of the region as layers turned at an angle up towards PA. The reason the lake moves and turns itself over every 7 years... Like a giant slow moving, wide river that whole lake becomes! One reason I am not too keen on swimming in parts of Lake Erie at certain times (weather patterns) with young children! I really don't have as much fear with say Lake Michigan outside of the Indiana Shores area.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Oh:

 

I know it will be a long time... :nana: But in many, many thousands of years... The Falls will be nothing but rapids outside of where present day BFLO/Ft. Erie is today.

[ExiledInIllinois]

BM, let me clarify why the Niagara River is not really a strait, but a "spillway." Hope this helps and you can visualize the region and what is going on underneath all the human development. Picture and take away all the human development... Even stripping away trees and what not down to the ground elevation and you get this:

 

As you know I am a lock and dam operator by trade and another point that can be made about the Niagara River is that at the Falls everything is like one big dam! You really don't see the dam in the sense of what you think of a dam tradtionally and there are no locks for navigation to bypass it in that immediate area... Except on the upper reaches of the spillway at Black Rock (used to be a big black rock formation there and of course has since been removed going back to the 1800's!)... Of course the navigation canal for vessels going from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario is of course further west on the Niagara pennisula and is the Welland Canal.

 

Really what you see is the spillway (river and Falls) of the dam (escarpment)... Think of it as a spillway for a tradition say earthen dam... Except in the Niagara region's case everything else is basically hidden... You do have the Niagara Escaprment that reveals some of the hidden principles... Again the whole escparpment area is like one big natural dam that historically flowed though the natural spillway, IE: The Falls. Now with modern engineering they can literally shut the falls (American side and greatly reduce the Horseshoe) off by diverting the water through the underground culverts/res' (IE: power plants) and back into the lower river.

 

Remember what I said about the geology of the region being layered and then all angled up...

 

Cuesta Schematic

 

Imagine if the geology of the region wasn't angled up! We may have had one giant inland freshwater (and shallow) sea!!! ??

 

Does this clarify why it is a spillway and not a strait? I am sure to have a strait, they have to have the same elevation on both ends??? Like the Straits of Mackinac between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron (same elevation above sea level). You can kinda say that at Detroit, it is kind of a "hybrid" between a strait and spillway (x2: Detroit River on the North and St. Clair River on the south) since Lake St. Clair (yet Lake St. Clair can't be the strait because it is not narrow and looks like a small lake!) is in the middle at a set elevation. You got Lake Huron and Michigan at roughly 579' (579.48 mean sea level, 1929) above sea level then Huron drops 6 feet to Lake St. Clair via the Detroit, then another 3 feet to Lake Erie via the St. Clair.

 

 

I am bored!! Kinda job related too!!

 

:D :D

[Bmwolf21]

Good stuff, and thanks. I grew up on Niagara Falls and don't think we ever got this kind of education about the local waterways and the area's biggest tourist attraction.

BM, let me clarify why the Niagara River is not really a strait, but a "spillway."

You should probably email this to the people at the link you provided in the previous reply. They call it a strait about a quarter of the way down:

 

The Niagara River is a narrow passage of water joining two larger bodies of water and is actually a "strait".

 

A river is an outlet for a drainage area ordinarily called the river basin. Tributaries flow towards it and it is the means by which the whole region between water-sheds is drained. The Niagara River is not like this. It is not located between water-sheds and drains no large area. It receives no rivers of importance. For this reason it may be properly called a strait connecting two inland bodies of water.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Good stuff, and thanks. I grew up on Niagara Falls and don't think we ever got this kind of education about the local waterways and the area's biggest tourist attraction.

 

You should probably email this to the people at the link you provided in the previous reply. They call it a strait about a quarter of the way down:

 

The Niagara River is a narrow passage of water joining two larger bodies of water and is actually a "strait".

 

A river is an outlet for a drainage area ordinarily called the river basin. Tributaries flow towards it and it is the means by which the whole region between water-sheds is drained. The Niagara River is not like this. It is not located between water-sheds and drains no large area. It receives no rivers of importance. For this reason it may be properly called a strait connecting two inland bodies of water.

 

I noticed that too! No, you are right... I just have a hard time with it! I know my argument is long winded and rambling yet to sum things up easily... I still contend that a strait should have the same elevation on both ends... Or at least very close to it!

 

Does my spillway (really natural spillway) make sense to you??... Because that is what the Niagara is... I have a hard time with a strait being the Niagara... That is why I sighted Detroit being a "hybrid"... Detroit in French means "strait"... I can't think of anywhere else that has straits and has such big varying elevations. Maybe around the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie)... But again, that is kinda like Detroit... And the Soo is about a 5 drop too.

 

What I am saying is that Niagara is truly unique and needs a better term!

 

I still contend "spillway" is better because that is what the water is actually doing in relation to the surrounding land.

[SwampD]

I noticed that too! No, you are right... I just have a hard time with it! I know my argument is long winded and rambling yet to sum things up easily... I still contend that a strait should have the same elevation on both ends... Or at least very close to it!

 

Does my spillway (really natural spillway) make sense to you??... Because that is what the Niagara is... I have a hard time with a strait being the Niagara... That is why I sighted Detroit being a "hybrid"... Detroit in French means "strait"... I can't think of anywhere else that has straits and has such big varying elevations. Maybe around the Soo (Sault Ste. Marie)... But again, that is kinda like Detroit... And the Soo is about a 5 drop too.

 

What I am saying is that Niagara is truly unique and needs a better term!

 

I still contend "spillway" is better because that is what the water is actually doing in relation to the surrounding land.

I also think that anywhere else in the world they would be called seas. I think that would be cool,"Buffalo is a coastal town on The Sea of Erie." That would get Bass Pro shop to get off their a$$.

[ExiledInIllinois]

I also think that anywhere else in the world they would be called seas. I think that would be cool,"Buffalo is a coastal town on The Sea of Erie." That would get Bass Pro shop to get off their a$$.

 

At one time there was... According to some, where I am sitting at home now was a vast inland sea.

[FogBat]

At one time there was... According to some, where I am sitting at home now was a vast inland sea.

Maybe we need another global 40-day flood to fix things... :unsure:

[ExiledInIllinois]

Maybe we need another global 40-day flood to fix things... :unsure:

 

What are you trying to say Cross? ;) ;)

 

I am a very, very strong swimmer!

 

:nana:

[FogBat]

What are you trying to say Cross? ;) ;)

 

I am a very, very strong swimmer!

 

:nana:

Unless you know anything about Noah's Ark, don't worry about it. It'll wash us all over.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Unless you know anything about Noah's Ark, don't worry about it. It'll wash us all over.

 

Oh... I was just making a joke. I know I have been posting a lot here and getting on a lot of nerves with the quantity. <_< Thanks Pat Kane, I wasn't planning on coming here to at least exhibition season.