Brodeur NHL's best goalie?

[hopeleslyobvious]

I was listening to Home Ice on XM today and they were interviewing Zach Pairse from the Devils. I don't remember the exact quote, but he said something along the lines of "Brodeur by far is the best goalie in the game."

 

Honestly, I think Mr. Parise is being a bit of a homer. Don't get me wrong Brodeur is a great goalie, but I just don't see him as the best anymore.

 

Yes Brodeur has good stats, but they have to be taken in context. He plays on a defensive minded team that is very happy to just sit back on a 1 goal lead and help him out. This has been the case for his whole career. I just don't see him being able to put up numbers like that with a team playing a more wide open style. Also, I would like to think that the "best goalie in the game" could put up better numbers than that playing on a trapping team. Thoughts?

[matter2003]

I have never considered Brodeur to be the best goalie in the league. He plays great in big games(is, playoffs), but game in and game out, I think he is merely good, not great. I believe that if Brodeur played in our system, his GAA and save percentage would be worse than Miller's...

 

Conversely, if Miller played in their system, he might get a shutout every other night...

[hopeleslyobvious]

I have never considered Brodeur to be the best goalie in the league. He plays great in big games(is, playoffs), but game in and game out, I think he is merely good, not great. I believe that if Brodeur played in our system, his GAA and save percentage would be worse than Miller's...

 

Conversely, if Miller played in their system, he might get a shutout every other night...

 

Miller had a better SV% last season than Brodeur. I think SV% while not perfect is the best stat for comparing goalies. GAA can get skewed very easily depending on the number of shots allowed.

[ThePolishSabre]

Answer is NO. Reason, NJ Devils and their stupid ass trap system they played.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

Brodeur is a Beast of a goalie, will play injured, will play 100 games a year, Makes some very big saves, but he is also capable of having off nights, like any goalie............Great at handling the puck as well........... :beer:

[inkman]

Obviously, Elias is biased but I think the consensus is that Luongo is the man.

[sabregoats]

Miller had a better SV% last season than Brodeur. I think SV% while not perfect is the best stat for comparing goalies. GAA can get skewed very easily depending on the number of shots allowed.

I have always viewed GAA as more of a team statistic and never really understood why that is the big goalie stat. Save % seems like a much fairer comparison, as only the goalie faces the shots, but if the defense limits the shots then the GAA will be lower.

[deluca67]

Miller had a better SV% last season than Brodeur. I think SV% while not perfect is the best stat for comparing goalies. GAA can get skewed very easily depending on the number of shots allowed.

 

Huh :blink:

 

SV% is the worst stat for comparing goalies. It is the SV% that gets skewed when teams just start throwing pucks to the net.

 

Last night the Habs had 33 shots. Most of which seemed to be harmless shots from the outside.

 

If you make a list of goalies you don't want to play at their best? Then Brodeur and Hasek and still #1 and #2. I may be selling short some of the goalies from the West. I just havn't seen enough of them yet.

[PASabreFan]

 

Huh :blink:

 

SV% is the worst stat for comparing goalies. It is the SV% that gets skewed when teams just start throwing pucks to the net.

 

Last night the Habs had 33 shots. Most of which seemed to be harmless shots from the outside.

 

If you make a list of goalies you don't want to play at their best? Then Brodeur and Hasek and still #1 and #2. I may be selling short some of the goalies from the West. I just havn't seen enough of them yet.

 

It's too bad the league doesn't make "scoring chance" a stat category. That would be fascinating to look at.

 

But I think hopeles has a point (write down the date :)). Detroit allows the fewest shots per game, and New Jersey is fourth. Dom leads the league in GAA but is 18th in save percentage, below Miller even.

 

Deluca, I like the idea of throwing out numbers and going by common sense and observation, but how many games do you watch? You admit you haven't seen much of the West. So we are left with numbers. Is there a better stat to compare goalies than save percentage? Probably not.

 

As for goalies who are the best "at their best"... when does a goalie have to be at his best in the regular season? Shootouts? Dom has allowed four goals on six shots. Brodeur is better, but behind Miller, who, by the way, is not the best goalie in shootouts. Depietro and Lundqvist are better. So are a couple others who haven't faced as many shootouts as Ryan.

 

When does a goalie have to be at his best in the playoffs? Every minute. And both Brodeur and Hasek have shown they can deliver championships. Miller has a long way to go before even being mentioned in the same breath.

[deluca67]

It's too bad the league doesn't make "scoring chance" a stat category. That would be fascinating to look at.

 

But I think hopeles has a point (write down the date :)). Detroit allows the fewest shots per game, and New Jersey is fourth. Dom leads the league in GAA but is 18th in save percentage, below Miller even.

 

Deluca, I like the idea of throwing out numbers and going by common sense and observation, but how many games do you watch? You admit you haven't seen much of the West. So we are left with numbers. Is there a better stat to compare goalies than save percentage? Probably not.

 

As for goalies who are the best "at their best"... when does a goalie have to be at his best in the regular season? Shootouts? Dom has allowed four goals on six shots. Brodeur is better, but behind Miller, who, by the way, is not the best goalie in shootouts. Depietro and Lundqvist are better. So are a couple others who haven't faced as many shootouts as Ryan.

 

When does a goalie have to be at his best in the playoffs? Every minute. And both Brodeur and Hasek have shown they can deliver championships. Miller has a long way to go before even being mentioned in the same breath.

 

GAA! It's all that matters.

 

If you want to discount a stat. I suggest SV% and Wins go out first.

 

SV%? A team can have 30 shots in a game and only have 4-5 "scoring chances".

 

Wins? A goalie can have a gaa of over three but if his teams gives him 4.5 goals a game? I think that tells you something.

 

To put it in it's simplest form. Nobody asks how many they stopped. They only care about how many they don't.

 

The best example of this is Hasek. The Sabres gave up a ton of shots knowing teams couldn't score on Hasek. His record setting gaa is what won him a bunch of Vezinas and the Hart Trophy.

[X. Benedict]

Brodeur probably has the best kick save in the game.

What is really amazing is when he makes a kick save outlet pass to start the rush.

 

I think he is one of the best.

 

As for GAA vs. Save % who knows?

 

A goaltender with out support can make 3 consecutive point blank saves and have the 4th tucked in.

Save percentage = 75%.

 

I tend to think wins are under-rated when evaluating goalies.

[hopeleslyobvious]

GAA! It's all that matters.

 

If you want to discount a stat. I suggest SV% and Wins go out first.

 

SV%? A team can have 30 shots in a game and only have 4-5 "scoring chances".

 

Wins? A goalie can have a gaa of over three but if his teams gives him 4.5 goals a game? I think that tells you something.

 

To put it in it's simplest form. Nobody asks how many they stopped. They only care about how many they don't.

 

The best example of this is Hasek. The Sabres gave up a ton of shots knowing teams couldn't score on Hasek. His record setting gaa is what won him a bunch of Vezinas and the Hart Trophy.

 

How can you say GAA is a better stat than SV% for comparing 2 goalies? There can be a huge discrepancy in the number of shots faced. For example, let's compare the Buffalo Detroit game this year. Miller and Dom both had a 1.86 GAA for the game. However, Miller faced 43 shots and Dom faced 17. Miller faced well more than twice as many shots yet gave up the same amount of goals. But according to GAA, they played equally that game.

 

Right now Miller faces roughly 31-32 shots a game. Hasek faces 20-21 a game. If a goalie lets in a goal every 12 shots, that will give him a .913 SV% which is pretty good in today's NHL. Statistically speaking a good goalie is going to give up 1 more goal per game playing for Buffalo than he will playing for Detroit.

 

Yes, SV% does have it's flaws, but it is a much better stat for comparing goalies on different teams than GAA.

 

EDIT: I would also like to note that Brodeur has been much more inconsistent since the departure of the Scotts.

[Bmwolf21]

Agreed, X. There is a huge difference between giving up 3 goals on 20 shots (Marty) and 3 goals on 40 shots (Ryan, Dom) IMO....

[deluca67]

How can you say GAA is a better stat than SV% for comparing 2 goalies? There can be a huge discrepancy in the number of shots faced. For example, let's compare the Buffalo Detroit game this year. Miller and Dom both had a 1.86 GAA for the game. However, Miller faced 43 shots and Dom faced 17. Miller faced well more than twice as many shots yet gave up the same amount of goals. But according to GAA, they played equally that game.

 

Right now Miller faces roughly 31-32 shots a game. Hasek faces 20-21 a game. If a goalie lets in a goal every 12 shots, that will give him a .913 SV% which is pretty good in today's NHL. Statistically speaking a good goalie is going to give up 1 more goal per game playing for Buffalo than he will playing for Detroit.

 

Yes, SV% does have it's flaws, but it is a much better stat for comparing goalies on different teams than GAA.

 

EDIT: I would also like to note that Brodeur has been much more inconsistent since the departure of the Scotts.

 

Because the game is decided by goals not shots on net or saves.

 

Saying Miller faced 43 shots or Hasek faced 17 doesn't say anything about the quality of the shots. Again, like last night. The Habs had 33 shots. Most of which came from the outside and were easy saves. When you clear the puck down the ice and it goes right to the goalie. It's a shot on net.

 

No stat is the be all end all or tells the complete story. It's a mix of all the stats that paints the picture. For me. I lean towards gaa to tell me which are the better goalies. ;)

[hopeleslyobvious]

Because the game is decided by goals not shots on net or saves.

 

Saying Miller faced 43 shots or Hasek faced 17 doesn't say anything about the quality of the shots. Again, like last night. The Habs had 33 shots. Most of which came from the outside and were easy saves. When you clear the puck down the ice and it goes right to the goalie. It's a shot on net.

 

No stat is the be all end all or tells the complete story. It's a mix of all the stats that paints the picture. For me. I lean towards gaa to tell me which are the better goalies. ;)

 

Yes, SV% does not give you a picture on the quality of shots. However GAA does not give you a picture as to the number or quality of shots.

 

When we're talking about who won or lost a game, yes Goals against is an important stat. But as mentioned above, it's more of a team stat. GAA doesn't take into account an average goalie playing for a team that plays a very defensive style. SV% doesn't compensate for it perfectly, but does a better job.

 

EDIT: If you clear the puck down the ice and it goes to the goalie, it IS NOT a shot on net. It would only count as a shot on net if it went in.

[Taro T]

Yes, SV% does not give you a picture on the quality of shots. However GAA does not give you a picture as to the number or quality of shots.

 

When we're talking about who won or lost a game, yes Goals against is an important stat. But as mentioned above, it's more of a team stat. GAA doesn't take into account an average goalie playing for a team that plays a very defensive style. SV% doesn't compensate for it perfectly, but does a better job.

 

EDIT: If you clear the puck down the ice and it goes to the goalie, it IS NOT a shot on net. It would only count as a shot on net if it went in.

Unless you are playing in Boston, where pretty much anything thrown near the net counts as a shot for the home team. ;)

 

The various goaltending stats, when taken in aggregate, tell the story of how good the goalie is. If I had to choose a single stat to rank goalies on, it would be SV%, but it doesn't tell the whole story. A stat that would be interesting to see is SV% on scoring chances. I wouldn't just look at goals / scoring chance because a guy on a breakaway has a scoring chance whether he puts the puck on net or not.

 

Me, if I KNEW beforehand that I'd get Dom at the top of his game, I'd take him over Ryan. Because you don't know what Dom will give you, nor how many games he'd be injured, I absolutely prefer Ryan being the Sabres goalie today.

 

GAA! It's all that matters.

 

If you want to discount a stat. I suggest SV% and Wins go out first.

 

SV%? A team can have 30 shots in a game and only have 4-5 "scoring chances".

 

Wins? A goalie can have a gaa of over three but if his teams gives him 4.5 goals a game? I think that tells you something.

 

To put it in it's simplest form. Nobody asks how many they stopped. They only care about how many they don't.

 

The best example of this is Hasek. The Sabres gave up a ton of shots knowing teams couldn't score on Hasek. His record setting gaa is what won him a bunch of Vezinas and the Hart Trophy.

So Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the HoF?

 

Didn't Dom lead the league about 6 consecutive years on SV% and then miss winning the award the 1st year it was offered by ~4/1000th's?

 

Yeah, wins and SV% mean nothing. :doh:

[hopeleslyobvious]

Unless you are playing in Boston, where pretty much anything thrown near the net counts as a shot for the home team. ;)

 

The various goaltending stats, when taken in aggregate, tell the story of how good the goalie is. If I had to choose a single stat to rank goalies on, it would be SV%, but it doesn't tell the whole story. A stat that would be interesting to see is SV% on scoring chances. I wouldn't just look at goals / scoring chance because a guy on a breakaway has a scoring chance whether he puts the puck on net or not.

 

Me, if I KNEW beforehand that I'd get Dom at the top of his game, I'd take him over Ryan. Because you don't know what Dom will give you, nor how many games he'd be injured, I absolutely prefer Ryan being the Sabres goalie today.

So Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the HoF?

 

Didn't Dom lead the league about 6 consecutive years on SV% and then miss winning the award the 1st year it was offered by ~4/1000th's?

 

Yeah, wins and SV% mean nothing. :doh:

 

If I had the choice between Dom at the top of his game and Ryan, I would take Dom as well. However, today I would definitely take Miller. I don't know if Dom would put up similar stats if he faced as many shots as Ryan. Not to mention the age, injury history, etc.

[deluca67]

Unless you are playing in Boston, where pretty much anything thrown near the net counts as a shot for the home team. ;)

 

The various goaltending stats, when taken in aggregate, tell the story of how good the goalie is. If I had to choose a single stat to rank goalies on, it would be SV%, but it doesn't tell the whole story. A stat that would be interesting to see is SV% on scoring chances. I wouldn't just look at goals / scoring chance because a guy on a breakaway has a scoring chance whether he puts the puck on net or not.

 

Me, if I KNEW beforehand that I'd get Dom at the top of his game, I'd take him over Ryan. Because you don't know what Dom will give you, nor how many games he'd be injured, I absolutely prefer Ryan being the Sabres goalie today.

So Grant Fuhr doesn't belong in the HoF?

 

Didn't Dom lead the league about 6 consecutive years on SV% and then miss winning the award the 1st year it was offered by ~4/1000th's?

 

Yeah, wins and SV% mean nothing. :doh:

 

Wins are more of a reflection of the team. How many games did Dom lose while only giving up 1 or 2 goals? Goal support goes a long way.

 

I didn't say that SV% "means nothing". It is simply not as accurate a barometer of a goalie as GAA is.

 

Fuhr is one of my alltime favorites. His numbers may be a bit inflated by the fact he played in an era of wide open hockey where the average score was 6-5. His team mostly having the 6. Or on most night 7, 8 or 9 goals.

 

It is interesting that Miller is not in the top 10 in either GAA or SV%.

[hopeleslyobvious]

Wins are more of a reflection of the team. How many games did Dom lose while only giving up 1 or 2 goals? Goal support goes a long way.

 

I didn't say that SV% "means nothing". It is simply not as accurate a barometer of a goalie as GAA is.

 

Fuhr is one of my alltime favorites. His numbers may be a bit inflated by the fact he played in an era of wide open hockey where the average score was 6-5. His team mostly having the 6. Or on most night 7, 8 or 9 goals.

 

It is interesting that Miller is not in the top 10 in either GAA or SV%.

 

So you have a stat that is inaccurate because it doesn't account for the quality of shots. And you have another stat that doesn't account for the number of OR quality of shots. That means SV% has one problem, and GAA has that problem plus an additional problem, and yet GAA is more accurate?

 

How is wins a team stat and GAA not? Dom has a great GAA, but he faces just over 20 shots a game. A goalie with a SV% of .900 (which is the borderline for acceptable IMHO) should only allow 2 per game.

 

You're right, Miller is not in the top 10 in GAA or SV%. There is a very good reason why. The Sabres play a wide open system and he's left on his own a lot more than most goalies in the league. Put him on a team with a defensive system, and he moves into the top 5 in both guaranteed. By the way, while his SV% is not top 10 right now, he has the same SV% that he finished the year with last year, which was top 10. There are definitely goalies ahead of him who's stats will go down as they have more GP.

[DR HOLLIDAY]

So you have a stat that is inaccurate because it doesn't account for the quality of shots. And you have another stat that doesn't account for the number of OR quality of shots. That means SV% has one problem, and GAA has that problem plus an additional problem, and yet GAA is more accurate?

 

How is wins a team stat and GAA not? Dom has a great GAA, but he faces just over 20 shots a game. A goalie with a SV% of .900 (which is the borderline for acceptable IMHO) should only allow 2 per game.

 

You're right, Miller is not in the top 10 in GAA or SV%. There is a very good reason why. The Sabres play a wide open system and he's left on his own a lot more than most goalies in the league. Put him on a team with a defensive system, and he moves into the top 5 in both guaranteed. By the way, while his SV% is not top 10 right now, he has the same SV% that he finished the year with last year, which was top 10. There are definitely goalies ahead of him who's stats will go down as they have more GP.

 

Good points man, this is for you................... :beer:

[deluca67]

So you have a stat that is inaccurate because it doesn't account for the quality of shots. And you have another stat that doesn't account for the number of OR quality of shots. That means SV% has one problem, and GAA has that problem plus an additional problem, and yet GAA is more accurate?

 

How is wins a team stat and GAA not? Dom has a great GAA, but he faces just over 20 shots a game. A goalie with a SV% of .900 (which is the borderline for acceptable IMHO) should only allow 2 per game.

 

You're right, Miller is not in the top 10 in GAA or SV%. There is a very good reason why. The Sabres play a wide open system and he's left on his own a lot more than most goalies in the league. Put him on a team with a defensive system, and he moves into the top 5 in both guaranteed. By the way, while his SV% is not top 10 right now, he has the same SV% that he finished the year with last year, which was top 10. There are definitely goalies ahead of him who's stats will go down as they have more GP.

 

You forget another problem that SV% has. Dave mentioned it earlier. Some arenas treat shots like baseball stadiums treat the speed gun. It's inflated to favor the home team.

 

I also thought shots off the post don't count as shots on net? I would like to know for sure.

 

When Miller poke checks the puck away on a breakaway is that a save even though a shot was never taken? Shouldn't it be a save.

 

How about the shootout the other night when Miller was so strong the player never took a shot. Hasek would do that all the time. It wasn't counted as a shot but was as big as any save he made.

 

SV% is a flawed stat. It's subjective to the whims of the official scorer and some of the biggest plays a goalie can make are not counted as saves.

 

To me GAA is black and white. How many goals on average does a goalie let in. It allows for all the different scenarios. Some games he may have 40 shots some timed it 17. Some games he may face a flurry of scoring chances. Some not so much. It's why I favor it when judging goalies. ;)

[hopeleslyobvious]

You forget another problem that SV% has. Dave mentioned it earlier. Some arenas treat shots like baseball stadiums treat the speed gun. It's inflated to favor the home team.

 

I also thought shots off the post don't count as shots on net? I would like to know for sure.

 

When Miller poke checks the puck away on a breakaway is that a save even though a shot was never taken? Shouldn't it be a save.

 

How about the shootout the other night when Miller was so strong the player never took a shot. Hasek would do that all the time. It wasn't counted as a shot but was as big as any save he made.

 

SV% is a flawed stat. It's subjective to the whims of the official scorer and some of the biggest plays a goalie can make are not counted as saves.

 

To me GAA is black and white. How many goals on average does a goalie let in. It allows for all the different scenarios. Some games he may have 40 shots some timed it 17. Some games he may face a flurry of scoring chances. Some not so much. It's why I favor it when judging goalies. ;)

 

So just to make sure I'm clear on this one. You think a goalie with a 2.25 GAA who faces 20 shots a night is better than a goalie who faces 40 shots a night and has a 3.00 GAA? By the way for those of you keeping track, the goalie with a 2.25 GAA would roughly have a .887 SV% and the goalie with a 3.00 GAA would have a .925 SV%.

[Bmwolf21]

IMO, as Dave mentioned, GAA and SV %, like most stats, don't tell the whole story. Really, you can make an argument against the ineffectiveness of a lot of stats in sports, which is why sabermetrics in baseball have become so popular - they tend to tell a more complete story than trying to piece it together through a bunch of other stats.

 

I think when you are trying to compare goalies you have to look at W/L, SV% GAA and add your own subjective evaluation of the scoring chances against and team defense to get a full picture of the goalie's effectiveness.

[Eleven]

So, taking it outside the Hoplessly DeLuca thing for a minute...

 

Brodeur was the best goalie in the league. So was Kolzig. So was Hasek. None are now.

 

Luongo never was and never will be, but that's a discussion for another season (LAST season, for those who remember the argument).

[Bmwolf21]

Who do you cast your vote for? A few seasons ago there were a lot of really good goalies and two or three elite goalies; lately it seems there are a lot more really good goalies and not many elite ones.

 

Kiprusoff? Giguere? Turco? Those three all seem to have the elite-style numbers thus far this year; while I haven't seen many Calgary games, I'd have to lean toward Kiprusoff right now. Facing 29 shots per game; 2nd in GAA (2.04); 2nd in SV % (.929); 4th-most wins (14) t-1st in shutouts (4)...

 

Where does Ryan fit in this debate? Or does he belong there at all? Enquiring minds want to know...