Adams: we have an elite D corps

[mjd1001]

For all the talk about Power, I am more confident in Power than I am in Byram right now.  To me it seems as if Bryam is closer to his ceiling, and that ceiling is a very skilled guy who underperforms that 'raw skill' and the end result is a slightly above average D-man at best.  With Power, I still think, and expect, he will be better than that over time.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

For all the talk about Power, I am more confident in Power than I am in Byram right now.  To me it seems as if Bryam is closer to his ceiling, and that ceiling is a very skilled guy who underperforms that 'raw skill' and the end result is a slightly above average D-man at best.  With Power, I still think, and expect, he will be better than that over time.

This is fair. 

I continue to think that Power will be a very good NHL player with a long career. Maybe Tyler Myers+? Nice player.

But the calls and hopes for him to get mean and nasty are misplaced.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

For all the talk about Power, I am more confident in Power than I am in Byram right now.  To me it seems as if Bryam is closer to his ceiling, and that ceiling is a very skilled guy who underperforms that 'raw skill' and the end result is a slightly above average D-man at best.  With Power, I still think, and expect, he will be better than that over time.

I think I like Byram better than you do.

That aside, I agree with much of this.

[dudacek]

I think Byram is going to settle in over his career as Brian Campbell.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

For all the talk about Power, I am more confident in Power than I am in Byram right now.  To me it seems as if Bryam is closer to his ceiling, and that ceiling is a very skilled guy who underperforms that 'raw skill' and the end result is a slightly above average D-man at best.  With Power, I still think, and expect, he will be better than that over time.

There’s SO much written about the guy here I had to double check his age to make sure he was still 22. After all this time we still seem to collectively undervalue the development time it takes for players to become the versions of themselves they are ultimately most closely associated with (see: Finkle and Einhorn, who we traded at older ages than Power and “aren’t the same guys elsewhere as they were here.”)

I feel like this idea even works more strongly against top picks as not only are expectations higher out the gate, we forget sometimes they have a much higher potential runway for development, too. The best players are almost always the adaptable ones - the ones that can adjust over time while picking up new skills and learning to harness the ones they have against the best competition they’ve faced. It just takes time.

The fact this is the case even more so with D-men only drives the point home further with regards to Owen. 

[JP51]

I can hold out at least some hope of this in the next few years as long as Goalies dont count as Defense

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think Byram is going to settle in over his career as Brian Campbell.

I dont hate this especially if he drops a Rensberger hit or 3 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

For all the talk about Power, I am more confident in Power than I am in Byram right now.  To me it seems as if Bryam is closer to his ceiling, and that ceiling is a very skilled guy who underperforms that 'raw skill' and the end result is a slightly above average D-man at best.  With Power, I still think, and expect, he will be better than that over time.

This is a fair and balanced evaluation of both defensemen. Overall, Power is going to be a more balanced player than Byram. (As you point out.) On the other hand, when evaluating each of them you have to accept what their individual skill set is. Byram is more of an offensive player and less of a defender. And that offensive skillset defines his play. The key to each player is to find a partner that will allow each of them to accentuate their strengths and minimize their liabilities. 

From a broad overview of our defensive corps, I see a lot of our offense generated by the blueline. The key to get the most out of it is get the best match with each pair. It seems to me that right now Dahlin/Byram, Power/Kesserling and Samuelsson/Timmons are the most likely pairings when the season starts. This is a young group that has much more upside to tap into. 

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, JP51 said:

I can hold out at least some hope of this in the next few years as long as Goalies dont count as Defense

I dont hate this especially if he drops a Rensberger hit or 3 

Hate it? It would be a revelation 

[JP51]

Just now, Thorny said:

Hate it? It would be a revelation 

agreed... it would be a great place to end up...a bigger version of Campbell... I hope that he can achieve the Campbell balance of Offense and Defense but also be more effective moving people based on his size... thats all I am thinking... but hell if we get to a BC level... I am perfectly happy. 

[dudacek]

Context skews perception a bit.

Brian CAMPBELL’s peak season as a Sabre was 48 points. He was a + player once.

Byram last year was as good as all but CAMPBELLs peak season in Buffalo, it’s the team around them that creates most of the associated vibe.

[shrader]

56 minutes ago, Thorny said:

There’s SO much written about the guy here I had to double check his age to make sure he was still 22. After all this time we still seem to collectively undervalue the development time it takes for players to become the versions of themselves they are ultimately most closely associated with (see: Finkle and Einhorn, who we traded at older ages than Power and “aren’t the same guys elsewhere as they were here.”)

I feel like this idea even works more strongly against top picks as not only are expectations higher out the gate, we forget sometimes they have a much higher potential runway for development, too. The best players are almost always the adaptable ones - the ones that can adjust over time while picking up new skills and learning to harness the ones they have against the best competition they’ve faced. It just takes time.

The fact this is the case even more so with D-men only drives the point home further with regards to Owen. 

I was asking myself the age question too while reading that. And that goes for both players. In my mind I was thinking that surely Byram is two plus years older, but Google informs me that there’s only a year and a half difference. He’s still developing too. 

[Pimlach]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

"I really do. I think we have one of the top d corps in the league. I truly believe it and it was a focus and an emphasis this summer. We need to be a better defensive team. That's not just our D"

Adams is selling hope.  He is looking for something positive to say about the off season and the upcoming season.   Sabres tickets are not flying off the shelf and ticket prices are very low relative to the rest of the league.  Buffalo is home of the Bills and the Sabres have never been so irrelevant.  Adams has to do more than cheer lead to get the fans back.  

Top D corps in the league?   No way.   Lots to prove here.  Maybe in a few years but they still lack that big steady shut down defensive rock.  Maybe he is here and will emerge, maybe they never get a player like that, not all teams have one.  

I liked Kesselring's game but lets remember that Kesselring plus Doan for Peterka gives you some idea of his perceived value.  Expecting him to be an impact player is asking a lot, but he can and should improve the group.   Timmins was a rotational 3rd pair guy for the Leafs and did not play in the playoffs.  

As for Power, I am not ready to give up on him at 22.  I do expect that he will take a step forward this year.  

Mule - he was expected to be physical and strong on the PK.   He is not either.  He has to be better and do more.  Otherwise move him out.  

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, JP51 said:

agreed... it would be a great place to end up...a bigger version of Campbell... I hope that he can achieve the Campbell balance of Offense and Defense but also be more effective moving people based on his size... thats all I am thinking... but hell if we get to a BC level... I am perfectly happy. 

Agree and I shudder to think of what Campbell’s numbers would look like if he was fortunate enough to line up beside a top 10 player in the world for a season 

[CallawaySabres]

The biggest paper tigers of all time. I will genuinely feel bad for these players when they are getting booed off the ice after 10 games and chasing 8th from the pit. It's really not their fault that they are paid like they are elite players, when in reality, they just got paid too early and fans expectations are totally unrealistic.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

The biggest paper tigers of all time. I will genuinely feel bad for these players when they are getting booed off the ice after 10 games and chasing 8th from the pit. It's really not their fault that they are paid like they are elite players, when in reality, they just got paid too early and fans expectations are totally unrealistic.

Anecdotally I don’t see too many lofty expectations. Divide seems to be mostly between those who would be ridiculously satisfied by merely making the playoffs and those who will admirably find a way to be satisfied regardless. I really don’t see too many demanding more than the bare minimum 

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Agree and I shudder to think of what Campbell’s numbers would look like if he was fortunate enough to line up beside a top 10 player in the world for a season 

You mean instead of a world-class veteran like Teppo Numminen against other team's 3rd lines on a president's trophy winning team?

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You mean instead of a world-class veteran like Teppo Numminen against other team's 3rd lines on a president's trophy winning team?

Yes? Sorry is your opinion that Byram didn’t severely benefit from Dahlin, and that Brian wasn’t the best player on his pair? 

Why don’t you just focus on my post pumping Power’s tires I’m tired of my takes literally never being positive enough for you lol.

Byram is the goat and I am sorry and apologize and will not take issue with any comparison made to franchise keystones of the past - I officially concede (regardless of the demonstrably poor relative metrics) 

Edited 1 hour ago by Thorny

[dudacek]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Yes? Sorry is your opinion that Byram didn’t severely benefit from Dahlin, He absolutley did and that Brian wasn’t the best player on his pair? Numminen was better. As was McKee. And Tallinder. (And really, Spacek, Lydman and Kalinin weren't far off)

Campbell was a good but flawed puck-moving defenceman who didn't play in tough defensive situations an absolutely benefitted from being on good teams.

Edited 1 hour ago by dudacek

[Cityo'Rasmii]

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Campbell was a good but flawed puck-moving defenceman who didn't play in tough defensive situations an absolutely benefitted from being on good teams.

I guess time has softened my perception of all things that didn’t bite me in the ass repeatedly 

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

This is fair. 

I continue to think that Power will be a very good NHL player with a long career. Maybe Tyler Myers+? Nice player.

But the calls and hopes for him to get mean and nasty are misplaced.

Agreed on the last point especially.

We know versions of the saying "Can toughness be taught" or "you can't teach toughness".  

But you know what you CAN teach? You can teach a guy with his height and his size and his reach to position himself better to take away lanes, to use that reach to push the puck away from opposing players better than you could with a guy who needs to take an extra step or two to get there because he has less reach size.

We've had 'big-ish' guys supposedly with talent who were physical and hit (Bogo, Risto) that had awful positioning and didn't use their size strategically and they weren't good.

On the other hand, here on the Sabres you also had 'big-ish' guys that didn't hit, but used their size and reach and positioned themself well and ended up being pretty darn good in their own zone because of HOW they used their size (Schmelik and Tallinder)

Power is taller and has a bette reach than all of those guys, and arguably more upside offensive talent.  If/when he learns how to position himself, how to take angles, how to make the 'smart' play in the defensive zone, he could/should be better than any of them.

[mjd1001]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think I like Byram better than you do.

That aside, I agree with much of this.

I don't DISLIKE Byram, its just I need to see him take another step up.  Forget about taking over a game, I just don't ever really see him using his talent to even take over a single shift all that often. Thats the eye test.  

As far as results/analytics go, he had a chance to be the #1 guy back there when Dahlin was out and he wasn't that good and the team was awful.  His analytics...when he is NOT with Dahlin they are actually pretty bad (below 50% in most major categories).  WITH Dahlin they are better, but EVERYONE's are better with Dahlin.

I mean, I kinda do like Bryam for his visible skill, I just want him to step up a bit more and make more use of it.  I just don't think we have seen him take advantage of all the skill he has yet.