Alex Tuch contract talks

[PromoTheRobot]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

Most people would agree with you that he wasn't much of a leader. And that shouldn't be a surprise because he was too young and inexperienced to have the captaincy and leadership responsibilities thrust on him. That miscalculation was an organizational mistake. What Jack understood, as did Reinhart and Ullmark, is that this franchise as it was structured had little chance to succeed. He was proven to be right, as were Reinhart and Ullmark. It shouldn't be a surprise that their respective careers in three different locations thrived once they got away from this Pegula run franchise. 

Now that's a leap. Jack didn't understand anything other than he hated Buffalo. I'd argue Jack along with Evander was the source of the bad locker room vibes that derailed this franchise. 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

It’s not about one player and position. We had Eichel, Reinhart and Ullmark on the roster. Because of a lot of factors they all wanted out and got out. You don ‘t think our situation would be different if they stayed? The critical  issue goes beyond particular players as it does to the overall hockey operation.

No, unless new locker room leadership emerged first. Eichel, for all his skill, was a terrible leader and contributed to the mess this team became. The Sabres fate was sealed when they drafted him because he was "the guy" and the Sabres had to do everything to make Jack happy.

If you want to play "what if?" imagine if we got McDavid.

Edited 16 hours ago by PromoTheRobot

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

No, unless new locker room leadership emerged first. Eichel, for all his skill, was a terrible leader and contributed to the mess this team became. The Sabres fate was sealed when they drafted him because he was "the guy" and the Sabres had to do everything to make Jack happy.

If you want to play "what if?" imagine if we got McDavid.

All three players that I mentioned that left have thrived in their new locations. And with respect to Jack, I have not heard of a scintilla of problems with him in Vegas. 

There are no "what if" games being played here. The Sabre organization under Pegula are recognized as a poorly managed franchise by everyone in the business. 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, 7+6=13 said:

I think we're a better overall team now and you do too.  

I think we had them and weren't a playoff team.  We used their talent, in part to aquire different talent, but I wouldn't want to go back to that time.  

I certainly do not believe that the Sabres are a better team now than if they would have remained. 

[7+6=13]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I certainly do not believe that the Sabres are a better team now than if they would have remained. 

If you think we're a goalie away from being a playoff team, you do believe we're better than the Eichel years.  

[PromoTheRobot]

12 hours ago, JohnC said:

All three players that I mentioned that left have thrived in their new locations. And with respect to Jack, I have not heard of a scintilla of problems with him in Vegas. 

There are no "what if" games being played here. The Sabre organization under Pegula are recognized as a poorly managed franchise by everyone in the business. 

That's because Jack is just one piece of the Vegas machine. He's not the center of their universe like he was in Buffalo. 

I believe things would have gone far differently if McDavid were a Sabre, but then having Tim Murray as your GM is still a handicap.

It's true the Sabres are not considered a well run franchise. But one thing I've learned about the media, especially the national sports media, is it's lazy. Once an opinion forms, it sticks. No one bothers to update it, especially when everyone just repeats each other. So things could change but you'd never know because of the prevailing opinion. And much has changed with the Sabres this year alone.

 It's better to follow local beat writers. And even then, few are any good. Bill Hoppe is probably the best since the late Jim Kelley. Sneaky Joe DiBiasi is one of the worst. 

[JohnC]

19 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

That's because Jack is just one piece of the Vegas machine. He's not the center of their universe like he was in Buffalo. 

I believe things would have gone far differently if McDavid were a Sabre, but then having Tim Murray as your GM is still a handicap.

It's true the Sabres are not considered a well run franchise. But one thing I've learned about the media, especially the national sports media, is it's lazy. Once an opinion forms, it sticks. No one bothers to update it, especially when everyone just repeats each other. So things could change but you'd never know because of the prevailing opinion. And much has changed with the Sabres this year alone.

 It's better to follow local beat writers. And even then, few are any good. Bill Hoppe is probably the best since the late Jim Kelley. Sneaky Joe DiBiasi is one of the worst. 

You don’t need to follow the national or local media to form an opinion on the owner and the organization he assembled. When all is said and done the team’s record speaks for itself. You can’t hide from it because its existence is a non-erasable fact and not an opinion. 

Edited 2 hours ago by JohnC

[PromoTheRobot]

30 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You don’t need to follow the national or local media to form an opinion on the owner and the organization he assembled. When all is said and done the team’s record speaks for itself. You can’t hide from it because its existence is a non-erasable fact and not an opinion. 

We are just going around the same block over and over. Let's see how the season plays out.

[JohnC]

26 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

We are just going around the same block over and over. Let's see how the season plays out.

I'm not demoralized about our team's prospects for the season. I believe that if the Sabres get solid goaltending, we should be vying for a playoff spot up to the end of the season. But even if that is the case, there is no way that I'm going to credit this Pegula operated franchise as being a well-run operation. If you are a Sabre fan, the standard for success is a lot lower than for most franchises. And that is a shame. When you dumb down the expectations from a diminished fan base, it is not something to be proud of.  

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, JohnC said:

I'm not demoralized about our team's prospects for the season. I believe that if the Sabres get solid goaltending, we should be vying for a playoff spot up to the end of the season. But even if that is the case, there is no way that I'm going to credit this Pegula operated franchise as being a well-run operation. If you are a Sabre fan, the standard for success is a lot lower than for most franchises. And that is a shame. When you dumb down the expectations from a diminished fan base, it is not something to be proud of.  

So if the Sabres finally do turn the corner, no credit will be given to anyone involved? What about the Bills? Are they just a happy accident? 

You know, anyone outside of our bubble would look at an owner with two champion caliber franchises and think they were pretty good.

[JohnC]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

So if the Sabres finally do turn the corner, no credit will be given to anyone involved? What about the Bills? Are they just a happy accident? 

You know, anyone outside of our bubble would look at an owner with two champion caliber franchises and think they were pretty good.

If you are saying that Pegula has operated the Bills in the same way he has operated the Sabres, you are off the mark. The models to be followed are the Bills and Bandits. You hire the right staff and allow them to do their jobs. 

The Bills and Sabres are two different entities with two different operations. Their individual record is a testament to the quality to each of their operations. One is a success and the other is not. At least for me, the reasons for the disparity in outcomes are not too difficult to discern. 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

If you are saying that Pegula has operated the Bills in the same way he has operated the Sabres, you are off the mark. The models to be followed are the Bills and Bandits. You hire the right staff and allow them to do their jobs. 

The Bills and Sabres are two different entities with two different operations. Their individual record is a testament to the quality to each of their operations. One is a success and the other is not. At least for me, the reasons for the disparity in outcomes are not too difficult to discern. 

But what changes is the Sabres become successful too? 

We operate under many assumptions. Terry is considered to be, or been, a meddlesome owner. But how much is Terry steering the ship right now? You have Adams, plus Jarmo, Lindy of course, and Staal, Ventura, Karmanos and Fortin as well. You're also seeing a shift away from a speedy offensive skill team to one that focuses more of defense and puck possession. Who's vision is being implemented now?

[Jorcus]

19 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I'm not sure why but in the past 2 to 3 days... With no new information... I've totally changed my thinking on how I would want theSabres to handle this. 

My thinking is lock him up to a long-term deal only if it's a very team-friendly deal. I don't mean lowball him in an embarrassing way, but don't overpay and make sure you're not at the top of the market. 

You have him this year. My thinking is if he's reluctant to sign the deal you put in front of them then play out the year. 

If you are having a bad year and it looks like you're going to miss the playoffs, and he's having a good year, then, if he's willing to move, move him to another team. The assets you might be able to get back could be just as good as a 30 plus-year-old aging Alex Tuch.

If his play starts visibly declining this year because he is starting to show signs of being a 30-year-old winger, then you dodged a bullet by not giving him $80 million. 

Finally, if the team plays well and makes the playoffs, and he's a big part of it, then in the off-season you negotiate with him just like everyone else would. By making the playoffs and being his hometown team, at least you're not at a disadvantage against other teams, and I don't think another team will offer him a long-term deal for much more than what you would have to do, again,to get a 30-year-old aging winger. 

Maybe he'd be resentful against the team for not giving him what he wanted. I doubt that, but if he was and he signed someplace else anyway, then use that $10 million a year to allocated someplace else, again... Not on a 30 to 38-year-old winger.

I don't know why but for the past year....up until 2 or 3 days ago....my thinking was sign him at any cost. Now I'm just as willing to let the season play out and see how things go.

 

I know your looking at it from the Sabres point of view as to playing a wait and see how things go with Tuch before the contract extension or trade. If I were Tuch I would probably wait and see how things are going before being tied down to the Sabres. Thing thing about the Sabres you pretty much know what is going to happen by mid January if not sooner. If it's the same old wait till next year I think he would want out even if it ment less money overall. 

I think I am less concerned about Tuch's decline than you might be. He is a very dedicated player who plays all aspects of the game. Good to great players seem to last longer than the middle of the road types. Of players in his birth year class he has played fewer games than many of them at 536. Not sure if that matters but I think I would expect a player of his level to get 900 to 1000 games. That fact he can play any situation would seem to shelter issues as age catches up.

Then there is Florida. Age seems to be of no concern to Bill Zito. I know different team in a different place but it's interesting to look.

Player           age             years left              AAV

 

Barkove      30               5                          10M

Tkachuck    30              5                          9.5M

Reinhart      29               7                          8.6M

Bennet        29               8                           8M

Verhaeghe  30               8                           7M

Marchand   37                5                           5.25M

Jones          30               5                            7M

Ekblad          30              5                            6.1 M

 

Maybe the writings on the wall with this group, Barkove is out. Tkachuk is out out and to be honest it's pretty much his physical game that makes him a good player because he is not a fast skater. The Verhaghe and Marchand contracts don't look that great on paper. The point is that they have 7 aging contracts and we have none, well one if you count Skinner. An aging Tuch contract should not break us. 

I suspect it gets done in a bit less than the 9M dollar range. AFP has it at 7x8.5M. We will see. 

[oddoublee]

36 minutes ago, Jorcus said:

 

I know your looking at it from the Sabres point of view as to playing a wait and see how things go with Tuch before the contract extension or trade. If I were Tuch I would probably wait and see how things are going before being tied down to the Sabres. Thing thing about the Sabres you pretty much know what is going to happen by mid January if not sooner. If it's the same old wait till next year I think he would want out even if it ment less money overall. 

I think I am less concerned about Tuch's decline than you might be. He is a very dedicated player who plays all aspects of the game. Good to great players seem to last longer than the middle of the road types. Of players in his birth year class he has played fewer games than many of them at 536. Not sure if that matters but I think I would expect a player of his level to get 900 to 1000 games. That fact he can play any situation would seem to shelter issues as age catches up.

Then there is Florida. Age seems to be of no concern to Bill Zito. I know different team in a different place but it's interesting to look.

Player           age             years left              AAV

 

Barkove      30               5                          10M

Tkachuck    30              5                          9.5M

Reinhart      29               7                          8.6M

Bennet        29               8                           8M

Verhaeghe  30               8                           7M

Marchand   37                5                           5.25M

Jones          30               5                            7M

Ekblad          30              5                            6.1 M

 

Maybe the writings on the wall with this group, Barkove is out. Tkachuk is out out and to be honest it's pretty much his physical game that makes him a good player because he is not a fast skater. The Verhaghe and Marchand contracts don't look that great on paper. The point is that they have 7 aging contracts and we have none, well one if you count Skinner. An aging Tuch contract should not break us. 

I suspect it gets done in a bit less than the 9M dollar range. AFP has it at 7x8.5M. We will see. 

Nice post. Good teams should never exclusively shy away from players in their 30's. If Tuch thrived purely on speed and soft hands, yes, be careful. 

His game is more balanced and diverse than that. No reason he can't score 30 goals and play decent two way hockey until he is 35-36. 

[Mango]

15 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Now that's a leap. Jack didn't understand anything other than he hated Buffalo. I'd argue Jack along with Evander was the source of the bad locker room vibes that derailed this franchise. 

That's a implies that the Pegula era before Eichel the franchise was firmly on the tracks. 

That's certainly a take.

[PromoTheRobot]

17 minutes ago, Mango said:

That's a implies that the Pegula era before Eichel the franchise was firmly on the tracks. 

That's certainly a take.

Those were the free spending days of Ville Leino and Christian Ehrhoff. 😂

Touche. 

Edited 12 minutes ago by PromoTheRobot