Gorges + Bogosian + Moulson + Ennis = Failure.

[JJFIVEOH]

Far be it from me to agree with Yse on something, but his central point is a good one: regardless of the reasons, the bad contracts on the Sabres far outweigh the bargain contracts. Reinhart and Eichel are determined by the CBA, not anything else.

 

To succeed in the cap age, Murray needs to turn it around. He's not in cap trouble, and I think he is aware, but the lack of production versus pay for the four players named in this thread is a huge reason why we are not in the playoffs.

 

I have to disagree. There are four contracts on this team that are bad (and two of them arguably weren't when they were either traded here, or extended while here). There are far more than four bargain contracts on this team. And if you looked at every team's roster, chances are the +/- on the majority of teams is above four. 

 

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. 

 

Every GM has, or will have to deal with ridding themselves of a bad contract or two in the offseason simply because nobody can predict the future. It's the nature of the cap era game. 

[JohnRobertEichel]

I have to disagree. There are four contracts on this team that are bad (and two of them arguably weren't when they were either traded here, or extended while here). There are far more than four bargain contracts on this team. And if you looked at every team's roster, chances are the +/- on the majority of teams is above four. 

 

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. 

 

Every GM has, or will have to deal with ridding themselves of a bad contract or two in the offseason simply because nobody can predict the future. It's the nature of the cap era game. 

 

Your opinion is suspect and lacks supporting evidence. You are going to have a difficult time defending a GM whose team is right up to the salary cap and yet finished 5th worst in the league standings. That is a very poor return-on-investment no matter how you slice it.

 

I'll tell you what, though: this thread was really meant to get everyone's attention, not to run Murray out of town just yet. His resume with Anaheim and Ottawa justified a chance as an NHL GM. Get 2-3 of the guys I mentioned out of here this summer, re-sign Kane, have a good 2017 draft, trade for a good d-man, make the playoffs next season...I'll go back to defending him.

[pi2000]

As much as I've bagged on Gorges over the past few years, I'd be OK keeping him around as a 6th/7th guy.   Nope.   that...... not at $3.9m.

 

Ennis can stay, I like his game the last few weeks.. but he's their worst cost per point player by a wide margin.... so I could go either way on him.   Depends on the return.       

 

Bogo is definitely one of those guys Eichel is talking about.   

 

If GMTM can somehow get Bogo and Moulson off the books ($10mil) this summer, I'll consider it a successful offseason.

[JJFIVEOH]

Your opinion is suspect and lacks supporting evidence. You are going to have a difficult time defending a GM whose team is right up to the salary cap and yet finished 5th worst in the league standings. That is a very poor return-on-investment no matter how you slice it.

 

I'll tell you what, though: this thread was really meant to get everyone's attention, not to run Murray out of town just yet. His resume with Anaheim and Ottawa justified a chance as an NHL GM. Get 2-3 of the guys I mentioned out of here this summer, re-sign Kane, have a good 2017 draft, trade for a good d-man, make the playoffs next season...I'll go back to defending him.

 

Like I said, you can't compare success vs. salary cap in the cap era. There is zero correlation between total points and total cap hit. Three of the top six didn't even make the playoffs. 

 

The Sabres have five contracts that can be considered "bad". Ennis, Moulson, Gorges, Kulikov and Bogosian. Moulson isn't as bad as you think, he lead the team in power play goals. Kulikov would have been worth it had he not been injured the entire year. Gorges was worth it when he was traded here. Ennis got his contract when he was healthy and productive, Murray couldn't have predicted concussions. Every team has bad contracts, I'm not going to go team by team to prove it to you to give you supporting evidence. But you have to be foolish to think there is one single team in the league that has the perfect payroll. 

 

I'm not defending Murray, if anything I'm starting to lose faith if he doesn't fire Goober. But, on a team that has more problems than I can count, cap space is the very least of anybody's concerns. The current cap situation has no bearing on how this year turned out, and it has no bearing moving forward. It's a moot point. 

[LGR4GM]

2 of the 4 won't be on the team when Kane, Eichel, or Reinhart's new deals kick in. Murray should be able to ditch 1 player to Vegas so if we get a little lucky, we might only have 1 mildly annoying contract (moulson) for 1 more year than we like. Deep breaths! Back away from the cliff ppl

[dudacek]

I have to disagree. There are four contracts on this team that are bad (and two of them arguably weren't when they were either traded here, or extended while here). There are far more than four bargain contracts on this team. And if you looked at every team's roster, chances are the +/- on the majority of teams is above four. 

 

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. 

 

Every GM has, or will have to deal with ridding themselves of a bad contract or two in the offseason simply because nobody can predict the future. It's the nature of the cap era game. 

 

I'm not saying the Sabres are in cap trouble or have more bad contracts than many teams.

I'm saying that their lack of performance in relation to this year's cap created a lot of our problems.

 

The team's biggest need is a 2/3 defenceman. Bogo is being paid to be that player and performed like a six.

The second biggest need is a #4 shutdown guy. Gorges is being paid to be that player and performed like a seven.

 

Ennis and Moulson are being paid like top six wingers. They were used as fourth liners.

Ennis produced like one.

Moulson wasn't much better – a PP specialist on a team that didn't need one. At least he helped the PP during the early injury run.

 

If either of them performed to their contract, Sam might have been freed from Jack's hip to play some centre.

Edited April 11, 2017 by dudacek

[Drunkard]

I have to disagree. There are four contracts on this team that are bad (and two of them arguably weren't when they were either traded here, or extended while here). There are far more than four bargain contracts on this team. And if you looked at every team's roster, chances are the +/- on the majority of teams is above four. 

 

Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. 

 

Every GM has, or will have to deal with ridding themselves of a bad contract or two in the offseason simply because nobody can predict the future. It's the nature of the cap era game. 

 

You keep saying the contracts were fine when he acquired them like that absolves Murray but that's a big part of his job to anticipate stuff like that. When you acquire an older vet with term or you give a veteran player a contract you have to anticipate a drop in their production as they age. Everyone loves the Okposo pick up now because he's still in his prime but what happens 3 or 4 years from now when his production slips and he still has another few years on his deal? Murray will either need to find a way to dump him to a team with extra space or he'll have to find production from a bargain player in order to offset it. LA is a great example and Chicago will be one soon. They are paying through their teeth for aging vets who won't produce and it's coming soon for Chicago. The difference for those teams is they at least have Championship to show for it. If Murray isn't careful/methodical with his contracts he can put us in a similar hole with nothing to show for it.

Actually we were near the cap this season after signing KO and acquiring Kulkov, and it was one of the main reasons GMTM didn't acquire adequate D depth. He simply didn't have the cap space

 

However it's also a symptom of a greater problem. Besides Jack and Lehner no Sabres player gave value over their contract price. Most, like all the vet D, Moulson and Ennis delivered value to 50% or less of what they are getting paid. Every team has a few such players but the Sabres had more then just about anyone else. GMTM either gave or acquired all these bad contracts and has saddled this team with so much dead weight, the team died under the strain.

 

The only cure is to drain this swamp, don't make the same mistake twice (that means don't re-sign any of the UFAs), find a way out from 2-3 of the bad contracts, get a 4th line who wins draws to rest ROR some, get a 2nd PP QB/top 3 D to spell Risto and get 2 reliable (not slow) vet D to add D depth. Then and only then will this team move forward.

 

Can GMTM accomplish this feat? No, I doubt it, but hope spring eternal.

 

We got great production relative to contract out of Eichel, Reinhart, and McCabe. That ends for Eichel and Reinhart after next season though and we'll have a few more years getting value out of McCabe.

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

Not sure if Gorges deserves to be in this category.  He isn't a 18-22 minutes a night guy - although he was used that way this season because of injuries and less than stellar play by others on the backend.  He is 100% the kind of guy this team needs in the locker room and on the ice (finishing checks, making it miserable on forwards in front of his net), but I think he needs to be at 14-18 minutes a game. Of course in order for that to happen GMTM needs to plug a couple holes at D.  Either way Gorges isn't going anywhere this offseason unless he's part of a package deal.

 

Also, how does Kulikov not make this list?  I still like Bogo's play more than his (although he had me scratching my head a lot more this season with some of his decisions). 

Edited April 11, 2017 by SHAAAUGHT!!!

[Drunkard]

Not sure if Gorges deserves to be in this category.  He isn't a 18-22 minutes a night guy - although he was used that way this season because of injuries and less than stellar play by others on the backend.  He is 100% the kind of guy this team needs in the locker room and on the ice (finishing checks, making it miserable on forwards in front of his net), but I think he needs to be at 14-18 minutes a game. Of course in order for that to happen GMTM needs to plug a couple holes at D.  Either way Gorges isn't going anywhere this offseason unless he's part of a package deal.

 

Also, how does Kulikov not make this list?  I still like Bogo's play more than his (although he had me scratching my head a lot more this season with some of his decisions). 

 

That's the fault of our idiot coach, not Murray. Just look at the lineups for the last few games of the season. McCabe and Kulikov were healthy and playing and our window licking coach decided to play Gorges on the top pairing with Ristolainen (the guy who gets huge minutes) rather than putting Gorges on the third pair. Gorges belongs on the third pair and he'd probably be ok there for the remainder of his contract (he and McCabe would sort of balance out since he is probably underpaid by around the same amount we overpay Gorges).

Edited April 11, 2017 by Drunkard

[Jsixspd]

One thing Murray is good at, is getting rid of stuff he doesn't want.

But perhaps not so good at figuring out in advance who he shouldn't offer jobs to?  Gorges, Kulikov, Ennis, Moulson, ad nauseum as evidence of that fact?  

That's the fault of our idiot coach, not Murray. Just look at the lineups for the last few games of the season. McCabe and Kulikov were healthy and playing and our window licking coach decided to play Gorges on the top pairing with Ristolainen (the guy who gets huge minutes) rather than putting Gorges on the third pair. Gorges belongs on the third pair and he'd probably be ok there for the remainder of his contract (he and McCabe would exactly balance out since he is probably underpaid by around the same amount we overpay Gorges).

Didn't Flagg provide, a few months ago,  some concrete stats on how statistically awful pairing Gorges with Risto is, and that Risto does much better with other pairings? 

 

If so that is indefensible decision making on Bylsma's part. 

[Ottosmagic13]

But perhaps not so good at figuring out in advance who he shouldn't offer jobs to?  Gorges, Kulikov, Ennis, Moulson, ad nauseum as evidence of that fact?  

Didn't Flagg provide, a few months ago,  some concrete stats on how statistically awful pairing Gorges with Risto is, and that Risto does much better with other pairings? 

 

If so that is indefensible decision making on Bylsma's part. 

People keep mentioning Kulikov. Was he really that bad when he was healthy? He isn't a glass knee or a post concussion kind of guy so I don't see how anyone much less a GM could have predicted that.

 

I'm even willing to cut some slack to Ennis. Concussions are a bitch, just ask Tim Connolly. 

 

I completely agree, however, that Abylsmal's pairing skills are questionable. It really seems like some nights he pulls names out of a hat (for both halves of the bench). 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Ottosmagic13

[Jacque Richard]

Ennis pulling 3.6 million is worth it? No way

[JohnRobertEichel]

Not sure if Gorges deserves to be in this category.  He isn't a 18-22 minutes a night guy - although he was used that way this season because of injuries and less than stellar play by others on the backend.  He is 100% the kind of guy this team needs in the locker room and on the ice (finishing checks, making it miserable on forwards in front of his net), but I think he needs to be at 14-18 minutes a game. Of course in order for that to happen GMTM needs to plug a couple holes at D.  Either way Gorges isn't going anywhere this offseason unless he's part of a package deal.

 

Also, how does Kulikov not make this list?  I still like Bogo's play more than his (although he had me scratching my head a lot more this season with some of his decisions). 

 

Gorges deserves to be in this category because he is a terrible professional hockey player at this stage of his career, and he will be making $4 million next season. It doesn't matter if he averages 20 minutes on the ice or 16 minutes. Any time greater than 0 minutes is too much time on the ice for him. His leadership skills are also vastly overrated. All he did this season was complain about how much it sucks being on a team that sucks. Wow. Great leadership. So inspirational. 

 

Kulikov doesn't make this list because he's an unrestricted free agent next season and is therefore no longer a salary cap concern.

[LGR4GM]

Gorges deserves to be in this category because he is a terrible professional hockey player at this stage of his career, and he will be making $4 million next season. It doesn't matter if he averages 20 minutes on the ice or 16 minutes. Any time greater than 0 minutes is too much time on the ice for him. His leadership skills are also vastly overrated. All he did this season was complain about how much it sucks being on a team that sucks. Wow. Great leadership. So inspirational. 

 

Kulikov doesn't make this list because he's an unrestricted free agent next season and is therefore no longer a salary cap concern.

Gorges isn't a cap concern either. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo I get the concern. Gorges, not so much. His contract will end before McCabe, Reinhart, Eichel's contracts start. So we can not worry about him.

 

We are really only talking about 1 year and how to survive it if we retain the 3 players above. 2018.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Gorges isn't a cap concern either. Moulson, Ennis, Bogo I get the concern. Gorges, not so much. His contract will end before McCabe, Reinhart, Eichel's contracts start. So we can not worry about him.

 

We are really only talking about 1 year and how to survive it if we retain the 3 players above. 2018.

Gorges contract may not be a concern per se, but his play certainly is.  To have him again in our top 6 would be a mistake.  Not as bad as bringing back Kulikov and Franson, but almost.  Also paying someone $4 mill to be your 7th D isn't a wise use of resources either.

[spndnchz]

Gorges contract may not be a concern per se, but his play certainly is.  To have him again in our top 6 would be a mistake.  Not as bad as bringing back Kulikov and Franson, but almost.  Also paying someone $4 mill to be your 7th D isn't a wise use of resources either.

I like his attitude. But his play?

[OhMyDahlin]

First of all, let's make this clear: Murray is definitely responsible for the contracts of all 4 players I called out. He gave Ennis his contract extension, and the other 3 were brought to the Sabres on Murray's watch. MAYBE I will cut Murray some slack for Moulson (who has provided some production this season, compared to last) and Ennis (2 straight horrible seasons is a long time, but who am I to judge how long he needs to recover from the Ovechkin-induced concussion?), but the contracts for Gorges and Bogosian are as inexcusable as their on-ice performances.

 

Next, to say we're not in cap trouble is myopic. I'm looking at next summer as much as this one. Kane, Reinhart, and Eichel all need to be kept, and Murray will need to re-sign Kane this summer if he plans on keeping him. But we also need to add 3 quality defenseman and another top 6 winger to this roster...and 1-2 of these 4 needs will probably have to be young vets via free agency/trade who will be beyond their entry-level contracts.

 

Finally, if you don't think the current on-ice product has any connection with the general manager's allocation of the team's financial resources, then I don't what else to tell you. Hopefully you can reason that shifting cap money to some areas of the roster prevents a GM from addressing other areas of the roster. The Sabres were at the cap ceiling this season, and it limited what Murray could do to address the horrific defense.

 

Yes, my panties are in a knot. Deal with it.

Guhle is one of those defensemen and Nylander is the top-6 forward.

 

There are no good "young veterans" in free agency that will provide you with anything more than some of our prospects would provide...those players don't make it to free agency.

 

It's time to get Nylander with Eichel, not third line plugs. It's time to get Fasching on the 4th line with Carrier. It's time to give Bailey and Baptiste a legit shot.

 

The Amerks will have Estephen, Cornel, Karabacek, Smith, Malone and Dupuy, (plus other youngsters like Kile and Crema) and they all need to play as much as possible.

 

Eichel, Reinhart, O'Reilly, Okposo, Kane, Nylander, Bailey, Baptiste, Carrier, Fasching, Foligno, Girgensons, Larsson, Rodrigues, Ennis...make me a team out of those guys.

 

It's time both teams live and die by the young kids, like the Leafs and Marlies have done this season. (I really wish we could fire Dan Bylsma and get Sheldon Keefe.)

[Marvelo]

Actually we were near the cap this season after signing KO and acquiring Kulkov, and it was one of the main reasons GMTM didn't acquire adequate D depth. He simply didn't have the cap space

 

However it's also a symptom of a greater problem. Besides Jack and Lehner no Sabres player gave value over their contract price. Most, like all the vet D, Moulson and Ennis delivered value to 50% or less of what they are getting paid. Every team has a few such players but the Sabres had more then just about anyone else. GMTM either gave or acquired all these bad contracts and has saddled this team with so much dead weight, the team died under the strain.

 

The only cure is to drain this swamp, don't make the same mistake twice (that means don't re-sign any of the UFAs), find a way out from 2-3 of the bad contracts, get a 4th line who wins draws to rest ROR some, get a 2nd PP QB/top 3 D to spell Risto and get 2 reliable (not slow) vet D to add D depth. Then and only then will this team move forward.

 

Can GMTM accomplish this feat? No, I doubt it, but hope spring eternal.

 

I agree. No value for the money. There were no pleasant surprises, no overachievers and no bargains. And unbalanced for sure. I looked it up and O'Reilly took about 1800 faceoffs. The next guy in line was Eichel with only 800 faceoffs. That's 1,000 more faceoffs for O'Reilly than the next guy. He was so busy taking faceoffs I'll bet it took away from his game. 

 

Murray has built a foundation here with a lot of holes.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Marvelo

[GASabresIUFAN]

I agree. No value for the money. There were no pleasant surprises, no overachievers and no bargains. And unbalanced for sure. I looked it up and O'Reilly took about 1800 faceoffs. The next guy in line was Eichel with only 800 faceoffs. That's 1,000 more faceoffs for O'Reilly than the next guy. He was so busy taking faceoffs I'll bet it took away from his game. 

 

Murray has built a foundation here with a lot of holes.

We spent 81 million (6th most in the NHL) in terms of actual salary and had the 5th worst team. The others, like Pit, Chi, NYR and Tor all made the playoffs. (Except LA who just fired their coach and GM, and they won 2 Cups). Our GMTM is clealy paying top $ for players who aren't performing. You can't do this for very long and kep your job.