That Aud Smell Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I imagine its because of the age we live in (or hopefully it's because it just goes without mentioning), but why is Kane involved with a woman/girl like this? Don't give me the macho "boys will be boys", or "how can he know how old she is"! At some point we need to hold folks accountable for their actions, athletes and celebrities included. Poor decisions will lead to bad results. Save it for your wife Like what? Also, Kane doesn't have a wife. He has a girlfriend of three or more years, but has joked he won't get married until after Toews does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) No it is not. That is called fact finding. You're applying doubt where it does not apply. When the accused is tried, he is found either Guilty or Not Guilty. He is not found Innocent. He's presumed innocent. Presumed innocence is doubt in its wholest form. Kane, presumed innocent, has all of the benefit of the doubt. It is wholly his. And subsequently the accusation carries no weight at the time it is made. It is subject to the full weight of the accused's granted presumed innocence. There is no reason to attempt to cast more doubt upon something that already is being subjected to the full force of doubt. As facts are gathered, we chip away at that doubt. We add merit to the accusation until such a time as we've eliminated doubt. We doubt the accusation up until the time that we fully do not. So when someone wants to craft a narrative about a rape accuser lying, what they're doing is piling on. Accusing the accuser is pointless. The accuser is starts from the bottom. How much lower do you need to push them? Who's adding more doubt here? Nobody. We have a healthy level of doubt afforded by our justice system. We're not out slandering her here or oppressing her. If you want to nitpick between the definitions of innocent and guilty that's fine, but I literally posted this exact thing in the post you quoted. What are we accusing her of? Edited August 7, 2015 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 I imagine its because of the age we live in (or hopefully it's because it just goes without mentioning), but why is Kane involved with a woman/girl like this? Don't give me the macho "boys will be boys", or "how can he know how old she is"! At some point we need to hold folks accountable for their actions, athletes and celebrities included. Poor decisions will lead to bad results. Save it for your wife Like what? Also, Kane doesn't have a wife. He has a girlfriend of three or more years, but has joked he won't get married until after Toews does. Aud Fight! Kane's relationship status is irrelevant. And let's face it, getting women has been part of the allure of becoming a famous athlete as far back as Babe Ruth. The only two things that matter, IMO, are 1) was the woman of age for consent and 2) at any point during their liaison did the woman say "no" or "stop." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Under 17. This premise is ridiculous. It really isn't that ridiculous for a 16 year old to appear to be 5 years older than her age. Heck. In some cities silicone is the popular sweet 16 present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Who's adding more doubt here? Nobody. We have a healthy level of doubt afforded by our justice system. We're not out slandering her here or oppressing her. If you want to nitpick between the definitions of innocent and guilty that's fine, but I literally posted this exact thing in the post you quoted. What are we accusing her of? Sexual assault/rape is the only type of crime I can think of where the victim's credibility is questioned more than the alleged perpetrator. A victim's entire sexual history is brought into question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Sexual assault/rape is the only type of crime I can think of where the victim's credibility is questioned more than the alleged perpetrator. A victim's entire sexual history is brought into question. It's also a unique crime. I can't think of another crime where the situation is normally of two consenting parties Aud Fight! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aud Fellow Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Like what? Also, Kane doesn't have a wife. He has a girlfriend of three or more years, but has joked he won't get married until after Toews does. Like whatever...no matter what comes of it, what the hell is he doing putting himself in this situation? Under age? Of age? Girl he "knows"? One night stand? Doesn't matter, they're all excuses for doing things he shouldn't be doing. Like beating up a cab driver...'oh, he kept my money'! Good one. Great role models. Not getting married til your friend gets married is akin to "boys will be boys". There's a reason this stuff happens with attitudes like that. Aud Fight! Kane's relationship status is irrelevant. And let's face it, getting women has been part of the allure of becoming a famous athlete as far back as Babe Ruth. The only two things that matter, IMO, are 1) was the woman of age for consent and 2) at any point during their liaison did the woman say "no" or "stop." Haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's also a unique crime. I can't think of another crime where the situation is normally of two consenting parties :lol: Didn't Cornelius Bennett do time because of a consensual relationship that turn non-consensual mid-act? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Like whatever...no matter what comes of it, what the hell is he doing putting himself in this situation? Under age? Of age? Girl he "knows"? One night stand? Doesn't matter, they're all excuses for doing things he shouldn't be doing. I understand you better now. You'd originally posted a question about why he was involved with a girl/woman like this. Seems you're more saying why's he picking up a (young) woman at a bar at all. It's more about him, as opposed to her. I get that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Like whatever...no matter what comes of it, what the hell is he doing putting himself in this situation? Under age? Of age? Girl he "knows"? One night stand? Doesn't matter, they're all excuses for doing things he shouldn't be doing. Like beating up a cab driver...'oh, he kept my money'! Good one. Great role models. Not getting married til your friend gets married is akin to "boys will be boys". There's a reason this stuff happens with attitudes like that. What? :blink: So he drinking at bars and having one night stands are equivalent to assault? His record has been spotless since that night, and I'm sure he's gone to plenty of bars and hooked up with plenty of women between then and now. Until legal matters are involved, why do you care what he does in his spare time? And since when is a joke akin to "boys will be boys"? As far as I know that saying is mostly about actual boys getting muddy or having fights over backyard football games. Didn't Cornelius Bennett do time because of a consensual relationship that turn non-consensual mid-act? I'm not sure, that's a little before my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Didn't Cornelius Bennett do time because of a consensual relationship that turn non-consensual mid-act? I recall the incident generally, but don't recall that detail. IIRC, he was no longer with the Bills when it happened (Falcons?), but it happened in Buffalo? Google reminds me that his accuser wound up being arrested for her role in a crack cocaine ring. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bennetts-accuser-arrested/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Sexual assault/rape is the only type of crime I can think of where the victim's credibility is questioned more than the alleged perpetrator. A victim's entire sexual history is brought into question. Perhaps more so with sexual assault, but the burden of proof and credibility always lies with the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove a case beyond doubt. Sexual assaults, however, rarely follow a script. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Perhaps more so with sexual assault, but the burden of proof and credibility always lies with the prosecution. The prosecution has to prove a case beyond doubt. Sexual assaults, however, rarely follow a script. And monied or connected people can and do at times appear to be above or outside the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 No. I'm not going to stop. And you shouldn't ask me to. Intelligent conversation (which is what I expect from you especially) does not include telling someone who doesn't agree with you to STFU. There's a reason the law of the land is innocent until proven guilty. And to be clear: no one here has any facts. No one is smearing anyone. The conversation (other than the statutory rape part of it) has revolved primarily around the presumption of innocence and the question of whether and how often this type of accusation is false. Yes -- if it's true, he's done something terrible and she's been through something terrible. No one is disputing that. But just because she's accused him doesn't mean he did it. It just doesn't. When the facts are in -- which they decidedly are NOT -- we can weigh them and evaluate the situation on a more informed basis. Until then, the people here are trying to have an intelligent, reasonable conversation. This is way out of line. No one has said "well, if she was raped, she was asking for it." A number of people have said that the accusation could be false. There is a huge difference between those 2 concepts that anyone not wearing PC-liberal-feminist blinders ought to be able to appreciate. nFreeman, I am asking you to stop saying things that are hurting people. I'm asking you to consider the possibility that you, like me, were raised in a society with some real under currents of misogyny and sexism. I'm asking you to consider the possibility that you, like me, absorb some of those less lovely parts of our society and they have affected your default thought patterns. I'm asking you to listen to the people you know, like Josie, when they tell you that the default to disbelief that victims of sexual assault experience is real and it is painful. These are the things I am asking you when I am asking you to stop. I am expressing a sincere desire that the discussion change course out of respect for this victim, and all victims of sexual assault and the pile-on pain that our reactions can cause. Obviously, I have no authority to actually silence people. You, on the other hand, do have that authority. So, if you wish, this can be my last post on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 And monied or connected people can and do at times appear to be above or outside the law. They can usually afford a vigorous and competent defense, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 You shouldn't be making any judgments because we have no facts. We have nothing upon which to build doubt against the accusation. There is no need to "run through scenarios" unless you desire to find ways to find doubt without facts. And the word desire is key here. You desire to find scenarios in which doubt is supported. Why? Is it fun? Is it a challenge? Like doing a crossword? You are way over the top with this and you are not as smart as you think you are in this discussion. Everyone here is having a reasonable discussion (except for JJ who is nucking futs and who I can't distance myself far enough from). You should find your desire to psychoanalyze message board posters to be highly ironic given your many protestations. Why do you desire to find scenarios where community members hate women? Why? Is it fun? Is it a challenge? Like doing a crossword? You are correct, there is no need to to run through scenarios in this situation. But there is no need to run through roster building scenarios either. There is no need to run through forming lines or when to rest goalies or really anything else we discuss here. We do a lot of things in life that aren't needed. Community members are just talking and unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone specifically doubt the accuser here. However, I am reading a lot of generic discussion of a complex issue. People are talking respectfully here. That's all anyone can ask for. And FWIW, my wife thinks the attempted shout down/shaming or whatever it is a few of you are trying to accomplish here is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 They can usually afford a vigorous and competent defense, yes. True. If charges are laid he'll likely have them reduced. Good thing Patty Kane isn't Joe Blow from Bumf#%@, Saskatchewan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 You are way over the top with this and you are not as smart as you think you are in this discussion. Everyone here is having a reasonable discussion (except for JJ who is nucking futs and who I can't distance myself far enough from). You should find your desire to psychoanalyze message board posters to be highly ironic given your many protestations. Why do you desire to find scenarios where community members hate women? Why? Is it fun? Is it a challenge? Like doing a crossword? You are correct, there is no need to to run through scenarios in this situation. But there is no need to run through roster building scenarios either. There is no need to run through forming lines or when to rest goalies or really anything else we discuss here. We do a lot of things in life that aren't needed. Community members are just talking and unless I missed it, I haven't seen anyone specifically doubt the accuser here. However, I am reading a lot of generic discussion of a complex issue. People are talking respectfully here. That's all anyone can ask for. And FWIW, my wife thinks the attempted shout down/shaming or whatever it is a few of you are trying to accomplish here is ridiculous. Why are you comparing hockey discussion to a discussion of rape accusations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 They can usually afford a vigorous and competent defense, yes. It also changes the way people interpret the likelihood of criminal activity. "He's rich, why would he (insert crime here)?" is very much a thought process that takes place. This is especially prevalent in sexual assault cases where there is a very real tendency for some people to say "He's_____, he can get anyone he wants, why would he rape someone" which has the effect of de-facto discounting the credibility of the accusations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 nFreeman, I am asking you to stop saying things that are hurting people. Without first reading back through his posts, I'm going to say that he hasn't said anything that can reasonably be interpreted as hurtful to anyone. He's said stuff with which I disagree. But, hey: Vive le difference. Even on subjects as sensitive as this one. And FWIW, my wife thinks the attempted shout down/shaming or whatever it is a few of you are trying to accomplish here is ridiculous. Good stuff, Mod #1. I clipped that piece above because *my* wife, who's a serious feminist on just about every issue I can imagine, was raised in a neighborhood very much like South Buffalo. Her reaction to the reports? Disappointment in the accused, some skepticism over the allegations, and, to her dismay, a nagging sense of sympathy for Kane. Oh, she was so angry to have to admit to the last piece. This is complicated stuff. Why are you comparing hockey discussion to a discussion of rape accusations? Are you suggesting that newsworthy rape accusations do not admit of healthy and vigorous discussion, and an exchange of differing viewpoints? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 True. If charges are laid he'll likely have them reduced. Good thing Patty Kane isn't Joe Blow from Bumf#%@, Saskatchewan. If a plea is accepted wouldn't he be wide open for a civil suit? I hate to say this, if Kane were to admit even the minimal amount of culpability it could cost him millions in a law suit not to mention lost endorsement deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Anyways. Any more information come out yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Pat Kane has made his own bed. That being said it would be nice to hear these allegations are false but Pats past history of buffoonery suggests to me that he still has a lot of growing up to do. Some guys never get past it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drnkirishone Posted August 7, 2015 Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 (edited) If a plea is accepted wouldn't he be wide open for a civil suit? I hate to say this, if Kane were to admit even the minimal amount of culpability it could cost him millions in a law suit not to mention lost endorsement deals.I am sure the accusation alone has cost him endorsement deals. The only thing he should be worrying about is his living accommodations for the next handful of years Edited August 7, 2015 by drnkirishone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 7, 2015 Hamburg police making a statement momentarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.