Fire Lindy Ruff NOW Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 You could argue most of the points you've made, but not the bolded part. Miller might be the best positional goaltender in the entire NHL. His Average SV% also puts him in the top 10...Ever. he overcommits on shots. i see it all the time. he always way out of the crease, on pretty much every shot. thats not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 He's good, but he isn't a guy thats going to be depended on much to steal a game for you. If the offence/defence in Detroit struggles, chances are they will lose the game. His play and stats are more of a reflection of the team in front of him rather then the teams standings being a reflection of his play You could say the same thing about most goalies in the league - if the offense/defense fails, they'll probably lose the game. Excluding Dom from the equation, I believe that the concept of "stealing" games is exaggerated - I think most goalies will steal a couple each year, and some will steal a couple more than others. All that being said, I think we disagree about Howard. He is more than capable of stealing a couple games, and his play on its own merits (taking Detroit's talent and systems out of the equation) is good enough to put Howard above the others you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 he overcommits on shots. i see it all the time. he always way out of the crease, on pretty much every shot. thats not right. I disagree. It is well known that one of Miller's strengths is not overcommiting, and being fundamentally sound. As LPF said, he is one of the best positional goaltenders in the league in regards to being square to the shooter and taking away angles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Lindy Ruff NOW Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I disagree. It is well known that one of Miller's strengths is not overcommiting, and being fundamentally sound. As LPF said, he is one of the best positional goaltenders in the league in regards to being square to the shooter and taking away angles. i dunno. he does make good saves, but whenever i watch he gets burned alot. like short side, right under his arm, or glove side or that stupid shoulder nudge he does. i see him get burned alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 i dunno. he does make good saves, but whenever i watch he gets burned alot. like short side, right under his arm, or glove side or that stupid shoulder nudge he does. i see him get burned alot. first half of the year, most definitely. second half of the year, you rarely saw that. He was much better glove high, and let in a lot less of those soft goals. I still think he was put back into the lineup too soon, but goalies are a funny breed. I think if he had recovered fully, his numbers wouldn't have been so gaudy up to the All-Star break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 i dunno. he does make good saves, but whenever i watch he gets burned alot. like short side, right under his arm, or glove side or that stupid shoulder nudge he does. i see him get burned alot. He definately has his weaknesses, and as a butterfly goalie, those tend to be the upper corners. But if his D-men force the shots ourside, clear the crease, and don't set up screens for the other team, he is top notch, as shown over the past three years when he actually has a good compliment of blueliners in front of him. He's not Hasek, he won't win 30 games a year on his own. But, IMO, there is no netminder in the league less likely to blow a game they should have won than him. Now the trick for Darcy is to put together a set of forwards that should win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I disagree. It is well known that one of Miller's strengths is not overcommiting, and being fundamentally sound. As LPF said, he is one of the best positional goaltenders in the league in regards to being square to the shooter and taking away angles. When he was fighting through the injury/injuries earlier this season, he was overplaying a fair number of shots. He got back to his normal positioning down the stretch. When healthy, I'd agree w/ the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 When he was fighting through the injury/injuries earlier this season, he was overplaying a fair number of shots. He got back to his normal positioning down the stretch. When healthy, I'd agree w/ the above. That's what my second response basically said. I agree that for a stretch he overplayed when he was still trying to equilibrate after the concussions, but IMO, saying Miller just stinks is wrong. again, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That's what my second response basically said. I agree that for a stretch he overplayed when he was still trying to equilibrate after the concussions, but IMO, saying Miller just stinks is wrong. again, IMO. Sorry, didn't see that one. Just have a couple of minutes between meetings to check the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWell Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Send him down to Rochester!!!! At least he can play there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dEnnis the Menace Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Sorry, didn't see that one. Just have a couple of minutes between meetings to check the board. no worries. I had all my meetings earlier today...one highlighted by an engineer with gas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazielSabre Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 He definately has his weaknesses, and as a butterfly goalie, those tend to be the upper corners. But if his D-men force the shots ourside, clear the crease, and don't set up screens for the other team, he is top notch, as shown over the past three years when he actually has a good compliment of blueliners in front of him. He's not Hasek, he won't win 30 games a year on his own. But, IMO, there is no netminder in the league less likely to blow a game they should have won than him. Now the trick for Darcy is to put together a set of forwards that should win. Makes me think, who are the Roy, Brodeur's and Haseks of this generation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 He's good, but he isn't a guy thats going to be depended on much to steal a game for you. If the offence/defence in Detroit struggles, chances are they will lose the game. His play and stats are more of a reflection of the team in front of him rather then the teams standings being a reflection of his play until he feels, along with some other team in the league, that he is a starting goaltender, rather then just a good backup. How many other teams with a #1 goalie play their backups more then 1/3 of the season? His job is to be the backup goaltender, and part of the job is to be ready to play when needed and once every few games. Biron, Noronen, both guys who people thought at some point had the ability to be the next starter here or somewhere else. Where are they now? Backup playing 20-25 games and out of the NHL. Biron was the starter for quite a while until he started getting up there in age. He took the job in NY with the intention of being a backup. Same goes for Theodore in FL. He was signed knowing he would be the backup with Markstrum eventually coming up. Markstrum needed more time in the minors so Theodore and Clem splitting duty worked out great. Either way, ditching the goalie "schedule" and playing whoever is doing well is the way to go. If Enroth has a good game, play him again. He's proven he can do well in a string of games. If he can't then that will put an end to whether or not Enroth is a starter. It also gives both goalies an incentive to do well. You could argue most of the points you've made, but not the bolded part. Miller might be the best positional goaltender in the entire NHL. His Average SV% also puts him in the top 10...Ever. He can't even crack the top 10 in a season on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Rhea Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 You could argue most of the points you've made, but not the bolded part. Miller might be the best positional goaltender in the entire NHL. His Average SV% also puts him in the top 10...Ever. Yes he is tied for 10th all time in sv% with Ilya Bryzgalov(who some think sucks), but he is also 42nd all time gaa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 He can't even crack the top 10 in a season on a regular basis. Try this: filter for 50 starts and 1500 saves and then compare Save Percentage. I haven't looked, but I would bet Miller is top 5 in Save Percentage with those restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Try this: filter for 50 starts and 1500 saves and then compare Save Percentage. I haven't looked, but I would bet Miller is top 5 in Save Percentage with those restrictions. Tied for 9th for active goalies in SV% career. GAA around 15th for active/career numbers. 3rd in cap hit, 5th in salaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Try this: filter for 50 starts and 1500 saves and then compare Save Percentage. I haven't looked, but I would bet Miller is top 5 in Save Percentage with those restrictions. If you restrict certain stats to the point of only considering 1500 saves AND 50 starts, then top 10 isn't really that much of an accomplishment is it? Hey, why don't we restrict it to mid January til the end of the season, only weekends and games starting at 7:00. :rolleyes: :P But seriously, just glancing over the last 4 years, 3 of those years Miller was barely in, or outside the top 10 in goaltenders (save %) with 50+ games. And there were only about 20 something in that category. And comparing all-time save % is irrelevant with the changes in the league over the years. The first year after the lockout Miller was 10th with a .914 save %. This year .914 got you 23rd. In 1988 Patrick Roy got the Vezina with an even .900. And he was the only one to crack 90% that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 If you restrict certain stats to the point of only considering 1500 saves AND 50 starts, then top 10 isn't really that much of an accomplishment is it? Hey, why don't we restrict it to mid January til the end of the season, only weekends and games starting at 7:00. :rolleyes: :P You seem to be the one married to SV%. I think it is a pretty odious stat without context .I just think save percentage is misleading unless you are comparing players with a similar work-load. But seriously, just glancing over the last 4 years, 3 of those years Miller was barely in, or outside the top 10 in goaltenders (save %) with 50+ games. And there were only about 20 something in that category. At least you are comparing the right group. I get this 2008-09 2nd 2009-10 1st 2010-11 12th 2011-12 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 You seem to be the one married to SV%. I think it is a pretty odious stat without context .I just think save percentage is misleading unless you are comparing players with a similar work-load. At least you are comparing the right group. I get this 2008-09 2nd 2009-10 1st 2010-11 12th 2011-12 6th. Here's what I got with 50 games AND 1500 saves according to ESPN. 2005-06 Didn't play 50 games or have 1500 saves. 2006-07 8th out of 18 2007-08 tied for 14th out of 19 2008-09 5th out of 21 2009-10 1st out of 20 2010-11 tied for 13th out of 23 2011-12 tied for 10th out of 20 Of course save % isn't always the perfect stat. How would you compare goaltenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Of course save % isn't always the perfect stat. How would you compare goaltenders? The most important stat is # of Wins. The second is winning percentage. I don't just think that about Miller, I think it is universally true. In some ways I'm not convinced there is a single metric that can tell you that one goalie is better than another. But most goalies never win 50 games. It's a tough position and they get chewed pretty quickly. (I often think there should be a save category for shots in high percentage areas, which would be more telling. ) But generally speaking, the only way to study the elephants is by watching them. (I know that's probably not the answer you'd like). But anyway, I like Enroth, I'm just not ready to embrace him with less than 20 NHL wins. These guys can look great for long stretches until they are broken down by shooters- and flump..... See........ Jim Carrey --- (who I think won the Vezina IIRC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Tied for 9th for active goalies in SV% career. GAA around 15th for active/career numbers. 3rd in cap hit, 5th in salaries. That is exactly how I see Miller. Very good, and paid very great. Problem? No. Solution? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 The most important stat is # of Wins. The second is winning percentage. The tough part on that the team around you. You can let in a bunch of softies and get the win (see games 2, 3, and 4, PHI/PIT), or you can nearly shut the other team down and still lose. In a baseball example, Cliff Lee pitched 10(!) shutout innings the other night, but the Phillies lost 1-0 (the loss went to a relief pitcher, not Lee). You can't ask a pitcher to be better than that but yet it doesn't show up as a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 As has been mentioned, Enroth was credited with a couple of losses where he came in for relief of Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 The tough part on that the team around you. You can let in a bunch of softies and get the win (see games 2, 3, and 4, PHI/PIT), or you can nearly shut the other team down and still lose. In a baseball example, Cliff Lee pitched 10(!) shutout innings the other night, but the Phillies lost 1-0 (the loss went to a relief pitcher, not Lee). You can't ask a pitcher to be better than that but yet it doesn't show up as a win. A fair point....but who are you going to trust more as a rotational ACE? Someone with an ERA of 3.5 lifetime over 7 seasons - or someone with an ERA of 3.5 with 100 innings pitched lifetime. They are not equal nor are they interchangeable. I think wins matter most. In hockey, some games are track meets, and some games are slogs in the mud. (Unless you play on a trapping team, then every game is a slog in the mud) :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Rhea Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 A fair point....but who are you going to trust more as a rotational ACE? Someone with an ERA of 3.5 lifetime over 7 seasons - or someone with an ERA of 3.5 with 100 innings pitched lifetime. They are not equal nor are they interchangeable. I think wins matter most. In hockey, some games are track meets, and some games are slogs in the mud. (Unless you play on a trapping team, then every game is a slog in the mud) :lol: I think wins can be misleading. Miller just passed Hasek for all time Sabre wins, does that mean Miller is better than Hasek? No way no how! The only thing I think you can take from that is that Miller has played with much better talent than did Hasek. If Ryan were to have played with Hasek's cast of characters, I think Miller may have been hard pressed to accomplish 25 wins in a season and I personally don't think Miller would have made ONE playoff appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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