SwampD Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Says the man with a vampire for his avatar. There's really no point in arguing this with you. Like a previous poster stated, the burden of proof is on you. The fact that the sound scientific proof doesn't exist makes me wonder why you decided to bring it up at all, but to each their own i suppose. Yes. I'd rather rely on studies done by companies that are actually hired by the oil and gas companies. Oh, wait, you are right. Scientific proof does not exist, because those studies surely were not scientific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichFan Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 The same type of whining that brought a 40hr work week, womens rights, an end to slavery, civil rights, etc etc. Commies. 40 hr work week only means something to a union worker. Most people rarely see such a thing. Check your history on slavery and civil rights. I agree with you that lefties brought us commies, good thing Reagan was able to take care of that problem :thumbsup: Why aren't you taking credit for also bringing us Obama? Or Obamacare? :thumbdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I think that analysis is a bit backwards. A good Drug Dealer is like Big Business. Saying business emulates a drug dealer is kind of drastic. A bit drastic, in no way inaccurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I think if the owner who gives his team all the money in the world, ate small children, you and your ilk would be ok with that. It's not a pot shot if it's true. We have no ethics. Might and money is right. There isn't a "rolls eyes" emoticon large enough for this post. Okay, hypocrite, how about NOT supporting the Sabres - exercise your choice to be "ethical". In fact, how about not supporting any NHL team, since they're all backed by evil businessmen in some way or another. That goes for any major sport. So, I guess you're out of luck for the NBA, NFL, NASCAR, and MLB as well. You may as well not drive cars, either, or watch television, or use computers, or utilize modern medicine, or even turn on anything electrical. If it's about ethics, you have the choice to practice what you consider ethical by not supporting the unethical. Oh, yes, while you're at it, build yourself a boat, since modern shipping and air travel are all big, unethical business, as well, and find yourself a non-Western country (except Russia, Japan, and China) and move there. Because "might and money" are what made Western socities what they are (and the opposite being true for third-world nations). Only fools buy into irrational, utopian ideals and try to force reality to follow such narratives. I don't know where people get these ideas from except for in Hollywood drivel and Grateful Dead songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Yes. I'd rather rely on studies done by companies that are actually hired by the oil and gas companies. Oh, wait, you are right. Scientific proof does not exist, because those studies surely were not scientific. Where is the proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayg Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Duke Study Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I am going to regret getting into this, I know I am, but ... someone above comparing this to Love Canal is a HUGE leap ... yes, that Duke study found that there are much higher methane levels in wells close to the sites ... but it also said, "The study found no evidence of contamination from chemical-laden fracking fluids, which are injected into gas wells to help break up shale deposits, or from "produced water," wastewater that is extracted back out of the wells after the shale has been fractured." In other words, the methane levels appear to be an unintended side effect ... I am not saying the drilling companies should not be held responsible and do something about it, that absolutely should if this is consistently the case. But Love Canal was not a side effect, it was intentional dumping of chemicals that were known to be toxic. Let's not make it out like Pegula and his peers are pumping methane into people's water on purpose. THAT would be comparable to Love Canal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 If you live out in the sticks near farms, especially dairy farms, you're going to have elevated levels of methane. :ph34r: And if you live near a cabbage farmer, God help you. It may not be methane, but, man, it's nasty. By the way, where's my tinfoil hat - interesting when you google "methane levels near farms" a whole bunch of methane/fracking propganda shows up on the first page returned, especially when "fracking" has nothing to do with the search. Google is truly an evil empire in many, many ways. How are you with their "ethics"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I think if the owner who gives his team all the money in the world, ate small children, you and your ilk would be ok with that. It's not a pot shot if it's true. We have no ethics. Might and money is right. Even if it is true it's still the wrong place to do it. Since you are the only person here with ethics, I know those ethics won't allow you to support a team owned by a man who makes a living destroying our environment. Don't let the door hit you on your tin foil hat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnabov Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 A lot of the homes in the rural areas that they are getting the natural gas from don't even use it - they use fuel oil to heat their homes. If you still have utility power coming into your home, you're benefiting from low natural gas prices as many power plants are operated off NG - one website I saw said something like 95% of new generation capacity comes from NG fueled plants. If you're anti-fracking, you probably need to go off the electric grid to make yourself sleep well at night. Personally I have no problem with fracking if it's properly regulated and only done in an environmentally sound manner. I didn't see anyone comment on the financial windfall this has been for many in the boondocks - not just those getting the royalties but the jobs, local tax revenue, infrastructure improvements and the like. Of course anyone who's well is polluted or land spoiled should be more than amply compensated and that's the sticking point. Regardless, everyone has their own conviction and I doubt there will ever be much changing of sides on the matter. I am saddened though by the comments that seem to think any business activity is bad and that industry is always going to be evil. Does this brainwashing come out of the public school system/universities from the last 20-50 years or is it actually based on some logical process of researching the issue, engaging in some critical thinking and then forming one's own conclusion? If the latter then ok, but if you just buy into what other's tell you or you read on the internet, then you shouldn't be perpetuating the propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I am going to regret getting into this, I know I am, but ... someone above comparing this to Love Canal is a HUGE leap ... yes, that Duke study found that there are much higher methane levels in wells close to the sites ... but it also said, "The study found no evidence of contamination from chemical-laden fracking fluids, which are injected into gas wells to help break up shale deposits, or from "produced water," wastewater that is extracted back out of the wells after the shale has been fractured." In other words, the methane levels appear to be an unintended side effect ... I am not saying the drilling companies should not be held responsible and do something about it, that absolutely should if this is consistently the case. But Love Canal was not a side effect, it was intentional dumping of chemicals that were known to be toxic. Let's not make it out like Pegula and his peers are pumping methane into people's water on purpose. THAT would be comparable to Love Canal. I only used Love Canal to show that companies leave messes all the time that we, the taxpayers, have to pay to clean up. If you still have utility power coming into your home, you're benefiting from low natural gas prices as many power plants are operated off NG - one website I saw said something like 95% of new generation capacity comes from NG fueled plants. If you're anti-fracking, you probably need to go off the electric grid to make yourself sleep well at night. Personally I have no problem with fracking if it's properly regulated and only done in an environmentally sound manner. I didn't see anyone comment on the financial windfall this has been for many in the boondocks - not just those getting the royalties but the jobs, local tax revenue, infrastructure improvements and the like. Of course anyone who's well is polluted or land spoiled should be more than amply compensated and that's the sticking point. I couldn't agree more. Regardless, everyone has their own conviction and I doubt there will ever be much changing of sides on the matter. I am saddened though by the comments that seem to think any business activity is bad and that industry is always going to be evil. Does this brainwashing come out of the public school system/universities from the last 20-50 years or is it actually based on some logical process of researching the issue, engaging in some critical thinking and then forming one's own conclusion? If the latter then ok, but if you just buy into what other's tell you or you read on the internet, then you shouldn't be perpetuating the propaganda. I'm just as saddened by comments that business should be allowed to do whatever they want, with no regulations or checks as long as they make a lot of money. That kind of thinking is why Lake Erie was a dead lake in the fifties and why some rivers are still recovering. I may be a lefty, but I'm also a capitalist; if someone has a great idea or product and works hard at it, they should be able to make a lot of money for it. It's not too much to ask that it be done safely and ethically. It's not crazy lefty propaganda to question a report done by a company that gets hired by the companies it is doing the report on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miller30 Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Love Canal was much bigger than just "big business" leaving a mess to be cleaned up by the taxpayers - it was a dump site used by our own government to dump byproducts from the development of chemical weapons and the Manhattan project. The Love Canal can't even hold a candle to what our government did at the Lake Ontario Ordnance Works with the secret dumping of nuke weapon byproducts and experimental nuke reactors. What happened at Love Canal was horrific, I lived there in the 70's and today most of it is "clean" and is re-inhabited. The site in Lewiston will be safe in about 10,000 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 There isn't a "rolls eyes" emoticon large enough for this post. Okay, hypocrite, how about NOT supporting the Sabres - exercise your choice to be "ethical". In fact, how about not supporting any NHL team, since they're all backed by evil businessmen in some way or another. That goes for any major sport. So, I guess you're out of luck for the NBA, NFL, NASCAR, and MLB as well. You may as well not drive cars, either, or watch television, or use computers, or utilize modern medicine, or even turn on anything electrical. If it's about ethics, you have the choice to practice what you consider ethical by not supporting the unethical. Oh, yes, while you're at it, build yourself a boat, since modern shipping and air travel are all big, unethical business, as well, and find yourself a non-Western country (except Russia, Japan, and China) and move there. Because "might and money" are what made Western socities what they are (and the opposite being true for third-world nations). Only fools buy into irrational, utopian ideals and try to force reality to follow such narratives. I don't know where people get these ideas from except for in Hollywood drivel and Grateful Dead songs. I've been a Sabres fan since 1970. How about you? I've been through thick and thin with this team. I'm excited about the team's possibilties now but I'm having trouble with Pegula's business practices RE hydrofracking. How would you like it if you had brown tap water? (see the video I posted recently) I think there's room for improvement with the team, with me, with you, with Korab, with everyone else and especially with Pegula's business practices RE hydrofracking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I'm just as saddened by comments that business should be allowed to do whatever they want, with no regulations or checks as long as they make a lot of money. That kind of thinking is why Lake Erie was a dead lake in the fifties and why some rivers are still recovering. Excuse me, but where in this thread has someone written that? Nowhere. If you want to talk about "that kind of thinking", maybe take a look in the mirror as you are the one who "thinks" pro-business people believe the nonsense you wrote above. You seem to believe in a caricature rather than understand the thoughts of real people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I've been a Sabres fan since 1970. How about you? I've been through thick and thin with this team. I'm excited about the team's possibilties now but I'm having trouble with Pegula's business practices RE hydrofracking. How would you like it if you had brown tap water? (see the video I posted recently) I think there's room for improvement with the team, with me, with you, with Korab, with everyone else and especially with Pegula's business practices RE hydrofracking. What does this have to do with ANYTHING? Flower Power died in 1967, but we have suffered from that adolescent mindset too much since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Excuse me, but where in this thread has someone written that? Nowhere. If you want to talk about "that kind of thinking", maybe take a look in the mirror as you are the one who "thinks" pro-business people believe the nonsense you wrote above. You seem to believe in a caricature rather than understand the thoughts of real people. What does this have to do with ANYTHING? Flower Power died in 1967, but we have suffered from that adolescent mindset too much since. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR HOLLIDAY Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 This thread can only lead to bad things......... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ForTripping Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 What does this have to do with ANYTHING? Flower Power died in 1967, but we have suffered from that adolescent mindset too much since. Maybe you should spend 5 cents on yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresFan526 Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Since I am a huge fan of what Pegula is doing with the Sabres and since no evidence seems to indicate that his company has caused any environmental damage, I will start going through owner-by-owner and see how ethical everyone is in relation to our Terry. Anaheim Ducks - Henry Samueli - pleaded guilty to Stock Options Backdating as Chairman and CTO of Broadcom Corporation. Boston Bruins - Jeremy Jacobs - Chairman and CEO of Deleware North. Questionable Food? But the big crime is that he is part owner of NESN which retains Jack Edwards as an employee, and that is a major crime to anyone who is forced to watch a NESN broadcast Calgary Flames - N. Murray Edwards - Oil Financier, you know the questionable story there as apparently big oil is bad Carolina Hurricanes - Peter Karmanos - Founder of Compuware, if that's not criminal enough, then I will go with the time when he had a ponytail on that bald head of his. Get some fashion sense. Way worse crime than Pegula especially in the context that he moved the Hartford Whalers Colorado Avalanche - Stan Kroenke - married into the Wal-Mart family. Shall we talk about the labor practices at Wal-Mart? The bulk of his wealth has come from Commercial Real Estate Development to build Wal-Mart stores. Nepotism is a great thing. Columbus Blue Jackets - John McConnell - CEO of Worthington Industries in steel processing and metal products. All kinds of generalizations and evil manufacturing labor practices. Dallas Stars - Tom Hicks (until Aquilini's Partner buys them) - Buyout specialist who is totally broke. Never should have paid A-Rod all that money Detroit Red Wings - Mike Illitch - I'm not a big fan of Little Caesar's Pizza, and that is a personal offense to me. Edmonton Oilers - Daryl Katz - The Katz Group a Pharmacy company, so he's a drug dealer. Florida Panthers - Alan Cohen - Andryx Pharmaceuticals, he really is a drug dealer, literally, as they are large in drug distribution L.A. Kings - Phil Anschutz - Land investing for oil and railroads. I'm sure there's all kinds of EPA violations there. Also accepted IPO shares of Saloman Smith Barney illegally in exchange for his Investment Banking Business with Qwest. Minnesota Wild - Craig Leipold - He couldn't get it right the first time, so he decided to try and own another team with Minnesota. He's a Republican and some here seem to think that's a crime New Jersey Devils - Jeffrey Vanderbeek - Former Executive Vice President of Lehman Brothers. That company no longer exists due to the Mortgage Backed Securities Debacle, which Vanderbeek led the charge on. This was a root cause to the Great Recession and the collapse of the U.S. Housing market. He got away as he resigned before Lehman collapsed. New York Islanders - Charles Wang - The set-up man that allowed his guy Sanjay Kumar to go to jail. He fully knew of all of the accounting fraud going on at CA, but he got away and his hatchet guy went to jail. I fully believe Wang knew what was going on. New York Rangers - James Dolan - He is apparently an alcoholic with a violent temper, but I guess that's not really a crime. Ottawa Senators - Eugene Melnyk - recently settled disputes with the Ottawa Securities Commission and the SEC. Clearly, he's committed some financial fraud. Philadelphia Flyers - Ed Snider - CEO of Comcast. If that's not a crime in itself, I don't know what is. Call their customer service and you'll see what I mean by criminal. And they are becoming a Monopoly/Oligopoly in the Cable industry Phoenix Coyotes - NHL - The way they handle concussions and the entire 2004-2005 NHL season. That's criminal. Pittsburgh Penguins - Ron Burkle and Mario Lemieux - If you look at some of Burkle's investments including Occidental Petroleum (which oh by the way is the company behind Love Canal), you might question his ethics. By the way, our Green friends such as Al Gore and his father both were investors and had seats on the board of Occidental Petroleum. Al Gore Sr was very close to Armand Hammer in fact. If you don't believe me I know this as my father spent 18 years working as an executive for Occidental Petroleum and why I was born in Buffalo. San Jose Sharks - San Jose Sports and Entertainment - One of their investors is Hasso Plattner the founder of SAP, the worst ERP software company and yet number one in market share. He has invested in Private Equity funds, one of which has built a competitor to SAP. I used to implement SAP software, and I hate that product. It's so terrible and so ugly. Washington Capitals - Ted Leonsis - Former AOL executive and has beaten up fans. That really is criminal behavior. So, here's a sample size of some of the other NHL owners with perhaps more questions of ethics that may be far worse than Terry Pegula. At the end of the day, any person who has the wealth to purchase a professional sports team likely got to that position through some behavior that someone may find not ethical. If we eliminate these leagues because we find questionable ethics by some of the owners, we really don't have hockey. If we go back to the USSR era, we have one team and we wait every year for the World Championships, the Olympics and what was once the Canada Cup since the professional leagues weren't that big until the KHL, which oh by the way came after the fall of the Soviet empire, most of whose owners are billionaire oil tycoons (which has "ethics" issues). Anyway, not sure what the point of this post was, but then again, I don't really know what the point of this thread is either. 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jayg Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Since I am a huge fan of what Pegula is doing with the Sabres and since no evidence seems to indicate that his company has caused any environmental damage, I will start going through owner-by-owner and see how ethical everyone is in relation to our Terry. Boston Bruins - Jeremy Jacobs - Chairman and CEO of Deleware North. Questionable Food? But the big crime is that he is part owner of NESN which retains Jack Edwards as an employee, and that is a major crime to anyone who is forced to watch a NESN broadcast :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Minnesota Wild - Craig Leipold - He couldn't get it right the first time, so he decided to try and own another team with Minnesota. He's a Republican and some here seem to think that's a crime[ Now that right there is pretty damned funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 This thread can only lead to bad things......... :unsure: The Sabrespace PPP board? Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderbread Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Lest us not forget about our own previous owner John Rigas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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