VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I know, I get it. I was not suggesting that they did ANYTHING right except the Paille deal, which VJF59 seems to have a problem with not only on this thread but another. I am just saying that, at the time, they were proactive and seemed to spend their money wisely on Max and Timmy ... if they were producing like they did in 05-06, they would be nice contracts. As it turned out, it was not money well-spent. Therefore, given the system, the answer is not to just throw 5+ year deals at every kid like Paille who has a decent season. I stand corrected on my problems with the Paille deal, on this or any other thread. I was fully lectured on how wise Reiger was to sign the kid to a 2 year deal. Fine and dandy. You guys are all CPA's, financial wizards of the NHL collective bargaining agreement. I am impressed. Now, that said, when do you think Buffalo will win a Stanley Cup? Reiger has been forced to deal with his players under a budget ever since he took over for Muckler under the end of the Knox era and beginning of the Rigas era. Exit Rigas enter Golisano. No difference. Buffalo's small market, must operate under a budget. Other then the Devils, financial wizards out there, please name one NHL team that has won a Cup without overspending for players, or at the very least, spending right up to the penny of the cap, in the last 15 years. And even the Devils found room to trade for expensive veterans at the trade deadline year in and year out. You say the answer is to not pay young kids like Paille too much money for too many years? Sorry. The answer is to pay the best players the best money to win a championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I stand corrected on my problems with the Paille deal, on this or any other thread. I was fully lectured on how wise Reiger was to sign the kid to a 2 year deal. Fine and dandy. You guys are all CPA's, financial wizards of the NHL collective bargaining agreement. I am impressed. Now, that said, when do you think Buffalo will win a Stanley Cup? Reiger has been forced to deal with his players under a budget ever since he took over for Muckler under the end of the Knox era and beginning of the Rigas era. Exit Rigas enter Golisano. No difference. Buffalo's small market, must operate under a budget. Other then the Devils, financial wizards out there, please name one NHL team that has won a Cup without overspending for players, or at the very least, spending right up to the penny of the cap, in the last 15 years. And even the Devils found room to trade for expensive veterans at the trade deadline year in and year out. You say the answer is to not pay young kids like Paille too much money for too many years? Sorry. The answer is to pay the best players the best money to win a championship. Is Paille one of the BEST players who already deserves to be paid the BEST money? If he's not, then overpaying him PREVENTS them from having the money to do what you want, does it not? no one is arguing that the Sabres are GOING to win the Cup BECAUSE of the Paille deal, or that they should not spend to the cap limit. I think we would all like to see them loosen up the budget a bit. If you are arguing that they will NEVER win the Cup because they are small market, well ... then the owner and GM and whoever else really don't matter, do they? If you really think they have NO chance why are you here in July? You must think they have a SMALL chance or you would not care anymore, and you obviously care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 You think he's nuts because he is more willing to spend his money on hospitals and universities than on a couple of athletes? :blink: I love the Sabres, but ... As TW pointed out, the Sabres have never been that far from the cap and, in fact, were so close to the cap in '06-'07 that they had to trade Biron to free up enough space to bring in Zubrus. Last year, were in not for Teppo going down in August, we would have been a fairly average $4 million below. Let me ask you a question. Do the hospitals and universities have 18,000 fans filling up their facilities to cheer on the doctors and teachers that work in those buildings Golisano has paid for? Do they have thousands of passionate fans like us blogging all day long wondering why they won't bring in that great free agent research professor from Harvard?? Of course not. That's my point about him being nuts. Its not that he has made these wonderful donations. It's that he has made them while he refuses to spend that last 4.5 million or 10 million a year on such a high profile and emotional entity as a pro hockey franchise. It makes no sense. If you had the money, and knew you had to spend it on overpriced veterans either to rent at the trade deadline or to sign to long term contracts in order to bring a championship into your city, would'nt you do it?? I know I would. That is my frustration with Mr. Golisano. Other owners in the NHL, that may not be as wealthy or donate as much money on the wonderful things as Golisano does, spend it to win Stanley Cups. :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Let me ask you a question. Do the hospitals and universities have 18,000 fans filling up their facilities to cheer on the doctors and teachers that work in those buildings Golisano has paid for? Do they have thousands of passionate fans like us blogging all day long wondering why they won't bring in that great free agent research professor from Harvard?? Of course not. That's my point about him being nuts. Its not that he has made these wonderful donations. It's that he has made them while he refuses to spend that last 4.5 million or 10 million a year on such a high profile and emotional entity as a pro hockey franchise. It makes no sense. If you had the money, and knew you had to spend it on overpriced veterans either to rent at the trade deadline or to sign to long term contracts in order to bring a championship into your city, would'nt you do it?? I know I would. That is my frustration with Mr. Golisano. Other owners in the NHL, that may not be as wealthy or donate as much money on the wonderful things as Golisano does, spend it to win Stanley Cups. :wallbash: I don't know who you are arguing with now, but it's not with me ... I never said anything about any of that. If you want me to say that I wish Golisano would throw more of his personal fortune at the Sabres instead of running them as an independent business, i do wish that, selfishly, but I am not going to call him nuts. I understand his stance there, it's his money, he can do what he wants. That's not even really the problem, they have screwed up managing the money he DOES invest in the team. More mismanaged money is not going to win a Cup. Whatever the case, I don't know why you picked Danile Paiile as the platform for an argument that they should spend money "on overpriced veterans either to rent at the trade deadline or to sign to long term contracts in order to bring a championship into your city." And for the record, just because doctors and teachers do not have 18,000 fans filling up their facilities to cheer them on, it doesn't mean he is nuts or they are somehow less worthy or even on the same level as the Sabres. I spend WAY too much of my time worrying about the Sabres and even I will admit those things are more important. They are so different I really don't think they have a place in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Let me ask you a question. Do the hospitals and universities have 18,000 fans filling up their facilities to cheer on the doctors and teachers that work in those buildings Golisano has paid for? Do they have thousands of passionate fans like us blogging all day long wondering why they won't bring in that great free agent research professor from Harvard?? Of course not. That's my point about him being nuts. Its not that he has made these wonderful donations. It's that he has made them while he refuses to spend that last 4.5 million or 10 million a year on such a high profile and emotional entity as a pro hockey franchise. It makes no sense. If you had the money, and knew you had to spend it on overpriced veterans either to rent at the trade deadline or to sign to long term contracts in order to bring a championship into your city, wouldn't you do it?? I know I would. That is my frustration with Mr. Golisano. Other owners in the NHL, that may not be as wealthy or donate as much money on the wonderful things as Golisano does, spend it to win Stanley Cups. :wallbash: Again, see 2006-07. They spent to the cap because they thought they had a great chance to win the cup. Zubrus was a rental player brought in at the deadline to help them win. Other then the Devils, financial wizards out there, please name one NHL team that has won a Cup without overspending for players, or at the very least, spending right up to the penny of the cap, in the last 15 years. Detroit was the last team to win the cup without spending to the cap. Happened ... oh ... a month ago. There they were with $4.25M in cap space (more than we would have had with Teppo in the lineup last year.) The team they beat, Pittsburgh, had $9M+ in cap space. The Sabres are middle of the road when it comes to cap spending. There are some teams that are always closer and there are other that don't spend nearly as much as we do. Guess what, there were several teams from both groups in and out of the playoffs last year. It's not that they are cheap, it's that they made some contract decisions that have come back to hurt them. Connolly and Max were over $6M in cap space last year and combined for 104 games (out of 164 possible), 17 goals and 51 assists; that's not even a Roy or Pominville worth of production. Their "high flying, pass moving" defense became a manhandled group of Euro-pansies, each with a $2-$3M cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Is Paille one of the BEST players who already deserves to be paid the BEST money? If he's not, then overpaying him PREVENTS them from having the money to do what you want, does it not? no one is arguing that the Sabres are GOING to win the Cup BECAUSE of the Paille deal, or that they should not spend to the cap limit. I think we would all like to see them loosen up the budget a bit. If you are arguing that they will NEVER win the Cup because they are small market, well ... then the owner and GM and whoever else really don't matter, do they? If you really think they have NO chance why are you here in July? You must think they have a SMALL chance or you would not care anymore, and you obviously care. Of course I care. I am here in July because I love the Sabres and am a huge hockey fan. But I do not think they have any chance of winning the Stanley Cup this season. Do you? If you think this team can win the Cup this year, then please explain how. As for Dan Paille, I was not referring to him when I said the answer is to sign the best players for the best money. I was thinking more along the lines of the Red Wings winning their 3rd Cup in the past 10 years or so this past spring, and then still coming up with the money to sign Marion Hossa to a one year deal for what, 9 Million dollars or something insane like that? You going to criticize the Stanley Cup Champions for being stupid with their money? What are you going to say as the players pass the Cup around this summer and the fans revel in yet another Championship for the city of Detroit..."well, the Red Wings are going to crash for spending so much money on Hossa."?? Who in Detroit cares even if that were the case? I think Buffalo can win a Cup someday, regardless of their market size, and I think we fans deserve to revel in it. But the owner does matter, much more then the GM or coach. He's the guy who tells the GM to go ahead and make the big signings like Hossa to the Red Wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LabattBlue Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Of course I care. I am here in July because I love the Sabres and am a huge hockey fan. But I do not think they have any chance of winning the Stanley Cup this season. Do you? The Sabres have NO chance of winning the Cup? They may not be a favorite, but I could see them ending up in the 5th or 6th spot and the EC is not the gauntlet that the WC is. It is not a stretch to say they could win the EC. Now what their odds would be in the finals against a Detroit is another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I don't know who you are arguing with now, but it's not with me ... I never said anything about any of that. If you want me to say that I wish Golisano would throw more of his personal fortune at the Sabres instead of running them as an independent business, i do wish that, selfishly, but I am not going to call him nuts. I understand his stance there, it's his money, he can do what he wants. That's not even really the problem, they have screwed up managing the money he DOES invest in the team. More mismanaged money is not going to win a Cup. Whatever the case, I don't know why you picked Danile Paiile as the platform for an argument that they should spend money "on overpriced veterans either to rent at the trade deadline or to sign to long term contracts in order to bring a championship into your city." And for the record, just because doctors and teachers do not have 18,000 fans filling up their facilities to cheer them on, it doesn't mean he is nuts or they are somehow less worthy or even on the same level as the Sabres. I spend WAY too much of my time worrying about the Sabres and even I will admit those things are more important. They are so different I really don't think they have a place in this discussion. I think I was arguing with carpandean, who questioned how I could think Golisano was nuts for spending freely on wonderful charities while being cheap with the Sabres. In fact, I thought I replied to his post. Sorry, didn't mean to upset you. And for the record, whether Golisano's donations have a place in this discussion or not, I would still rather see him tell us his first and only priority is to win a chamionship for the city of Buffalo, instead of him saying the team has to become profitable in our small market first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetweenThePipes00 Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Of course I care. I am here in July because I love the Sabres and am a huge hockey fan. But I do not think they have any chance of winning the Stanley Cup this season. Do you? If you think this team can win the Cup this year, then please explain how. As for Dan Paille, I was not referring to him when I said the answer is to sign the best players for the best money. I was thinking more along the lines of the Red Wings winning their 3rd Cup in the past 10 years or so this past spring, and then still coming up with the money to sign Marion Hossa to a one year deal for what, 9 Million dollars or something insane like that? You going to criticize the Stanley Cup Champions for being stupid with their money? What are you going to say as the players pass the Cup around this summer and the fans revel in yet another Championship for the city of Detroit..."well, the Red Wings are going to crash for spending so much money on Hossa."?? Who in Detroit cares even if that were the case? I think Buffalo can win a Cup someday, regardless of their market size, and I think we fans deserve to revel in it. But the owner does matter, much more then the GM or coach. He's the guy who tells the GM to go ahead and make the big signings like Hossa to the Red Wings. No, i don't think they will win the Cup this season ... I don't think I ever suggested the things they are doing will attain that. there's no doubt they are at least a year or two away from that. But do you really think that throwing $9 million at Hossa or someone like him for ONE season is the answer? Is the team one player away? Would that player even sign for one season in Buffalo? $7.4 million for ONE season for Hossa is not stupid for Detroit ... but to get him or someone like him the Sabres would have had to WAY overpay for a very long-term deal and it might actually take them farther from winning the Cup you are talking about because they will be up against the cap and won't be able to put good players around that guy. Paying big bucks for Heatly, Spezza, etc. has not won a Cup for Ottawa ... The Rangers paid Jagr huge bucks and never won with him. there are no guarantees. I think your bottom line is you want a new owner. For better or worse, that's about the hardest thing to change. Youwill drive yourself nuts if every time they do not overpay for a guy you start screaming for a new owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 :death: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Again, see 2006-07. They spent to the cap because they thought they had a great chance to win the cup. Zubrus was a rental player brought in at the deadline to help them win.Detroit was the last team to win the cup without spending to the cap. Happened ... oh ... a month ago. There they were with $4.25M in cap space (more than we would have had with Teppo in the lineup last year.) The team they beat, Pittsburgh, had $9M+ in cap space. The Sabres are middle of the road when it comes to cap spending. There are some teams that are always closer and there are other that don't spend nearly as much as we do. Guess what, there were several teams from both groups in and out of the playoffs last year. It's not that they are cheap, it's that they made some contract decisions that have come back to hurt them. Connolly and Max were over $6M in cap space last year and combined for 104 games (out of 164 possible), 17 goals and 51 assists; that's not even a Roy or Pominville worth of production. Their "high flying, pass moving" defense became a manhandled group of Euro-pansies, each with a $2-$3M cap hit. Wow. great point. I had no idea the Red Wings were under the cap even one penny last year. So it appears, from reading these posts, that I am being too harsh on the owner, and too easy on the GM. I'm glad I came on this blog, you guys are pretty well versed on the Sabres and the NHL. :worthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 ...you guys are pretty well versed on the Sabres and the NHL. :worthy: Annoyingly so at times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpandean Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Wow. great point. I had no idea the Red Wings were under the cap even one penny last year. So it appears, from reading these posts, that I am being too harsh on the owner, and too easy on the GM. I'm glad I came on this blog, you guys are pretty well versed on the Sabres and the NHL. :worthy: This post speaks highly to your character (and not just because you agreed or complimented me ;) ). I loved the passion of your arguments, even if I disagreed with some of the points, and to see that you are willing to change your opinion when presented with the evidence, is even better. Welcome aboard! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 :death: What she said. ^^ Annoyingly so at times... It's a tough cross to carry, isn't it? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 This post speaks highly to your character (and not just because you agreed or complimented me ;) ). I loved the passion of your arguments, even if I disagreed with some of the points, and to see that you are willing to change your opinion when presented with the evidence, is even better. Welcome aboard! :thumbsup: I feel like his previous post was dripping with sarcasm, but I've only slept about 2 hours since the night before last so my sarcasm detector might be on the fritz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I feel like his previous post was dripping with sarcasm, but I've only slept about 2 hours since the night before last so my sarcasm detector might be on the fritz. Sorry to keep you up for so long. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Sorry to keep you up for so long. ;) :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VJF59 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I feel like his previous post was dripping with sarcasm, but I've only slept about 2 hours since the night before last so my sarcasm detector might be on the fritz. No sarcasm whatsoever. I really am floored that the mighty Red Wings were under the cap last season. That shoots down my entire rant against ownership in Buffalo. I was sincere about how cool this forum is because I respect another writer who simply replies back with facts to posts. Honestly, I loved the reply the way it was written "the last team to win a Cup spending under the cap was Detroit, oh about a month ago or so." Now that's my kind of sarcasm, factual and to the point. I don't mind being wrong, I just don't think it's necessary to flame the writer you may know is wrong. Good job, and now I can direct my wrath at Darcy Reiger. Of course, it seems he has just now made an amazing deal with Ryan Miller so even he seems determined to prove me wrong today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 No sarcasm whatsoever. I really am floored that the mighty Red Wings were under the cap last season. That shoots down my entire rant against ownership in Buffalo. I was sincere about how cool this forum is because I respect another writer who simply replies back with facts to posts. Honestly, I loved the reply the way it was written "the last team to win a Cup spending under the cap was Detroit, oh about a month ago or so." Now that's my kind of sarcasm, factual and to the point. I don't mind being wrong, I just don't think it's necessary to flame the writer you may know is wrong. Good job, and now I can direct my wrath at Darcy Reiger. Of course, it seems he has just now made an amazing deal with Ryan Miller so even he seems determined to prove me wrong today! That's it, I'm calling the shop and making an appointment to bring my sarcasm detector in. All the bells and alarms are going buck wild on each of your posts, and now I don't know what to believe. :unsure: Either way, I certainly admire someone who can dish out and take the sarcasm without coming across as a feminine hygiene product. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Sorry to keep you up for so long. ;) Your horns are showing... :chris: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FogBat Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Drury maybe, although I think his leadership qualities have been vastly overrated. Briere, no way. I was thinking along the same lines, but you beat me to it. Nice piece of clarity behind it too. At least that's something we can agree on (even if you have to delete your own posts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 At least that's something we can agree on (even if you have to delete your own posts). A moment of weakness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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