Alex Tuch contract talks

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Some good Tuch contract talk on today's B&F pod. I cued it up to the start of the Tuch conversation but you can back it up if you want to hear the whole thing.

 

A few items on signing bonuses.

1.  Fairburn stated that a guy can get a lot of the contract in a single year because of the possibility of getting a signing bonus; but he walked that back a bit saying you can get x on July 1 and then get y on the next July 1.  The latter is true.  But, unlike NFL contracts, ALL money (except for in the case of the the rare performance bonuses which not many players qualify for; if a player earns them and they would put the team over the salary cap in that year, then the part that puts the team over the cap gets moved to the following year) earned in a league year counts against the player's share of earnings in that league year.  And all of those earned $'s go into what the player nominally earns in a particular year and there are still limitations on how much salary can vary from year to year.  The player's contract can't be overly front nor back loaded.

2.  A signing bonus (that isn't accompanied with a NMC/NTC) ends up making a player much more tradable because salary cap salary gets charged against the cap each day of the regular season.  So, if a guy got 90% of his contract in a salary bonus; then the next team gets 100% of the cap hit for the rest of that league year after the trade, but only has to pay the guy 10% of that contract's remaining value.

3.  Ordinary course buy-outs happen at the end of a league year; so his stuff about a player becoming unbuyoutable by having a signing bonus which starts on the 1st day of the new league year doesn't really come into play.  UNLESS the team has arbitration hearings and they then can buy-out salaries during the league year, or if the team and player agree to terminate the contract, or if the team is terminating the contract for cause.  But in that very last case, the club could likely win a suit to claw back a portion of that current season's signing bonus.  So, he's likely right in rare cases, but in general, don't believe it will actually factor in to a decision to buy-out a player or not.  Teams buy-out the remaining years of a contract, not the current year of a contract (for most cases; not counting the few exceptions already described).  EDIT: While all that is technically correct, it looks like signing bonuses are treated differently than other salary with regards to buy-outs; the "signing bonus" regardless of which league year it is due in apparently is considered to have already been earned at the time the contract was signed, so it is NOT subject to ordinary course buy-out haircutting.  So, having a signing bonus does appear to guarantee a player additional money should his contract get bought out. 

4.  He is right that a team that doesn't want a cash flow hit, like the Sabres seem be in that category, will be less inclined to give a signing bonus than one that doesn't care.

5.  Signing bonuses can be offered in particular years, all years, or no years during the duration of a contract.  Players traditionally tried to include large signing bonuses in years that the CBA is expected to expire as a form of lockout/strike protection.  The player can get through a lockout a lot easier if he's already been paid.  And signing bonuses can also vary in how big they are too yearly.

6.  And, yes, once the player has the money in pocket, he can be trying to put it to work for himself having it earn additional money; but at most he's getting 1 year of time with a fraction of that money.  So, it isn't quite the boon that he makes it out to be.  It's not like the NFL where a player gets the signing bonus today and it gets charged against the cap over a series of years.  Again, that signing bonus counts against league player's total salary in the year it is earned and the total earned salary that year needs to be close enough to what the player is earning in other years to keep the contract compliant with cap rules.  Tuch isn't goint to get $39MM in signing bonus in year 1 with $1MM in salary that year; get $10MM in salary in years 2, 3, and 4 and then get $2.5MM in salary in each of the final 4 years of the deal.  Those Christian Ehrhoff style deals don't exist anymore.

Edited 21 hours ago by Taro T

[DarthEbriate]

With regards to "buyout proofing" - my understanding is it's not about preventing the buyout, it's about preserving the cash coming to the player post-buyout. The signing bonus are essentially the player's guaranteed money, while the base salary is what gets cut down to 2/3 or 1/3 after the buyout.

So, the contrast Skinner's recently bought-out Sabres contract (2 signing bonus seasons of $7.5M = $15M guaranteed  https://capwages.com/players/jeff-skinner 
What was left of his $57M base was subject to the 2/3 reduction.

vs. Necas' new deal with Colorado (signing bonuses each season to the sum of $60.4M, even if bought out https://capwages.com/players/martin-necas And he only has the buyout reduction applied to up to $31M in remaining base salary.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, DarthEbriate said:

With regards to "buyout proofing" - my understanding is it's not about preventing the buyout, it's about preserving the cash coming to the player post-buyout. The signing bonus are essentially the player's guaranteed money, while the base salary is what gets cut down to 2/3 or 1/3 after the buyout.

So, the contrast Skinner's recently bought-out Sabres contract (2 signing bonus seasons of $7.5M = $15M guaranteed  https://capwages.com/players/jeff-skinner 
What was left of his $57M base was subject to the 2/3 reduction.

vs. Necas' new deal with Colorado (signing bonuses each season to the sum of $60.4M, even if bought out https://capwages.com/players/martin-necas And he only has the buyout reduction applied to up to $31M in remaining base salary.

Interesting.  Thanks for that.

Will stand corrected on this.  The way the 2013 CBA is written, it reads that all salary due in an individual year would get prorated to either 1/3, 2/3, or in rare cases 3/3's should a buy-out occur.  But it appears based on what you'd linked and a couple other sites that signing bonuses become guaranteed when the contract is signed even though the money can be deferred within the contract.  Deferred bonuses expliciitly muut be paid after the contract runs out.  

Very interesting.  Not the 1st item that is addressed in a manner that seems to contradict what is in the CBA; doubt it'll be the last.

Again, thank you for that.

🍺

[Pimlach]

Kempe signed.  Tuch will get 8 years x $10M from somebody.  

[kas23]

37 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Kempe signed.  Tuch will get 8 years x $10M from somebody.  

Except he can’t get an 8 year contract. He can get a 6 year. All being equal, that would be $20M less than he could get from the Sabres. 

[DarthEbriate]

12 minutes ago, kas23 said:

Except he can’t get an 8 year contract. He can get a 6 year. All being equal, that would be $20M less than he could get from the Sabres. 

He could...  if he's traded or some form of sign/trade or with an extension announced as part of the offer so the Sabres get a bit more in the return.

[Brawndo]

From Pierre LeBrun

 

Tuch, Sabres face sizeable gap in talks

Adrian Kempe’s extension this week further clarified the evolving forward market for UFAs. The next man up on that dwindling pending UFA list is Alex Tuch.

My understanding is that there remains a sizeable gap in positions in those talks. Which is to say I don’t think Buffalo has gone to double digits on the AAV yet. And I mean, who’s to say if the Sabres ultimately will?

Neither side has shut down talks, though, and both are willing to pick up the conversation at any time. For now, those talks are status quo.

Edited 2 hours ago by Brawndo

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

From Pierre LeBrun

 

Tuch, Sabres face sizeable gap in talks

Adrian Kempe’s extension this week further clarified the evolving forward market for UFAs. The next man up on that dwindling pending UFA list is Alex Tuch.

My understanding is that there remains a sizeable gap in positions in those talks. Which is to say I don’t think Buffalo has gone to double digits on the AAV yet. And I mean, who’s to say if the Sabres ultimately will?

Neither side has shut down talks, though, and both are willing to pick up the conversation at any time. For now, those talks are status quo.

the avv doesn't worry me as much as the length. If it is 10mil x8yrs... idk how I feel about that.

[That Aud Smell]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

From Pierre LeBrun

 

Tuch, Sabres face sizeable gap in talks

Adrian Kempe’s extension this week further clarified the evolving forward market for UFAs. The next man up on that dwindling pending UFA list is Alex Tuch.

My understanding is that there remains a sizeable gap in positions in those talks. Which is to say I don’t think Buffalo has gone to double digits on the AAV yet. And I mean, who’s to say if the Sabres ultimately will?

Neither side has shut down talks, though, and both are willing to pick up the conversation at any time. For now, those talks are status quo.

This is a difficult situation for the franchise.

Yes, the playoff drought, fan disaffection, and Tuch being a heart and soul top-6 guy with hometown cred.

But also, they're dealing with a 29 year-old player who's going to ask for an 8-year term. 

I just have no faith in Adams to navigate this properly.

[That Aud Smell]

37 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

the avv doesn't worry me as much as the length. If it is 10mil x8yrs... idk how I feel about that.

does a rising cap essentially take care of that on the back end?

i'm late to this party. kempe's 29 as well?

is he way better than tuch? i have no idea.

if they're arguably comparable, then the sabres have no leverage.

where's darcy and the proverbial wait for the market to set itself?

[DarthEbriate]

20 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

does a rising cap essentially take care of that on the back end?

i'm late to this party. kempe's 29 as well?

is he way better than tuch? i have no idea.

if they're arguably comparable, then the sabres have no leverage.

where's darcy and the proverbial wait for the market to set itself?

The market is set. Tuch is half a year older, but both are 29. Top-line wingers on their team for 5 years running (except at times when TNT isn't at center). Kempe is the slightly better scorer.

Since Tuch joined the Sabres, Kempe has played in 38 more games, but otherwise they are close. Kempe has a much higher shot volume (he gets the shots on net, and not rimming around the boards and out of the zone, hey-oh!)

https://www.sports-reference.com/stathead/hockey/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2022&year_max=2026&player_id1=tuchal01&player_id2=kempead01 

Kempe
GP 338    145-143-288  +58   PIM 223    PPG 30    SHG 10    GWG 25    1046 SOG     point share 34.3

Tuch
GP 300    113-146-259   +38   PIM 166    PPG 15    SHG 10    GWG 20    790 SOG      ps 28.4

[That Aud Smell]

super helpful - thanks, @DarthEbriate.

kempe appears to be a tick better?

tuch's gotta be sitting on 8x$10M. and maybe he'd give the team a bit of relief with something like 8 x $9.875 with a side deal for tuch to be a no-show foreman at some fracking wells. (hey, why should the NBA have all the fun with cap-circumventing side deals?)