GDT: Sabres @ Rangers - 7:30pm, Dec. 23, 2023, MSG/ESPN+📺 WBEN930 📻

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Dangerous and late on a vulnerable player. It wasn't late. Have you watched a replay? Next the NHL requires a player to be defenseless for a boarding penalty to be imposed, which is a fair bit different than vulnerable. Was Ryan Johnson defenseless? That would suggest he had no idea he was about to be hit. I think he knew it. He did react. So IMHO he was vulnerable but not defenseless. The NHL then needs to see that the hit is violent or dangerous. As usual these are murky terms in the rulebook. All hits to some degree are violent and or dangerous. Do we want all hits where the player being hit contacts the boards to be a penalty? Of course not. The Ranger did not charge the Sabre. He didn't leap into him. He didn't target the head. The contact was on the upper chest. There was no elbow. The Sabre was close to the boards, but was not propelled into the boards in an especially dangerous way. In every sense of the word and the rules, it was a clean hit. Ole Punch should just admit he's come around to the 2023 worldview that clean hits must be avenged.

Two more things. Most including print journalist for the Sabres Lance L. are conveniently leaving out Erik Johnson's laying the wood on the Ranger after the hit. That's the extra two. Then, this idea that the Sabres whine to the refs makes me dislike them even more.

The refs are against us. The losing culture is so engrained in the team and fans.

To me it was late, and it was high.  You have watched enough hockey to know this was a big guy taking run at a rookie to intimidate him.  That is exactly what this was.  The purpose of a hockey check is to separate a player from the puck in effort to gain possession of it for your team- Johnson had already sent the puck up the boards.  The hit did not in any way meet the stated purpose of a check by NHL rule because it came after the puck was sent up the boards.  

So it was a late, since Johnson clearly does not have the puck when the hit occurred, leading to another judgement call  - how late is late?   I was also high, another judgement call - how high is high?  Looking at it at full speed, which the ref has to do - it was possibly late, possibly high, and was also very close to boarding and charging and roughing - all of it let go.    All five possible outcomes that would give Buffalo a PP were let go.   

So the ref chose to not call it.  I was OK with that, but not with any of the rest that followed.  A referee CANNOT call Buffalo for the extra 2 and an extra 10 and a game, and then explain it as they were bothering him by mouthing off in the period prior.   That is worse than a make up call, it was an "I'll show you" call?   That is a problem that I am not fine with.  He basically stated he had a bias.  If you cannot understand this then maybe you just want to rail on the Sabres?  

Of course this has nothing to do with losing culture,  the guy who "instigated" the fight is not a long time Sabre.  He is a long time NHL vet, with no track record of instigating fights, that plays the game the way most other teams play it.  

I am watching a lot of hockey games and the officiating is wildly inconsistent.  It  was a problem in NY that night for sure.  We didn't get a PP until the final 3 minutes and then it was negated quickly by a call on Buffalo.  We outplayed them for long stretches and the Rangers never once held, hooked, tripped, or cross checked - that is amazing for them.  

I will close by saying that EJ's response is exactly what this team needs to keep doing.  EJ knows how its done because he comes from a winning culture.  I never want to see a Lucic-Miller incident get let go again.  

Oh, Merry Christmas too.  

Edited December 26, 2023 by Pimlach

[SwampD]

21 hours ago, Brawndo said:

 

I needed to circle back to this. If the ref said this, then how can anyone justify a single thing that ref called afterward. He's telling the world that he is biased and doesn't care about the rules, and because he got butthurt earlier, he called the penalty.

Ridiculous,… but completely common and expected at this point.

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I understand your bigger point, but up through that game Cozens has 7 points through 11 games, just over a 50 point pace.

Since then he has 12 points in 22 games, about a 45 point pace.  He hasn't been setting the world in fire recently, and honestly he wasn't even before he got hurt.

My point about Cozens needlessly dropping the gloves is that it didn't help the team and it resulted him in getting hurt. How was dropping his gloves beneficial? What if he broke his hand that kept him out longer or suffered a season plaguing concussion.  How would you respond to that? 

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

You’re talking about fighting.  I’m talking about the missed call on the boarding, the abusive call on the Sabres for the extra 2 minutes, the ridiculous extra misconduct calls resulting in 37 minutes plus a game on the Sabres - all because the ref missed a dangerous and late hit on a vulnerable player.   They now say they were upset because we were running our mouths in the first period.  All this after the NHL said they were cracking down on boarding (missed Kane hit) when they gave Eric Robinson a game misconduct.   Only to see the officiating miss yet another call a week later when a player got hurt on a boarding.   

After all that,  you sarcastically asked me if they should beat up the refs.   I gave you several options to address bad officiating.   

I will explain this once more.  The missed call on the Ryan Johnson hit led to the fight.  Fighting is all but eliminated in the NHL, but you still see it, mostly when a team feels the officials did not do their job.  Then the team will respond.  I support that.  The alternative is Lucic-Miller.   I won’t support or respect a team that does not support themselves.  

If you advocate for fighting in certain situations, then do you advocate it for football and basketball? Do you believe that it should be a part of the college or Olympic games. If not, why not? 

There are always missed calls in the pro ranks, in all sports. You act as if inconsistent officiating is an unusual occurrence. I would argue the opposite: That it is more the standard than it is not. Responding to bad calls in an unproductive manner doesn't help you, it hurts you. Do you complain when bad officiating benefits your team? I don't! Inconsistent officiating certainly is aggravating and agitating when it hurts your team. But that's part of the game. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Where were you to defend Robinson’s BS ejection the other night. Your need to appear to be fair and balanced is kinda funny.

And other than Cuylle leaving his feet, which he did do (anyone who says both feet didn't leave the ice isn't watching), it was a clean hit and by the rules, an instigator penalty was warranted. I'm just wondering why the same was(or ever) not applied when it's the Sabres who do the hitting.

I thought this game was poorly officiated. That's not an unusual occurrence in the NHL. However, are you arguing that the Sabres never benefit from bad calls and non-calls that favor them? 

[SwampD]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I thought this game was poorly officiated. That's not an unusual occurrence in the NHL. However, are you arguing that the Sabres never benefit from bad calls and non-calls that favor them? 

By using the term never, you have loaded the question.

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

My point about Cozens needlessly dropping the gloves is that it didn't help the team and it resulted him in getting hurt. How was dropping his gloves beneficial? What if he broke his hand that kept him out longer or suffered a season plaguing concussion.  How would you respond to that? 

I'm responding to the fact that you said he was a lot worse after the injury than before...he wans't all that great before the injury.

I NEVER said dropping his gloves was beneficial. Again, I just said he was playing bad both before AND after his injury. Its not like he was playing even close to how he was the year before.

And how would I respond to that? I really wouldn't, i'm not disagreeing with you on most of your points,

Edited December 25, 2023 by mjd1001

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

By using the term never, you have loaded the question.

The word never in my prior comment is not a loaded word. There are games where the erratic officiating benefits us at the expense of the opposition. And there are games where erratic officiating benefits the opposition at our expense. That's a part of the sports world that will always exist. 

I thought the game was poorly called. From my perspective it seemed to tilt toward the Rangers. Did the calls result in us not coming away with a win? Not necessarily. The difference in this game was the play of their elite goalie. There are games where the officiating tilts toward the opposition; and there are games where the officiating tilt toward the Sabres. That's an inescapable aspect of all sports. My point regarding the officiating issue in this game or any game is that you play on and control what you can control. 

Johnson's manufactured fight didn't help us. It hurt us because the team was forced to PK instead of possibly create some scoring chances on 5 on 5. The Skinner 10 minute unsportsman's penalty ended up taking one of our best goal scorers out of action for 10 minutes in a close game. 

It's frustrating to say but erratic officiating is part of all sports at every level. The best way to handle it is to play through it and not allow yourself to get frustrated to the point where you take yourself out of the action. 

 

[inkman]

Merry Christmas?  Sheesh. 

[PASabreFan]

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

Where were you to defend Robinson’s BS ejection the other night. Your need to appear to be fair and balanced is kinda funny.

And other than Cuylle leaving his feet, which he did do (anyone who says both feet didn't leave the ice isn't watching), it was a clean hit and by the rules, an instigator penalty was warranted. I'm just wondering why the same was(or ever) not applied when it's the Sabres who do the hitting.

It's funny that Punch agreed with this post. He took me to task for agreeing with Robinson's penalty.

Wow the eggnog must have really been spiked this year.

[Pimlach]

42 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

It's funny that Punch agreed with this post. He took me to task for agreeing with Robinson's penalty.

Wow the eggnog must have really been spiked this year.

But I wished you a Merry Christmas. 
 

And rest assured, I won’t ruin my top shelf Scotch or Bourbon with eggnog. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Pimlach

[SwampD]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

The word never in my prior comment is not a loaded word. There are games where the erratic officiating benefits us at the expense of the opposition. And there are games where erratic officiating benefits the opposition at our expense. That's a part of the sports world that will always exist. 

I thought the game was poorly called. From my perspective it seemed to tilt toward the Rangers. Did the calls result in us not coming away with a win? Not necessarily. The difference in this game was the play of their elite goalie. There are games where the officiating tilts toward the opposition; and there are games where the officiating tilt toward the Sabres. That's an inescapable aspect of all sports. My point regarding the officiating issue in this game or any game is that you play on and control what you can control. 

Johnson's manufactured fight didn't help us. It hurt us because the team was forced to PK instead of possibly create some scoring chances on 5 on 5. The Skinner 10 minute unsportsman's penalty ended up taking one of our best goal scorers out of action for 10 minutes in a close game. 

It's frustrating to say but erratic officiating is part of all sports at every level. The best way to handle it is to play through it and not allow yourself to get frustrated to the point where you take yourself out of the action. 

 

This is such a load. We hear this all the time and we’re supposed to just believe it cuz you said it with such confidence. It’s BS. Show us examples. And not just bad calls. There are always bad calls. I want to see the non calls. They are what change games (and what explicitly commented on by the official on Saturday. He wouldn’t have made the call but for the bee in his bonnet. Which means he would not have called it on a team that he sees fit.) Show me examples where the game was going one way, but the refs changed it in our favor by letting something go.

Merry Christmas, but the whole “the refs are completely unbiased and it all evens out” narrative is annoying. Even worse is being told that we have actually benefited. I’m going to need proof, not just platitudes.

[SwampD]

And JFTR, I didn’t see the rest game, only the whole hit and fight part. I had zero problem with any of those penalty’s or “non calls”, just the refs reason for giving them.

[SwampD]

And JRTR #2, it’s not just the Sabres. I watch a lot (too much, if there is such a thing) of hockey and there are other teams that don’t get the benefit of the doubt, either. There are MFTs (most favored teams.) It’s just the way it is. I don’t even get upset about it anymore. The only time I get mad is when someone tries to tell me it doesn’t exist.

Edited December 26, 2023 by SwampD

[JohnC]

9 hours ago, SwampD said:

And JRTR #2, it’s not just the Sabres. I watch a lot (too much, if there is such a thing) of hockey and there are other teams that don’t get the benefit of the doubt, either. There are MFTs (most favored teams.) It’s just the way it is. I don’t even get upset about it anymore. The only time I get mad is when someone tries to tell me it doesn’t exist.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending. But if you don't believe that there are games in which the Sabres benefit from bad calls or non-calls, then there is little basis to discuss this topic. There were certainly questionable calls in this game. I'm not arguing otherwise. However, the Sabres didn't lose the game because of them. The Sabres lost because the opposition had the better goalie who made a number of exceptional stops. We had more than enough opportunities to win regardless of the caliber of officiating. We simply didn't capitalize on them because their goalie was up to the task. 

[PASabreFan]

45 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending. But if you don't believe that there are games in which the Sabres benefit from bad calls or non-calls, then there is little basis to discuss this topic. There were certainly questionable calls in this game. I'm not arguing otherwise. However, the Sabres didn't lose the game because of them. The Sabres lost because the opposition had the better goalie who made a number of exceptional stops. We had more than enough opportunities to win regardless of the caliber of officiating. We simply didn't capitalize on them because their goalie was up to the task. 

Go to an opposing team's message board after the Sabres beat them. You'll be in SS Bizzaro World.

Of course the Sabres get calls.

You hit the nail on the head. There are no excuses to be made for Buffalo having another losing season. The fans I can kind of understand. The team? As Lindy said, that's a joooke.

Edited December 26, 2023 by PASabreFan

[PASabreFan]

10 hours ago, SwampD said:

And JFTR, I didn’t see the rest game, only the whole hit and fight part. I had zero problem with any of those penalty’s or “non calls”, just the refs reason for giving them.

I'd be careful about believing hearsay. It's hard to believe a ref would admit something like that. "You guys have been crying all night!" Maybe.

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

I'd be careful about believing hearsay. It's hard to believe a ref would admit something like that. "You guys have been crying all night!" Maybe.

Gottit. Believe your hypothetical over what the actual player said, at the risk of being fined.

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending. But if you don't believe that there are games in which the Sabres benefit from bad calls or non-calls, then there is little basis to discuss this topic. There were certainly questionable calls in this game. I'm not arguing otherwise. However, the Sabres didn't lose the game because of them. The Sabres lost because the opposition had the better goalie who made a number of exceptional stops. We had more than enough opportunities to win regardless of the caliber of officiating. We simply didn't capitalize on them because their goalie was up to the task. 

I, too, never argued otherwise.

In fact, I'd have to go back and check (I'm not going to), but I haven't blamed a single loss this year on officiating. There have been bad calls for and against, and even worse non calls for or against, but mostly, there has just been bad hockey by the Sabres.

Edited December 26, 2023 by SwampD

[SwampD]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condescending. But if you don't believe that there are games in which the Sabres benefit from bad calls or non-calls, then there is little basis to discuss this topic. There were certainly questionable calls in this game. I'm not arguing otherwise. However, the Sabres didn't lose the game because of them. The Sabres lost because the opposition had the better goalie who made a number of exceptional stops. We had more than enough opportunities to win regardless of the caliber of officiating. We simply didn't capitalize on them because their goalie was up to the task. 

 

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Go to an opposing team's message board after the Sabres beat them. You'll be in SS Bizzaro World.

Of course the Sabres get calls.

You hit the nail on the head. There are no excuses to be made for Buffalo having another losing season. The fans I can kind of understand. The team? As Lindy said, that's a joooke.

Seems like you both like to keep moving the goalposts. 

[PASabreFan]

49 minutes ago, SwampD said:

 

Seems like you both like to keep moving the goalposts. 

The league has MFTs, and the refs do the league's bidding. But the NHL is not rigged, and the Sabres and their fans should not use this fact as an excuse for losing. Got it.

One day you will say that the NHL is fake. On that same day Taro will reveal his super secret info. proving that Bettmann orchestrated No Goal, the CIA will announce that a young Fred Rogers was the second shooter and Temptations cat treats will announce the ingredient that makes kitties go crazy for it.

[SwampD]

28 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

The league has MFTs, and the refs do the league's bidding. But the NHL is not rigged, and the Sabres and their fans should not use this fact as an excuse for losing. Got it.

One day you will say that the NHL is fake. On that same day Taro will reveal his super secret info. proving that Bettmann orchestrated No Goal, the CIA will announce that a young Fred Rogers was the second shooter and Temptations cat treats will announce the ingredient that makes kitties go crazy for it.

Who are you arguing with and what are you arguing? Do you even know anymore.

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

 

In fact, I'd have to go back and check (I'm not going to), but I haven't blamed a single loss this year on officiating. There have been bad calls for and against, and even worse non calls for or against, but mostly, there has just been bad hockey by the Sabres.

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by SwampD

[TageMVP]

With all this talk about penalties against the Sabres I will say this. I've noticed while looking through the box scores of every game played, the Sabres seem to have twice as many penalties called against them. Not sure why, could be legitimate. However, I do not see how one team could always have more penalties than the other in every single game. That seems off. 

Having said that, is that a good excuse for not winning games? Of course not. The power play stinks anyway and losing to teams like Columbus and Arizona is unacceptable. Especially when they don't play hard. Which is exactly what they did. 

Bottom line, the Sabres need to start playing better and winning right now. This break is a perfect time to go on a winning streak, even a 4 to 5 game winning streak puts them right back into the playoff conversation.