If Eichel is traded, what is your desired package?

[Thorny]

12 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Do you mean that Vanek was more talented than Drury was, or that Vanek would improve this team more than Drury would?  Or both?  If your meaning was that Vanek would improve this team more than Drury would, I could not disagree more.

I agree that guys like ROR, who are significant contributors to good teams, have drowned and will continue to drown in the Sabres' current suckitude, and I would expect the same will occur with Eichel and Reino if they are traded to good teams -- i.e. they will be good contributors on those teams.  But the ROR example kinda proves my point -- i.e. he's a talented guy who wasn't a blood-and-guts leader type, and he made very little difference in the on-ice results here. 

That doesn't mean that trading ROR was the right move, or that trading Eichel and/or Reino will make the team better, as I agree with you that talent is needed for a team to succeed.  But I think at this point in time this team needs heart, determination and leadership more than it needs pure talent.  It needs Drury much more than it needs Vanek.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/video/ryan-oreillys-patience-leadership-pushes-st-louis-blues-stanley-cup

Nah, it doesn't prove your point, it proves mine - ROR wasn't really lacking the leadership traits, they were just irrelevant because of the talent gap

"As the Blues fell into last place during January of the regular season, the leadership of Ryan O'Reilly helped to propel their turnaround and Stanley Cup Final run."

Say it with me: It's. all. bogus. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

I want 

Boldy, Fiala, Eriksson Ek, Foligno/prospect/other roster player

Or something of that nature.

The overall profile of my desired trade depends on the team involved, different age or position distributions are possible 

Lindholm Tkachuk prospect and a 2nd

Don't care much for a trade with LA or NYR

 

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I want 

Boldy, Fiala, Eriksson Ek, Foligno/prospect/other roster player

Or something of that nature.

The overall profile of my desired trade depends on the team involved, different age or position distributions are possible 

Lindholm Tkachuk prospect and a 2nd

Don't care much for a trade with LA or NYR

 

Not caring to trade with LA is insane 

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Not caring to trade with LA is insane 

Im meh on Byfield and turcotte. Other prospects I've barely heard of, and then the younger nhl guys like kempe have that stale feel because they were pumped up 5 years ago but never reached the level hoped for. Very rigorous analysis, yes

[nfreeman]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Adding Drury on his own wouldn't do anything.

Doubt me? We have a player as talented as Jack Eichel on this roster and that talent has translated to literally nothing in the standings. You think Drury's "little league world series" leadership narrative would make a dent? Drury's "intangibles" are going to succeed where Eichel's "talent" could not? 

Bogus. 

We've literally seen for years how easily a player's positive contributions can be swallowed up because of the nature of an NHL roster - the rest of the roster matters too much. Drury's positives would be swallowed up as well. 

Drury's "intangibles" only got the positive light of day because of rest of the roster around him was built to succeed. Add that to today's roster and it wouldn't matter one iota. 

Again, you're making my point for me.  The talent isn't enough without the heart and the determination (although I'm glad to see that you're at least not going to claim, despite 2 invitations, that Vanek would be better for this team than Drury would be).

Let's examine some facts:

- The Sabres lost Dominik in 2001.  They immediately fell out of the playoffs the following season and finished with 82 points. 

- The season after that, they were 5th-worst in the NHL with 72 points.  Their leading scorer was Miro with 75 pts, followed by Gratton with 44 and Kotalik and Dumont with 35 each.  Not exactly a roster "built to succeed."

- That summer (2003), they traded for Drury.  They immediately improved to 85 points.  Their leading scorers were Briere (also a huge addition) with 65 pts, followed by Miro, who dropped to 57 pts, and Dumont, who improved to 53 pts (in 1 more game than the previous year), and Drury, also with 53.   Their goalies were the same as the prior year -- Marty and Noronen, as was their coach.  Again, not a roster "built to succeed" -- but something happened to trigger a major improvement.

- The following season, they improved to 110 pts and 5th in the NHL.  Their leading scorers were Max, who improved from 31 pts to 73 pts (placing 44th in NHL scoring), Drury with 67, Kotalik with 62 (up from 26) and Briere with 58. 

Drury led them out of the darkness.  Certainly there were plenty of others (Lindy, Miller, Briere, etc.) that played major roles -- but this wasn't a case of major stars out-talenting the opposition. 

Also relevant:  I don't remember where I read it, but 17 of the top 18 highest paid forwards are out of the NHL playoffs.

It takes a LOT more than talent.

 

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/video/ryan-oreillys-patience-leadership-pushes-st-louis-blues-stanley-cup

Nah, it doesn't prove your point, it proves mine - ROR wasn't really lacking the leadership traits, they were just irrelevant because of the talent gap

"As the Blues fell into last place during January of the regular season, the leadership of Ryan O'Reilly helped to propel their turnaround and Stanley Cup Final run."

Say it with me: It's. all. bogus. 

Seriously?  You're quoting one word from an NBCSN video to make your point?  About a guy who forced himself off of 2 different teams?

Weak sauce.

[Thorny]

36 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Again, you're making my point for me.  The talent isn't enough without the heart and the determination (although I'm glad to see that you're at least not going to claim, despite 2 invitations, that Vanek would be better for this team than Drury would be).

Let's examine some facts:

- The Sabres lost Dominik in 2001.  They immediately fell out of the playoffs the following season and finished with 82 points. 

- The season after that, they were 5th-worst in the NHL with 72 points.  Their leading scorer was Miro with 75 pts, followed by Gratton with 44 and Kotalik and Dumont with 35 each.  Not exactly a roster "built to succeed."

- That summer (2003), they traded for Drury.  They immediately improved to 85 points.  Their leading scorers were Briere (also a huge addition) with 65 pts, followed by Miro, who dropped to 57 pts, and Dumont, who improved to 53 pts (in 1 more game than the previous year), and Drury, also with 53.   Their goalies were the same as the prior year -- Marty and Noronen, as was their coach.  Again, not a roster "built to succeed" -- but something happened to trigger a major improvement.

- The following season, they improved to 110 pts and 5th in the NHL.  Their leading scorers were Max, who improved from 31 pts to 73 pts (placing 44th in NHL scoring), Drury with 67, Kotalik with 62 (up from 26) and Briere with 58. 

Drury led them out of the darkness.  Certainly there were plenty of others (Lindy, Miller, Briere, etc.) that played major roles -- but this wasn't a case of major stars out-talenting the opposition. 

Also relevant:  I don't remember where I read it, but 17 of the top 18 highest paid forwards are out of the NHL playoffs.

It takes a LOT more than talent.

 

Seriously?  You're quoting one word from an NBCSN video to make your point?  About a guy who forced himself off of 2 different teams?

Weak sauce.

And we improved to 81 points with ROR. It's the same thing. 

Leaving context out also doesn't help your argument. Briere had 58 in 48 that year we took the big jump - a pace better than Jack Eichel's best. 

And you left out Miller. 30 dub season that year. 

It was Drury's *talent* that was his biggest contributing factor, you are missing the fact I'm not saying he wasn't a significant catalyst, among other significant catalysts 

- - - 

For the bold: I literally just picked the first google link. I could flood the thread with articles about the leadership ROR brought to that team. 

Do you want me to do that? lol

Actually - this one is fun, just for fun 

- - - 

https://puckprose.com/2020/12/22/ryan-oreilly-ticks-every-single-box-as-next-st-louis-blues-captain/

"Yes, Torey Krug, who walked away from the Boston Bruins in order to sign a seven-year, $45,500,00 deal with the Blues, will help to fill some of the void left by Pietrangelo, but replacing the latter’s leadership was going to be a tough row to hoe.

And that’s why Ryan O’Reilly is the perfect choice as the next Captain of the St. Louis Blues.

He ticks every single box when it comes to what you want from a leader on and off the ice, and he’s already established himself as the heartbeat of this franchise just three years after that blockbuster trade with the Buffalo Sabres."

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thorny

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Do you mean that Vanek was more talented than Drury was, or that Vanek would improve this team more than Drury would?  Or both?  If your meaning was that Vanek would improve this team more than Drury would, I could not disagree more.

I agree that guys like ROR, who are significant contributors to good teams, have drowned and will continue to drown in the Sabres' current suckitude, and I would expect the same will occur with Eichel and Reino if they are traded to good teams -- i.e. they will be good contributors on those teams.  But the ROR example kinda proves my point -- i.e. he's a talented guy who wasn't a blood-and-guts leader type, and he made very little difference in the on-ice results here. 

That doesn't mean that trading ROR was the right move, or that trading Eichel and/or Reino will make the team better, as I agree with you that talent is needed for a team to succeed.  But I think at this point in time this team needs heart, determination and leadership more than it needs pure talent.  It needs Drury much more than it needs Vanek.

 

 

https://theathletic.com/2517371/2021/04/27/the-passion-and-pain-of-being-ryan-oreilly-the-blues-captain-cant-stop-caring-i-think-thats-who-i-am/

"The passion and pain of being Ryan O’Reilly: The Blues captain can’t stop caring — ‘I think that’s who I am’"

- - -

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/ben-frederickson/benfred-captain-controversy-no-chance-oreilly-aces-first-test-as-blues-top-leader/article_50628def-00b0-5df4-ba75-44ebbbfc68ea.html

- - - 

Finally, with a quote from his Coach, Craig Berube: (I assume a quote from his own coach is strong enough sauce?)

https://www.nhl.com/news/forward-ryan-oreilly-named-captain-st-louis-blues/c-319869712

"Ryan's work ethic on and off the ice and his commitment day in and day out is second to none," coach Craig Berube said. "He leads by example with how hard he works during practices and our games and he relays the right message from our coaching staff to our entire team."

Edited June 2, 2021 by Thorny

[DarthEbriate]

Some of these wants are little high. I mean, yes, ask for the world for a 1C. But here is a player who has never played every game in a season and is often playing injured (at the end of the COVID season he was playing hurt and finished with 1 point in his last 8 games). He currently has a neck injury. He has been criticized for possibly getting Bylsma fired, being referred to as GM Eichel a couple years ago, and is now has a "disconnect" with management regarding said neck injury. On ice, he's never led his team to the playoffs, is regarded as a PP specialist and while improving defensively never going to be considered a stalwart in his end, and has often been criticized for poor body language. He's being paid like a superstar in a flat cap world for the next couple seasons, and his NMC will kick in by the time the cap rises.

We have to hope that a meddling owner (ala Knicks-style Dorian) is ga-ga over Eichel and is telling their GM to get him no matter the cost. Because any self-preserving GM shouldn't be giving up a huge package solely of futures and NHL-ready but young studs for a player with this many flags. They'd also better be clearing their cap for the next few years.

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, DarthEbriate said:

Some of these wants are little high. I mean, yes, ask for the world for a 1C. But here is a player who has never played every game in a season and is often playing injured (at the end of the COVID season he was playing hurt and finished with 1 point in his last 8 games). He currently has a neck injury. He has been criticized for possibly getting Bylsma fired, being referred to as GM Eichel a couple years ago, and is now has a "disconnect" with management regarding said neck injury. On ice, he's never led his team to the playoffs, is regarded as a PP specialist and while improving defensively never going to be considered a stalwart in his end, and has often been criticized for poor body language. He's being paid like a superstar in a flat cap world for the next couple seasons, and his NMC will kick in by the time the cap rises.

We have to hope that a meddling owner (ala Knicks-style Dorian) is ga-ga over Eichel and is telling their GM to get him no matter the cost. Because any self-preserving GM shouldn't be giving up a huge package solely of futures and NHL-ready but young studs for a player with this many flags. They'd also better be clearing their cap for the next few years.

Tell me you live inside the Buffalo media sabres bubble without telling me you live inside the Buffalo media sabres bubble. 

[LGR4GM]

Everyone outside of Buffalo looks at Eichel and says "poor guy being on that ***** team"

[inkman]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

And we improved to 81 points with ROR. It's the same thing. 

Leaving context out also doesn't help your argument. Briere had 58 in 48 that year we took the big jump - a pace better than Jack Eichel's best. 

And you left out Miller. 30 dub season that year. 

It was Drury's *talent* that was his biggest contributing factor, you are missing the fact I'm not saying he wasn't a significant catalyst, among other significant catalysts 

- - - 

For the bold: I literally just picked the first google link. I could flood the thread with articles about the leadership ROR brought to that team. 

Do you want me to do that? lol

Actually - this one is fun, just for fun 

- - - 

https://puckprose.com/2020/12/22/ryan-oreilly-ticks-every-single-box-as-next-st-louis-blues-captain/

"Yes, Torey Krug, who walked away from the Boston Bruins in order to sign a seven-year, $45,500,00 deal with the Blues, will help to fill some of the void left by Pietrangelo, but replacing the latter’s leadership was going to be a tough row to hoe.

And that’s why Ryan O’Reilly is the perfect choice as the next Captain of the St. Louis Blues.

He ticks every single box when it comes to what you want from a leader on and off the ice, and he’s already established himself as the heartbeat of this franchise just three years after that blockbuster trade with the Buffalo Sabres."

Don’t forget his cool beard!!

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

And we improved to 81 points with ROR. It's the same thing. 

Leaving context out also doesn't help your argument. Briere had 58 in 48 that year we took the big jump - a pace better than Jack Eichel's best. 

And you left out Miller. 30 dub season that year. 

It was Drury's *talent* that was his biggest contributing factor, you are missing the fact I'm not saying he wasn't a significant catalyst, among other significant catalysts 

- - - 

For the bold: I literally just picked the first google link. I could flood the thread with articles about the leadership ROR brought to that team. 

 

It's not the same thing -- more like night and day, in fact.  The improvement to 81 pts with ROR proved out to be a dead-cat bounce, while the initial improvement with Drury proved out to be a steppingstone to becoming an elite team.

I omitted neither Briere nor Miller from my post.  You are right that I didn't give Briere's PPG stat for one of the seasons, but I credited him heavily (twice, in fact).

If it was Drury's talent that was his biggest contributing factor, why will you not say that Vanek, whom you say was more talented than Drury, would be better for this team than Drury was?  How about Derek Roy?  Dany Heatley?  Alexei Yashin?  Jeff Skinner?  Pierre Turgeon?

Speaking of Yashin, who was drafted #1 overall and put up a ton of points, would you rather add him to this Sabres team, or Chara, for whom Yashin was traded?  Which of those 2 was more talented?

Leaving aside the google hits, do you think ROR was/is a good team leader?

Overall, you seem to be making the point that leadership, grit, determination, etc. are just meaningless buzzwords that don't contribute to winning hockey.  Is that right?  If so, how do you explain Toronto again getting bounced early, and 17 of the 18 highest-paid forwards no longer in the playoffs (if I have that right)?

 

 

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Tell me you live inside the Buffalo media sabres bubble without telling me you live inside the Buffalo media sabres bubble. 

If I'm looking to trade for a 10M face-of-the-franchise player for the next 6 seasons and give up a bunch of assets to do so, I'm going to know everything about him. I'm also going to know he does a ton for local hospitals. I'm going to know his favorite foods and his favorite style tandem bike. Etc. Unlike the Sabres, my hypothetical glass-half-Dark-Side GM has a pro scouting department and they're not just watching game film and crunching stats. They're investigating injury history, public relations, teammate relations, etc.

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Everyone outside of Buffalo looks at Eichel and says "poor guy being on that ***** team"

To be fair, they say that about every Sabre who isn't on an ELC and also isn't named Jeff Skinner. Him they simply applaud as having gamed the system and won. Be near home, low expectations, even lower usage minutes, and one of the top salaries in the league.

This is also the worrying part. "Rescuing" a top player from Buffalo is a really cheap enterprise these days. So if I'm outbid, no biggie, but I'm not doing a GMTM and heaping on a bunch more pieces just to land Kane, or ROR, or Fasching.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

It's not the same thing -- more like night and day, in fact.  The improvement to 81 pts with ROR proved out to be a dead-cat bounce, while the initial improvement with Drury proved out to be a steppingstone to becoming an elite team.

I omitted neither Briere nor Miller from my post.  You are right that I didn't give Briere's PPG stat for one of the seasons, but I credited him heavily (twice, in fact).

If it was Drury's talent that was his biggest contributing factor, why will you not say that Vanek, whom you say was more talented than Drury, would be better for this team than Drury was?  How about Derek Roy?  Dany Heatley?  Alexei Yashin?  Jeff Skinner?  Pierre Turgeon?

Speaking of Yashin, who was drafted #1 overall and put up a ton of points, would you rather add him to this Sabres team, or Chara, for whom Yashin was traded?  Which of those 2 was more talented?

Leaving aside the google hits, do you think ROR was/is a good team leader?

Overall, you seem to be making the point that leadership, grit, determination, etc. are just meaningless buzzwords that don't contribute to winning hockey.  Is that right?  If so, how do you explain Toronto again getting bounced early, and 17 of the 18 highest-paid forwards no longer in the playoffs (if I have that right)?

 

 

Don't you think his coach is better qualified to answer that than either of us? Come on dude

And no, my overall point is not the one you lay out there

[Thorny]

This entire debate started under the context of me saying that Messier alone wouldn't resurrect the team based on his leadership abilities, like you seemed to be stating, my point being that even great leadership abilities get swallowed up by a team that has a major dearth in talent - see, ROR's. 

My OG point was that we can't identify the character ingredients necessary in the equation until we satisfy a base talent quota : not that those qualities matter not at all. 

[Ruff Around The Edges]

The biggest key here to me is: If the Sabres have any doubts that Eichel is not all in for the long haul here in Buffalo: That decision needs to be made BEFORE his NMC kicks in.

The absence of a NMC IMO helps negate some of the loss return that might happen given Eichel's injury history, especially now with the neck, and the 10M AAV over 5 years. Cap numbers drive more of a player's value then most realize these days.

Just to be upfront: There is no real way the Sabres can replace Eichel. We may not see a player of this talent level in Buffalo in our lifetime again.

I almost can't believe this is a real possibility, but here we are. Thanks Pegula's for your massive incompetence throughout this. How they screwed this up so badly honestly takes my breath away.

Two trade partners:

1. LA Kings: Many reasons: 1. An almost embarrassment of riches in the system. 2. These pieces are not expensive against the cap and 3. The Sabres would not have to take back a lot of salary back from LA to make this work. Ideal package would involve Turcotte, no questions asked, to be a possible 1C for the long haul.

Ideal Return: (other parts might have to move but here is the meat of what I'm looking for): C Alex Turcotte, D Tobias Bjornfoot, and W Samuel Fagano. 3 pieces. One #1 Center, One Top 6 winger, and another possible top pairing defenseman that won't wow you, but will be a very good, steady overall defenseman for years to come in Bjornfoot.

2. Anaheim: The team that plays in the shadow of LA, perhaps the Ducks would consider this to sell tickets and make a splash. The Ducks aren't as rich in prospects like the Kings, and the Ducks generally build their roster slower, draft well and take their time and arent into the big splash like the Kings, but there are some intriguing options.

Ideal Return:  C Trevor Zegras, F Benoit-Olivier Groulx, 2022 ANH 1st round pick: Zegras is a big time prospect and would be ready to step in right now and will be a #1 center for years to come. Olivier Groulx is an excellent defensive forward that has an offensive game and would be a solid Top 6 guy. 2022 1st for Anaheim could be a huge return if the lottery gods are finally good to us. NOTE: Might have to take back some salary in this deal to work, possibly a Hampus Lindholm at $5.2M AAV.

 

 

 

 

 

[The Jokeman]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Not caring to trade with LA is insane 

The problem with LA as there's no guarantee their prospects be anything more. I want two top 6 forwards back for Jack. That's why think Minnesota a great team to look at as to me Fiala is great starting point since they seem to be strong at LW.

[#freejame]

13 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I don't think you should trade Jack Eichel but if you are going to...

Alex Turcotte (C, because I don't think Byfield will be made available) 

Brock Faber (RHD, currently plays on a pair with Ryan Johnson and is an excellent shutdown defender. He's a high character guy with lots of upside)

Gabriel Vilardi (C, seems pretty decent and could also be shifted to RW. He has some development to do but he can at least immediately be plugged into an NHL lineup)

Arthur Kaliyev (LW, has worked on his game a ton after sliding in his draft year because he didn't play defense. Perfect example of a young player growing parts of their game as they mature)

Adrian Kempe (LW, he is ready to breakout. After 2 years cut short by covid, there is underlying production that says he's going to put up 45pts. Kempe also makes 2mil per year so he helps the Kings cap along with Vilardi's 894k to take almost 3 million from LA while giving them 10mil in Eichel. They have 9.1mil in cap currently)

Finally the Kings 1st round pick in 2022 unprotected (deeper draft)

We trade them Eichel and our 2022 2nd round pick. 

 

Vilardi's back really concerns me. I think he has a lot of potential but backs are really scary and once the pain starts it's always going to be there. I think he had some corrective surgery during his time off, but it is still a worry for me. If we get the 2022 unprotected first without giving up one of our own it is well worth the risk. 

[kas23]

16 hours ago, #freejame said:

Vilardi's back really concerns me. I think he has a lot of potential but backs are really scary and once the pain starts it's always going to be there. I think he had some corrective surgery during his time off, but it is still a worry for me. If we get the 2022 unprotected first without giving up one of our own it is well worth the risk. 

I’m pretty sure most GMs are going to have the same reservations about Eichel’s neck.