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LGR4GM

Sabres Best Defender Right Now?

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5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

In their defence, Risto in the second half of last year and Reino in the first half of the previous year were bad.

It’s when people can’t let go of the slumps that’s the problem. Risto has been fine this year.

He still gets perpetually dumped on while people sing the praises of players who are given easier opportunities to shine. The irony is those players only have a chance to shine precisely because we have guys like Ristolainen and McCabe to carry the water and play the tough minutes.

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I would like to see stats like puck stolen, intercepted, blocked shots, hits, etc

Unfortunately using points and +/- is not a good indicator of how good a defenseman is, it only says his offensive abilities.  In my opinion, I would rather have a defenseman with 15 or 20 points in a season but is very defensive minded, blocking shots, forecheck the puck away, clearing the front of the goalie. To me, that is what makes a good dman

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38 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

He still gets perpetually dumped on while people sing the praises of players who are given easier opportunities to shine. The irony is those players only have a chance to shine precisely because we have guys like Ristolainen and McCabe to carry the water and play the tough minutes.

Why should I be happy that Risto and McCabe suck at playing those tough minutes? 

1 hour ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

The team has a whipping boy every year. Risto has been it and the fans will be out with pitchforks until he is moved. Actually, I cannot say this is always the end result: It's a good thing we didn't listen to the fanbase and trade Reinhart years ago. Remember when he was out of favor?

Nope. But I am biased there.

As for Risto he is constantly terrible at zone exits and entries. He is constantly losing his positioning in the defense zone to either puck chase or puck watch. After 7 years of it, I would like to see him moved. 

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40 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Why should I be happy that Risto and McCabe suck at playing those tough minutes? 

Nope. But I am biased there.

As for Risto he is constantly terrible at zone exits and entries. He is constantly losing his positioning in the defense zone to either puck chase or puck watch. After 7 years of it, I would like to see him moved. 

Do you remember Toni Lydman? EVERY game he would have a major gaffe. And beside that single play in each game, he was rock solid. In my eyes, he was a great defenseman and I loved watching him and learned to accept that one brainfart per game because of what he brought to the table.

Risto -- and I can include McCabe since you mention him -- add a tenacity and grit that would dramatically shift the physicality of the team to virtually soft if you remove one or both from the lineup. Yeah, Eichel threw mitts a couple weeks ago. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a player who is going to keep the opposing team honest. Is this all Risto and McCabe offer? No, but this one is a vital component on a team that is lacking imposing figures.

Good luck in the playoffs -- where the physical nature of the game enters a whole 'nother realm -- when you lack toughness.

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3 minutes ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

Do you remember Toni Lydman? EVERY game he would have a major gaffe. And beside that single play in each game, he was rock solid. In my eyes, he was a great defenseman and I loved watching him and learned to accept that one brainfart per game because of what he brought to the table.

Risto -- and I can include McCabe since you mention him -- add a tenacity and grit that would dramatically shift the physicality of the team to virtually soft if you remove one or both from the lineup. Yeah, Eichel threw mitts a couple weeks ago. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a player who is going to keep the opposing team honest. Is this all Risto and McCabe offer? No, but this one is a vital component on a team that is lacking imposing figures.

Good luck in the playoffs -- where the physical nature of the game enters a whole 'nother realm -- when you lack toughness.

Like when Dahlin had his head taken off and Risto and McCabe did nothing. Or when Sobotka was leveled and they did nothing? That type of honest? 

You want to give Risto and McCabe 14-16 minutes a night, I am perfectly fine with that. But they are a detriment to the team with more than 20minutes a night. Risto has never been able to handle it and never will. He's a #4 defender who can run your PP. 

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Just now, LGR4GM said:

Like when Dahlin had his head taken off and Risto and McCabe did nothing. Or when Sobotka was leveled and they did nothing? That type of honest? 

Fair point, but I don't think McCabe or Risto partner with Dahlin. Do you know who was on the ice when Sobotka was hit?

Because of lines, with this roster, you're not always going to have a tough guy on the ice, but remove those two from the lineup and you'll never have one on the ice.

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3 minutes ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

Fair point, but I don't think McCabe or Risto partner with Dahlin. Do you know who was on the ice when Sobotka was hit?

Because of lines, with this roster, you're not always going to have a tough guy on the ice, but remove those two from the lineup and you'll never have one on the ice.

But you said they were a deterrent. How are they deterring anyone if they were on the ice or off of it and did nothing? 

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2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

But you said they were a deterrent. How are they deterring anyone if they were on the ice or off of it and did nothing? 

I'm not saying Risto or McCabe are Lucic or perhaps Wilson, where as an opposing player, you know you're going to be in the ***** if you pull something, but you remove those two, and you'll hear cries about how soft the team is.

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1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Why should I be happy that Risto and McCabe suck at playing those tough minutes? 

Who said you need to be happy about it or anything? My point is simply that it's much easier for guys like Dahlin and Jokiharju to look good when they aren't doing the heavy lifting. Those guys are being sheltered which helps them look better. I bet Dahlin and Jokiharju's numbers would turn to ***** if they had to put in top minutes with similar usage.

Either that or Ralph Kreuger is a moron and doesn't know what he's doing.

Edited by Drunkard
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5 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Who said you need to be happy about it or anything? My point is simply that it's much easier for guys like Dahlin and Jokiharju to look good when they aren't doing the heavy lifting. Those guys are being sheltered which helps them look better. I bet Dahlin and Jokiharju's numbers would turn to ***** if they had to put in top minutes with similar usage.

Either that or Ralph Kreuger is a moron and doesn't know what he's doing.

Not just Ralph. Four head coaches and their staff's. Four consecutive NHL head coaches and their staff's are too stupid to see what is so clear to guys on a keyboard? No.

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45 minutes ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

I'm not saying Risto or McCabe are Lucic or perhaps Wilson, where as an opposing player, you know you're going to be in the ***** if you pull something, but you remove those two, and you'll hear cries about how soft the team is.

How are they a deterrent if they don’t deter?  Honest question.

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4 minutes ago, Curt said:

How are they a deterrent if they don’t deter?  Honest question.

Let's see... if you see a policeman patrolling the thruway, you probably slow down if you're speeding. If you use Waze and think there is a policeman in the upcoming median, you may slow down. If you have a lead foot and do not believe there is a policeman in the upcoming stretch, you are probably going to continue cruising.

Edited by SabresFanInRochester

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1 hour ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

When Sobotka was injured, it was Miller and Joki. Hmmm.

And when Dahlin was injured, it was on the PP; so no other d were on the ice.

 

But they still played the game. How are they a deterrent if they were in the game and did nothing after it happened. What is that deterring anyone from doing?

1 hour ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

I'm not saying Risto or McCabe are Lucic or perhaps Wilson, where as an opposing player, you know you're going to be in the ***** if you pull something, but you remove those two, and you'll hear cries about how soft the team is.

Would you trade Reinhart for Lucic?

I already hear about how soft this team is. 

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Not just Ralph. Four head coaches and their staff's. Four consecutive NHL head coaches and their staff's are too stupid to see what is so clear to guys on a keyboard? No.

Still a weak argument when the eye test and numbers all confirm the same thing, Risto isn't a top 2 defender. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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2 hours ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

Let's see... if you see a policeman patrolling the thruway, you probably slow down if you're speeding. If you use Waze and think there is a policeman in the upcoming median, you may slow down. If you have a lead foot and do not believe there is a policeman in the upcoming stretch, you are probably going to continue cruising.

I don’t think Risto or McCabe have shown themselves to be policemen in any way.  They don’t behave as such and they are not regarded as such by the opposition.

They will give guys a little shove after the whistle and McCabe delivers 5 really big hits per season.  That’s about it.

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I kept my eye specifically on McCabe last game and his puck handling and decision making was bad. Even in the midst of a 7-1 blowout, he was a liability with the puck on his stick. 

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3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

But they still played the game. How are they a deterrent if they were in the game and did nothing after it happened. What is that deterring anyone from doing?

Would you trade Reinhart for Lucic?

I already hear about how soft this team is. 

Still a weak argument when the eye test and numbers all confirm the same thing, Risto isn't a top 2 defender. 

Nope. But I also wouldn't trade away Risto.

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5 hours ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

Fair point, but I don't think McCabe or Risto partner with Dahlin. Do you know who was on the ice when Sobotka was hit?

Because of lines, with this roster, you're not always going to have a tough guy on the ice, but remove those two from the lineup and you'll never have one on the ice.

McCabe and Risto scare no one.  Nobody.  Neither can fight.  

Look up the 1998 brawl between Buffalo and Vancouver.   Odjick ran Hasek and the Sabres responded immediately with whoever was in the ice.  That did not stop Barnaby from running the Canuck (Burke) goalie immediately on the next shift .  During that melee Ray pummeled Linden so Breashear attacked Pecaa first chance he got.  Shields got in the game and fought Burke in the 2nd Donnybrook.    

None of this will ever happen in today’s league.     

 

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1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

McCabe and Risto scare no one.  Nobody.  Neither can fight.  

Look up the 1998 brawl between Buffalo and Vancouver.   Odjick ran Hasek and the Sabres responded immediately with whoever was in the ice.  That did not stop Barnaby from running the Canuck (Burke) goalie immediately on the next shift .  During that melee Ray pummeled Linden so Breashear attacked Pecaa first chance he got.  Shields got in the game and fought Burke in the 2nd Donnybrook.    

None of this will ever happen in today’s league.     

 

That's right. Fighters do not take roster spots anymore. So it doesn't bother me that neither can fight. I like the physical presence they bring. I never said I love that they fight.

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6 minutes ago, SabresFanInRochester said:

That's right. Fighters do not take roster spots anymore. So it doesn't bother me that neither can fight. I like the physical presence they bring. I never said I love that they fight.

You think they are so physical that they intimidate the other team?  You think that they use their physicality to respond when liberties are taken?  You think that their presence on the roster protects their teammates, as a policeman may?

Can you give an example or two of times they have done things like this?  I just don’t really every see it.  Especially Risto.

Im not trying to be a jerk, it’s just that I see people say stuff like this sometimes, but what I see on the ice just does not support it.

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11 hours ago, Curt said:

You think they are so physical that they intimidate the other team?  You think that they use their physicality to respond when liberties are taken?  You think that their presence on the roster protects their teammates, as a policeman may?

Can you give an example or two of times they have done things like this?  I just don’t really every see it.  Especially Risto.

Im not trying to be a jerk, it’s just that I see people say stuff like this sometimes, but what I see on the ice just does not support it.

This is where I am at. I hear repeatedly how we need Risto for his physical play or in this case specifically that he is a deterrent. What is he deterring and why doesn't his physical play do anything? It is like needing him for the playoffs but with him it seems we won't get to the playoffs because he is mediocre defensively. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This is where I am at. I hear repeatedly how we need Risto for his physical play or in this case specifically that he is a deterrent. What is he deterring and why doesn't his physical play do anything? It is like needing him for the playoffs but with him it seems we won't get to the playoffs because he is mediocre defensively. 

I find it kinda funny how much you just don’t give Risto any credit for what he does well.

Countless times a game, he is banging someone on the boards, gets the puck and either slides it to his partner behind the net or a forward takes it, because he has his man tied up, and they get credit for the ever so precious zone exit (do zone exits and entries even correlate to winning?). It’s why his numbers look so good when paired with a puck mover like Pilut (and why Pilut looks so good with a more physical guy like Risto.)

Every player can be frustrating to watch as no one plays a perfect shift, ever. If you are only paying attention once he has the puck, yes, Risto is not the greatest passer, and he can be frustrating to watch at times, but he totally has a skill set that has value.

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On another note, what the hell has happened to Jake McCabe lately. He looks like a hot mess. It seems like he needs the familiarity of the same partner to play well. He isn’t taking to the rotating partners very well.

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14 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I find it kinda funny how much you just don’t give Risto any credit for what he does well.

Countless times a game, he is banging someone on the boards, gets the puck and either slides it to his partner behind the net or a forward takes it, because he has his man tied up, and they get credit for the ever so precious zone exit (do zone exits and entries even correlate to winning?). It’s why his numbers look so good when paired with a puck mover like Pilut (and why Pilut looks so good with a more physical guy like Risto.)

Every player can be frustrating to watch as no one plays a perfect shift, ever. If you are only paying attention once he has the puck, yes, Risto is not the greatest passer, and he can be frustrating to watch at times, but he totally has a skill set that has value.

He drops coverage so often in the defensive zone that his pro's don't outweigh the cons. He doesn't slide it to someone he typically fires it out of the zone by ringing it around the boards. The only thing he does well is occasionally separate his man from the puck which is great until he then tosses the puck out blindly. He's a #4 defender who can run a PP. We need to stop acting like he's a top pair 25 minute a night guy because year after year and coach after coach show us he can't handle it. 

Zone exits correlate to other things which correlate to winning. It is more complicated than saying zone exits = winning so to answer the question directly, zone exits alone do not correlate to winning. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He drops coverage so often in the defensive zone that his pro's don't outweigh the cons. He doesn't slide it to someone he typically fires it out of the zone by ringing it around the boards. The only thing he does well is occasionally separate his man from the puck which is great until he then tosses the puck out blindly. He's a #4 defender who can run a PP. We need to stop acting like he's a top pair 25 minute a night guy because year after year and coach after coach show us he can't handle it. 

Zone exits correlate to other things which correlate to winning. It is more complicated than saying zone exits = winning so to answer the question directly, zone exits alone do not correlate to winning. 

I’m going to need numbers compared to others. Just because you keep saying this, doesn’t make it true. And if we had forwards with size and skill who were able to collect the puck on the half wall it wouldn’t even be an issue anyway.

The problems with the Sabres this decade has never been the D.

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