Will there be anymore deals?

[Weave]

:doh:

 

Sorry, I had to do it. :)

 

Who was the guy on LetsGoSabres that I used to piss off by purposely misspelling Shaone Morrisonn?

[TheChimp]

That garbage isn't going to get you much, maybe a third line center if you are lucky. You want a first line center; Myers, Vanek, Roy or Kassian are going the other way, possibly more than one of them. You can't get top flight NHL talent for "a package" of players.

I disagree. Sekera going to arbitration is the only reason why I think we can't get Stastny now, because a Hecht + Ennis + Sekera + pick trade could really have been worth thinking about if you're Colorado, IMO. I guess if we put Gragniani in that trade instead of Sekera, it could still happen.

 

I mean, would Colorado really turn down this, for example:

 

Hecht + Ennis + Gragnani + Morrisonn + 1st for Stastny?

[deluca67]

I disagree. Sekera going to arbitration is the only reason why I think we can't get Stastny now, because a Hecht + Ennis + Sekera + pick trade could really have been worth thinking about if you're Colorado, IMO. I guess if we put Gragniani in that trade instead of Sekera, it could still happen.

I mean, would Colorado really turn down this, for example:

 

Hecht + Ennis + Gragnani + Morrisonn + 1st for Stastny?

I just don't see a team like Colorado interested in players like Hecht and Morrisonn? Maybe Ennis, Gragnani, #1 and a top prospect gets it done. I would guess Kassian or Foligno would be more appealing than a combination of vets from the bottom of the Sabres roster.

[HopefulFuture]

I just don't see a team like Colorado interested in players like Hecht and Morrisonn? Maybe Ennis, Gragnani, #1 and a top prospect gets it done. I would guess Kassian or Foligno would be more appealing than a combination of vets from the bottom of the Sabres roster.

I just don't see a team like Colorado letting go of a player like Stastny unless it's for a massive over payment. And in that case, there are other options at the center position via trade that wouldn't be so pricey to the Sabres.

 

This constant drum beat for Stastny is a pipe dream, let it die folks....let it die....

[Derrico]

I just don't see a team like Colorado letting go of a player like Stastny unless it's for a massive over payment. And in that case, there are other options at the center position via trade that wouldn't be so pricey to the Sabres.

 

This constant drum beat for Stastny is a pipe dream, let it die folks....let it die....

 

Just out of pure curiosity, what options do you think are out there? Maybe I would change my mind on a trade if I saw some of the names that are possible to be had.

[deluca67]

Just out of pure curiosity, what options do you think are out there? Maybe I would change my mind on a trade if I saw some of the names that are possible to be had.

Any center of quality is going to cost a king's ransom. There is such a huge demand and short supply at the center position that a team is going to have to overpay to acquire one.

[sabres1970]

Why is Ennis always the trade bait?

[HopefulFuture]

Just out of pure curiosity, what options do you think are out there? Maybe I would change my mind on a trade if I saw some of the names that are possible to be had.

I would see if Stoll can be brought in from LA for 3rd line center duty instead of entrusting it to Hecht.

My options don't include a 1st line type center, because we aren't getting one this off season quite frankly.

 

Pegula has stated a Cup Run within 3 seasons. He did not state everything addressed and fixed in this off season.

There is a whole group of 2012 UFA centers to look at.

 

In short, there are other options available in the time frame given without having to adversly affect the current product being fielded on the Ice.

[thesportsbuff]

I would see if Stoll can be brought in from LA for 3rd line center duty instead of entrusting it to Hecht.

My options don't include a 1st line type center, because we aren't getting one this off season quite frankly.

 

Pegula has stated a Cup Run within 3 seasons. He did not state everything addressed and fixed in this off season.

There is a whole group of 2012 UFA centers to look at.

 

In short, there are other options available in the time frame given without having to adversly affect the current product being fielded on the Ice.

 

Haven't taken a good look at the list myself, but general consensus is that 2012's UFA crop is going to be even weaker than this years -- chances of a #1 center being available July 1 are slim imo.

[carpandean]

Why is Ennis always the trade bait?

Because a top-line center is going to take a lot of value to acquire. Ennis has a lot of value. If you're not including him in the package, then you probably aren't being realistic.

[HopefulFuture]

Haven't taken a good look at the list myself, but general consensus is that 2012's UFA crop is going to be even weaker than this years -- chances of a #1 center being available July 1 are slim imo.

What?

 

You've been misinformed then. You need to look at the list of centers potentially coming available.

[thesportsbuff]

What?

 

You've been misinformed then. You need to look at the list of centers potentially coming available.

 

?? I just looked -- Patrick Sharp and Jarret Stoll are the only appealing centers set to become UFA next summer, and I would be shocked if either of them are allowed to hit the open market.

 

Edit: And Grabovski, but I also doubt he hits the open market.

[deluca67]

?? I just looked -- Patrick Sharp and Jarret Stoll are the only appealing centers set to become UFA next summer, and I would be shocked if either of them are allowed to hit the open market.

 

Edit: And Grabovski, but I also doubt he hits the open market.

With Richards now in LA, Stoll may be a possibility. It will come down to how the season goes in LA. If they have a couple of injuries and the Sabres have players that can fill the Kings needs a trade could be possible.

[carpandean]

Stoll would definitely fit into the "we don't need a true #1 center, just another decent #2 center" concept. He's a strong two-way player with decent, but not exceptional offensive skills, does well in faceoffs, and can be used in most any situation.

 

His cap hit is low this season and his impending UFA status would give some flexibility should another option pop up. Of course, it also means that he can't necessarily be counted on as a longer-term part. Sure, Darcy would have first shot and Pegula would be able to offer upfront cash again, but with the even more limit FA crop than this year, he knows that he will get overpaid by the market. An interesting option, though.

[TheChimp]

He seems like just another Hecht to me. What would be the point? If we're not trading for a #1 Center, we should just be done with the whole thing for the year. And to me, that would be a shame. It's the perfect time to trade all of the guys I mentioned. Morrisonn was the "Kotalik" in that trade, I'm sure everyone understands that.

[Bullwinkle]

Dude, you said Ennis was the first Sabre who was exciting every time he touched the puck. I'm just saying Afinogenov was exciting too. For a while, he was really effective. He was still sort of exciting after he stopped being effective. There was always a response from the crowd in the arena when he got the puck.

 

OK, I probably exaggerated there...but he's the best I've seen in a while.

 

I hope you're right, but that's a way higher ceiling than I've ever heard for Ennis. "Perreault potential" is basically the highest praise you could give a young player for the Sabres.

 

I say that because he has moves that drop my jaw. The last guy that awed me like that was Perreault.

[Bullwinkle]

Aim lower. Perreault is a hall of famer. An elite level talent. Ennis has never been described as having hall of fame potential. When I'm thinking of what Ennis can become I'm thinking closer to Donald Audette than Gilbert Perreault.

 

Audette never had the moves that Ennis has. He's better than Audette.

[Bullwinkle]

I just don't see a team like Colorado letting go of a player like Stastny unless it's for a massive over payment. And in that case, there are other options at the center position via trade that wouldn't be so pricey to the Sabres.

 

This constant drum beat for Stastny is a pipe dream, let it die folks....let it die....

 

 

I agree. And why do any of you think that Stastny is a nr. 1 center? Maybe in the future, but he certainly isn't right now. Just because he's a nr. 1 on Colorado or has a famous father, doesn't make him a true nr. 1.

[deluca67]

I agree. And why do any of you think that Stastny is a nr. 1 center? Maybe in the future, but he certainly isn't right now. Just because he's a nr. 1 on Colorado or has a famous father, doesn't make him a true nr. 1.

Stastny is only 25 and has 321 points in 348 games. Last season he took 1,524 face-offs and won 53.2%. He also stepped up his physical game with 74 hits in 74 games. He is still a young player maturing into a really good center in this league. If Colorado is willing to even consider moving him the Sabres need to part of that discussion. Stastny is a player that has proven he can score in the league and still has an upside from that point.

 

If Stastny is truly available, the Sabres can't let opportunity slip by like they did with Nathan Horton.

[HopefulFuture]

?? I just looked -- Patrick Sharp and Jarret Stoll are the only appealing centers set to become UFA next summer, and I would be shocked if either of them are allowed to hit the open market.

 

Edit: And Grabovski, but I also doubt he hits the open market.

You can doubt all you'd like, but at the end of business today, they are still on the 2012 UFA list.

The point being that pay day's are to be had, and they will be.

I highly doubt any of those 3 get locked up longterm by their respective clubs when each of their agents are aware that center position is in short supply and high demand, which equals bidding war for dollar signs.

[thesportsbuff]

You can doubt all you'd like, but at the end of business today, they are still on the 2012 UFA list.

 

OK, but that is irrelevant as we are talking about a date 355 days away. They're entering the final year of their contract, which is generally when players receive their extensions. Sharp isn't going anywhere. Grabovski isn't going anywhere. Stoll would be the best bet of hitting free agency or being traded at the deadline, but I'm not sold on him as a top line center anyway without being able to see LA play more than once or twice a year. Didn't mean to get involved in your argument, just saying the 2012 UFA pool isn't as deep as you think it is. The trade route is our only option to acquire a center within the next two years.

 

But hey, Sidney Crosby is, at the end of business today, a UFA in 2013. Buffalo better get a serious offer ready for him :rolleyes:

[Bullwinkle]

Stastny is only 25 and has 321 points in 348 games. Last season he took 1,524 face-offs and won 53.2%. He also stepped up his physical game with 74 hits in 74 games. He is still a young player maturing into a really good center in this league. If Colorado is willing to even consider moving him the Sabres need to part of that discussion. Stastny is a player that has proven he can score in the league and still has an upside from that point.

 

If Stastny is truly available, the Sabres can't let opportunity slip by like they did with Nathan Horton.

 

True nr. 1 centers are consistently good. Look at his record compared to Roy (who is considered a 2nd line center) for the same period.

 

STASTNY .......................................... ROY

GP.......... Points..... PPG.......... GP..... Points..... PPG

82.......... 78.......... .95.............. 75........... 63........ .84

66.......... 71.......... 1.08............. 78... ...... 81........ 1.04

45.......... 36.......... .8................ 82.......... 70........ .85

81.......... 79.......... .98............... 80.......... 69........ .86

74.......... 57.......... .77............... 35.......... 35........ 1.00

 

 

(Sorry about the dots...I forgot HTML.)

 

Do you see a big difference? I don't. He won 53% of his faceoffs? Roy had 46.4%. Stastny has a hit a game. That's all? I'm not impressed.

 

As I have said, Stastny's only real advantage is age. He's 25 and should now be hitting his stride. What I'm seeing here is inconsistency.

 

Thus my doubts about Stastny being a true nr. 1 center.

[Taro T]

You forgot to mention that Boston came within one goal of being eliminated in the 7th game OT against Mtl.

 

What you say may be true, but this "weakest Cup winner" wiped out the Flyers in four straight games and they weren't even close. How can you explain that when we struggled through seven games and lost?

 

Also, much was made of Kesler's injury and the Sedin twins' play. But everyone is injured in the playoffs, including the Bruins. Kesler's injury was more obvious because of his obvious skating impairment. The Sedin twins got them the President's Trophy. This wasn't a team of injured cream puffs. They took the Bruins to seven games and it required a gutsy effort by the Bruins to prevail in that last game.

 

In short, the strength of the Boston team wasn't in its star players (of which there were few). Their strength rested in the connection each player had for the other and for the team as a whole. They had internal fortitude and a team spirit which overcame the overt talent of the Canucks. We can have that too.

Boston was able to sweep the Phlyers because they were able to overcome Filly's forecheck and get a reasonable # of scoring chances on that joke of a 3 headed cluster they called goalies in Hoageytown. Having solid (though not great) centers was a big part of that.

 

Had the Sabres managed to keep either (or both) Pominville and Connolly in the lineup, they very likely would have beaten the Phlyers as well.

 

Boston earned the Stanley Cup this year, but they very easily could have been ousted before getting the opportunity to play Vancouver. Had there been ANY penalties called in game 7 vs TB, I'd really expect that one to have worked out differently.

 

I would agree that Boston was the weakest of the winners since the lockout. I wouldn't like their matchup against any of the other winners post lockout.

 

...

 

Colorado for example still needs to hit the cap floor, a package Kotalik Boyes Morrisonn Sekera and a 1st gets them out of a 6 year contract with Stastny, increases their salary and provides them with only one contract (assuming sekera signs multiyear) that they're committed to. Leaving them with Options next year in a stronger FA class.

 

Would I do that? No. but I'm also not the one signing checks or making game plans.

 

Let me ask you a question, do you know what Patrice Tardif, Roman Vopat, and Craig Johnson, Jason Soules, Tyler Wright and Nick Stajduhar have in common?

They were all traded for GRETZKY at one point. (first three from LA to STL, Second 3 the first round pics from EDM)

 

Now you might be saying, but Greg, I believe that Colorado would have a better chance to win with Stastny over 12, 22, 27, 44 and 1st round pick.. I would tend to agree, but you're also assuming that Colorado's main goal is to win. As we can well relate, Winning may not be every owners top priority.

 

Do I think we're gonna trade for Stastny? I hope so, I don't think it'll happen, but I reject the idea that there isn't deals out there to be had for good players with people we don't value as high.

 

Boyes had 7 less points than Havlat, and Havlat was just traded straight up for Heatley.

I don't see Colorado trading Statsny away because if they do, they are likely planning on being very bad this season. Teams that expect to be bad don't trade away their #1 pick in the next draft. (Though teams that SHOULD expect to be, such as TO, have been known to trade away that pick.)

 

Prior to the Varlamov trade, I could have seen scenarios where the Avs would trade him. Post-trade, I just can't see it happening unless they get the best player involved in the trade. THAT sort of trade wouldn't make sense from the Sabres point of view, IMHO.

 

You could see Larionov and just look at numbers and it wouldn't tell you about his puck possession and vision. He could spend an entire shift with the puck on his stick in the neutral zone, and if you stopped chasing him, he'd attack.

 

Really, since the Red Wings got Larionov they have remained a puck possession team ever since.

 

Numbers aside, and I'm not saying Leino is Larionov....but Leino is a puck possessor that is coming to the NHL at a similar point in their careers.

It will be really interesting to see how the improved D, and my expectation that Leino will be able to carry the puck into the zone, will alter the Sabres' 'system.' They've wanted to play a puck possession game (modeled after Detroit) but haven't really had the personnel to effectively implement it (especially w/ nearly no healthy centers).

 

I expect it will take a while for the team to gel, but it could be fun to watch once it does.

 

Center may not have been the Bruins strength last season but it is light-years ahead of what the Sabres are going into this season with. Right now the Sabres only have 3 centers on the roster, Roy, Gaustad and McCormick. That's a #2 center and two 4th line centers.

 

I'm not saying I agree with the trade scenarios being tossed around. I will agree fans that are concerned about the lack of talent at center have every right to be.

Agreed. Even if Leino ends up a center, I expect they're still lacking a true #1 and a true #3. I expect Leino to be a #2, and I consider Roy to be one as well. (Though I admit that Roy is close to putting up #1 numbers. I just don't think he raises the play of his linemates, which is something I expect from a #1.)

 

I agree they're better. Remember VL and probably Adam or Hecht will be a center as well though so you must count them. But arguably our wingers are superior to Boston. Our D is looking just as good, if not better and then it comes down to Miller. Will he be as good as Thomas was? That will be a serious question. But to get back on topic, just to say that we lack talent at center is rudimentary IMO. Anyone can say oh we need an upgrade there but let's face the facts, we're over the cap and would need a trade to pull this off. I'd love to trade the right pieces to get that center but thus far all concerned have not given much in the way of how to pull this off. I'm saying a different way to accomplish this feat is by loading up at all other positions (which we're pretty good at right now) and therefore mask our weakness at center. As many have jumped to defend, there is no one way at building a stanley cup team and I just think we should be weary of trading big pieces of our team to address the one weakness we have or our current strengths may no longer be there once a trade is complete.

The Sabres tried valiantly to hide their center weakness last year - X's astute observations about 'center by committee' were spot on. But, especially when injuries hit, they simply didn't have the horses to cover up the center deficiencies.

 

I'm still hoping to see 1 more move for a center this offseason or early next season. I definitely expect to see a #3 brought in at the trade deadline if they haven't addressed that spot earlier in the year.

 

While I agree that they still need to upgrade center, the difference with Leino is that he prefers center and it may be his natural position. I'm interested to see how it progesses but Ruff and Regier seem sure of themselves on this one.0

The experiment will definitely be interesting.

 

Although I agree that center is the glaring weakness, I think it is exagerated to a certain extend on this board. The Sabres had one of the best records in the NHL over the entire second half of the season last year. The difference up the middle between then and now is that we lose the Tin Man (which 95% of the board is happy about) and gain (hopefully) a healthy Derek Roy, a bit of an experiment but talented Ville Lenio and possibly a more experienced Luke Adam. Everyone seems to project the roster without the kid. He did play what, 20 games for us last year? He's got a shot at the lineup.

If the Sabres make no other moves, I'd expect Adam to be the 13th forward this year. And he might develop into an NHL center, but at this point in time, I see him as more of a #4 which they already have a pair of.

 

Hopefully, he could fill the #3 role, but I just don't see that at this point of his development.

 

Why Buffalo needs centers is not entirely scoring. Philly proved that Buffalo is vulnerable to a fore-check - and they were able to pin Buffalo in by taking away the center of the ice.

 

Secondly, there are the face-offs. Gaustad was solid in the defensive zone and had a good season- but organizationally it is still weak. (Heck, Dany Briere even did a backflip in the playoffs to get Gaustad thrown out - because Buffalo had no second option).

 

Thirdly, Entries: Most of the season Connolly was the only one with reliable entries into the offensive zone. Using d-men for entries is a high risk game - note vulnerability to the SH goals.

 

Lastly - Buffalo's offensive strength is in the wings. That one guy that can put the puck on Vanek and Stafford's stick will raise productivity.

 

So while Buffalo is still a good team - if they can find that one guy, four elements can really improve.

:thumbsup:

 

I found our weakness to be on D in that series. Our young guys played well in some stretches but there certainly were mistakes made on the back end, way too many rebound/second chances.

 

...

D was a weakness. But they didn't get much help at all from the centers. Though 7 games they simply wore down. I'd posit that the lack of legit centers was the root of the D looking shaky and wearing down.

 

With legit centers that can bring the puck up ice, the D doesn't have to always join the rush and burn a lot of energy moving up ice in the play. They CAN join the rush, but they don't have to. This past year, they HAD to join the rush, or there was no rush to join, more often than not.

 

 

...

 

Good hockey talk here, boys. My 2 cents: while I agree that the defense folding didn't happen in a vacuum, and that better center play would've helped, and that I'd love to see the Sabres add a center for any of the top 3 lines (like, say, Drury if his knee passes a physical), I think the center play is well down on the list of factors why the Sabres lost to Philly.

 

My #1 factor would be sub-par defensive play -- and I would guess based on this summer's events that DR and LR agree. My #2 factor would be the same reason the Sabres lost to Boston the previous year -- poor production out of the "top 6." Vanek delivered a few first-period PP goals, but otherwise the top 6 was just as pathetic as they were the previous year vs. the Bruins. There was no sustained pressure on the forecheck and no 3rd-period production when the Sabres really needed something to avoid blowing a lead. My #3 factor would be loss of heart after frittering away game 6 (and after playing with plenty of heart through 6 games) and showing up already beaten for game 7.

Regier is on record back to at least '06 stating that his priorities are G, D, C, & W in that order. He's got 1 covered (it would appear finally at both starter and backup), he definitely addressed 2 this off-season, and he's started to address 3 - (& it appears he tried to address it even more than he has to date - trying to trade up to draft Couturier and trying to land BR). Ironic, that the lowest priority has been the strength of the club since that fateful day in '07.

 

Ennis delivered well from the top 6 and Vanek did fine as well. Poms had the winner in game 4 and his being injured definitely affected the team's play. But agree, that the top 6 needed to be better. I'd suggest that having a real #1 center (or even a pair of legit #2's) would have gone a long way towards that goal.

 

And I don't think it was lack of heart in games 6 & 7. It was simply lack of talent after TC and JP were down and out.

[deluca67]

True nr. 1 centers are consistently good. Look at his record compared to Roy (who is considered a 2nd line center) for the same period.

 

STASTNY .......................................... ROY

GP.......... Points..... PPG.......... GP..... Points..... PPG

82.......... 78.......... .95.............. 75........... 63........ .84

66.......... 71.......... 1.08............. 78... ...... 81........ 1.04

45.......... 36.......... .8................ 82.......... 70........ .85

81.......... 79.......... .98............... 80.......... 69........ .86

74.......... 57.......... .77............... 35.......... 35........ 1.00

 

 

(Sorry about the dots...I forgot HTML.)

 

Do you see a big difference? I don't. He won 53% of his faceoffs? Roy had 46.4%. Stastny has a hit a game. That's all? I'm not impressed.

 

As I have said, Stastny's only real advantage is age. He's 25 and should now be hitting his stride. What I'm seeing here is inconsistency.

 

Thus my doubts about Stastny being a true nr. 1 center.

Roy is three years older than Stastny which skews the comparison a little. I look at Derek Roy as pretty much being the player he is going to be. At 25 I consider Stastny to have that upside. If Stastny is the same player at 28 as he is at 25 then I wouldn't consider him a #1 center. There is enough talent there to justify the risk and the cost of putting him in the Blue & Gold.

[LastPommerFan]

Roy is three years older than Stastny which skews the comparison a little. I look at Derek Roy as pretty much being the player he is going to be. At 25 I consider Stastny to have that upside. If Stastny is the same player at 28 as he is at 25 then I wouldn't consider him a #1 center. There is enough talent there to justify the risk and the cost of putting him in the Blue & Gold.

 

i have a question that relates to what he would be "worth" to the sabres.

 

Take what you believe it would cost the sabres to add stasny out of the line-up, and add stasny in. look at both rosters side by side. What % chance would you give the current sabres (for reference, they are currently the 11th best favorite at 20-1 on Bodog) and what % chance would you give the new roster minus the traded players plus stasny? My guess is the odds don't increase that much.