Burke is at it again...

[nfreeman]

Say what you want about the Donahoe approach, at least Bills fans felt like they were part of the league. You stated you would have "loved" Pronger on the Sabres. Doesn't it say something that most fans would feel better if they thought the Sabres were just in the conversation? Wouldn't we as Sabre fans feel better if the Sabres weren't automatically eliminated from possibly dealing for 1/3 of the players in the league.

 

Its the goal of every GM. The only difference is that Darcy isn't good enough at his job to achieve this goal. He would rather just tell everyone that he has confidence that his players have more potential and will get better so he does not need to make moves

We have to remember that the Sabres just didn't have $5MM (let alone $7MM) to throw at an elite player this summer. It's certainly fair to blame Darcy for this in part, as we have a ton of budget tied up in Hecht, Tallinder, Lydman and Pommer, all of which are looking like average-to-poor decisions. But we also have to remember that a bigger reason is that the Sabres just don't have the same cash to spend as Philly, the Rangers, Toronto or the Habs. Philly's total payroll last year was over $64MM -- a solid 28% more than the Sabres'. We can call TG a cheapskate all we want, but it doesn't change the facts. And, as far as that goes, Anaheim dumped Pronger to save cash and their internal budget this year is 3-4 million below the Sabres'.

 

And I'm not sure what Apus is implying -- is it that Darcy is too lazy or risk-averse to make a move, so he would rather just fiddle while Rome burns? That seems pretty unrealistic. I think it's safe to assume that Darcy likes being an NHL GM, and that he knows the team needs to win in order to keep his job. He's going to do what he thinks is most likely to advance that goal. He's also spoken a number of times about intending to be active in the trade market this summer. Again, it's only July 7.

 

more like 2/3or maybe even 4/5

 

Its human nature to rationalise that what they are doing is the right thing because we want to think that its the right way to do it. The thing is, theres a reason why teams throw big money at the top guys, because you have a better chance at success with top level players playing for you then a group of mediocre ones.

Well, there are plenty of elite NHL franchises that weren't out there bringing in big-ticket UFAs last week -- Detroit, Pittsburgh, NJ, SJ. Bottom line is that most of the big UFAs haven't really worked out, and bringing them in is no way to build a winner. For every one you can name that did, I can name 3 that didn't.

[PASabreFan]

I think it's safe to assume that Darcy likes being an NHL GM, and that he knows the team needs to win in order to keep his job. He's going to do what he thinks is most likely to advance that goal.

 

Not only has Ruff missed the playoffs five of the last seven years (and nearly six in nine!), so has Regier. So your statement seems a bit out of touch with reality.

 

It's just as likely Darcy likes being an NHL GM, so he keeps his mouth shut, sticks to the budget and puts just enough of a product on the ice to keep fannies in the seats.

[nfreeman]

Not only has Ruff missed the playoffs five of the last seven years (and nearly six in nine!), so has Regier. So your statement seems a bit out of touch with reality.

 

It's just as likely Darcy likes being an NHL GM, so he keeps his mouth shut, sticks to the budget and puts just enough of a product on the ice to keep fannies in the seats.

Obtuse again. Should we pretend that in those 5 years in which they missed the playoffs, none of the following events -- all of which were out of Darcy's control -- happened:

 

1. Darcy's boss refused to pay the team captain (Peca), so he held out for an entire year and was traded

 

2. The Sabres lost by far their best player (Hasek), who insisted on leaving because he realized he couldn't win here

 

3. The owner was arrested and jailed

 

4. The team went bankrupt

 

5. The team was taken over by the NHL

 

6. The team was in grave danger of folding or moving

 

7. Darcy's new boss refused to pay an important leader/grit guy (Grier), who left in free agency (note that this one is what Bucky claims Quinn did -- not corroborated)

 

8. Darcy's new boss refused to pay the co-captains, who then left in free agency

 

9. Darcy's new boss refused to pay their best defenseman, who was traded

 

 

When you're trying to build a team with a budget that's in the 30th percentile in the NHL, you're walking a fine line. Darcy built a great team from the ashes of the first debacle and then had to watch as his new bosses took a hammer to it. You can blame him all you want, but if you don't take the context into account, IMHO you are missing the forest for the trees.

[deluca67]

We have to remember that the Sabres just didn't have $5MM (let alone $7MM) to throw at an elite player this summer. It's certainly fair to blame Darcy for this in part, as we have a ton of budget tied up in Hecht, Tallinder, Lydman and Pommer, all of which are looking like average-to-poor decisions. But we also have to remember that a bigger reason is that the Sabres just don't have the same cash to spend as Philly, the Rangers, Toronto or the Habs. Philly's total payroll last year was over $64MM -- a solid 28% more than the Sabres'. We can call TG a cheapskate all we want, but it doesn't change the facts. And, as far as that goes, Anaheim dumped Pronger to save cash and their internal budget this year is 3-4 million below the Sabres'.

 

And I'm not sure what Apus is implying -- is it that Darcy is too lazy or risk-averse to make a move, so he would rather just fiddle while Rome burns? That seems pretty unrealistic. I think it's safe to assume that Darcy likes being an NHL GM, and that he knows the team needs to win in order to keep his job. He's going to do what he thinks is most likely to advance that goal. He's also spoken a number of times about intending to be active in the trade market this summer. Again, it's only July 7.

Well, there are plenty of elite NHL franchises that weren't out there bringing in big-ticket UFAs last week -- Detroit, Pittsburgh, NJ, SJ. Bottom line is that most of the big UFAs haven't really worked out, and bringing them in is no way to build a winner. For every one you can name that did, I can name 3 that didn't.

I really just don't buy "Bottom line is that most of the big UFAs haven't really worked out." There have been some really bad signings, LaPointe to Boston and Redden to NYR come to mind. I believe, for the most part, that UFAs end up making their teams better. Does it always end up with a Stanley Cup No, of course not. That doesn't make the move a failure. Rafalski was a great signing by Detroit and made them better. Campbell may be over paid but he does make the Hawks better. There are teams like the Islanders that will always get it wrong. You mentioned that Detroit, Pitt, NJ and SJ weren't big shoppers this off-season. I think that has more to do with them being really good teams with not a lot of needs to fill. Is there any argument that those teams aren't light years ahead of the Sabres? The Sabres should be using UFAs to close the gap.

 

I think in the end what we are talking about is a 10th place team that refused to recognize what they are, a 10th place team. It's why this team needed desperately to have someone from the outside come in and do a real evaluation like some NHL reality makeover show.

 

You have mentioned that it is only July. Isn't there a part of every poster that expects nothing much as far as a trade goes and anticipates Regier explaining away that he overestimated the trade market and that there wasn't much value available? In the end he will fell that the greater value was in the "assets" already under contract and that he feels comfortable with the roster as it stands? Isn't this the more likely scenario.

[PASabreFan]

Obtuse again. Should we pretend that in those 5 years in which they missed the playoffs, none of the following events -- all of which were out of Darcy's control -- happened:

 

1. Darcy's boss refused to pay the team captain (Peca), so he held out for an entire year and was traded

 

2. The Sabres lost by far their best player (Hasek), who insisted on leaving because he realized he couldn't win here

 

3. The owner was arrested and jailed

 

4. The team went bankrupt

 

5. The team was taken over by the NHL

 

6. The team was in grave danger of folding or moving

 

7. Darcy's new boss refused to pay an important leader/grit guy (Grier), who left in free agency (note that this one is what Bucky claims Quinn did -- not corroborated)

 

8. Darcy's new boss refused to pay the co-captains, who then left in free agency

 

9. Darcy's new boss refused to pay their best defenseman, who was traded

 

 

When you're trying to build a team with a budget that's in the 30th percentile in the NHL, you're walking a fine line. Darcy built a great team from the ashes of the first debacle and then had to watch as his new bosses took a hammer to it. You can blame him all you want, but if you don't take the context into account, IMHO you are missing the forest for the trees.

 

Excuses. The course of true love never did run smooth. This reminds me of all the excuses Miller apologists make. Bad giveaway by the defense. Couldn't see the shot. Shot was tipped -- four times! Sports is a results-oriented business. Tom can say he's doubled the budget since before the lockout. Spent to the cap in 06-07. Gives Darcy a reasonable amount to work with, an amount equal to a lot of playoff teams. I have no idea where your 30th percentile figure comes from. What are you saying, they're 30th in budget? In the top third?

 

I ask again. Why is Darcy still here? He doesn't own his balls, and he manages the team that way. I say he loves his job, the security of it, and he's going to continue to do exactly what he's always done to keep it. Is there any indication Darcy is acting like he has to win this year or be gone? The whole debacle of Darcy appearing on that Web show on the first day of free agency (whether it was taped in the morning makes little difference to me) was a pretty strong clue.

[nfreeman]

I really just don't buy "Bottom line is that most of the big UFAs haven't really worked out." There have been some really bad signings, LaPointe to Boston and Redden to NYR come to mind. I believe, for the most part, that UFAs end up making their teams better. Does it always end up with a Stanley Cup No, of course not. That doesn't make the move a failure. Rafalski was a great signing by Detroit and made them better. Campbell may be over paid but he does make the Hawks better. There are teams like the Islanders that will always get it wrong. You mentioned that Detroit, Pitt, NJ and SJ weren't big shoppers this off-season. I think that has more to do with them being really good teams with not a lot of needs to fill. Is there any argument that those teams aren't light years ahead of the Sabres? The Sabres should be using UFAs to close the gap.

 

I think in the end what we are talking about is a 10th place team that refused to recognize what they are, a 10th place team. It's why this team needed desperately to have someone from the outside come in and do a real evaluation like some NHL reality makeover show.

 

You have mentioned that it is only July. Isn't there a part of every poster that expects nothing much as far as a trade goes and anticipates Regier explaining away that he overestimated the trade market and that there wasn't much value available? In the end he will fell that the greater value was in the "assets" already under contract and that he feels comfortable with the roster as it stands? Isn't this the more likely scenario.

Regarding adding UFAs: you have to consider not just whether a decent-to-good player was added, but what the implications of adding him were -- ie what other moves couldn't be made because you added that guy. The Rangers loaded up on Drury, Gomez and Redden, but had to unload Nylander and Jagr -- and did worse in the playoffs. Chicago added Campbell, and had to unload Khabibulin and will end up losing someone like Bfuglien or Keith. Here is an excellent article on this by Eric Duhatschek, who IMHO is one of the best 2 or 3 hockey writers anywhere.

 

I would've been very happy to have added a good UFA (or for that matter a guy like Pronger in trade). But we can't pretend there aren't financial limitations.

 

As for whether there is a feeling of dread inside me and every other poster that Montador is all we're going to get -- of course there is. But it doesn't mean that this will prove to be the case. I just don't want to give in to the dark side this early. I also don't think Darcy is going to kid himself into thinking that he can stand pat and keep his job (which means I don't believe PAFan's theory that Darcy's job is safe as long as the Sabres sell enough tickets, regardless of on-ice performance).

 

Excuses. The course of true love never did run smooth. This reminds me of all the excuses Miller apologists make. Bad giveaway by the defense. Couldn't see the shot. Shot was tipped -- four times! Sports is a results-oriented business. Tom can say he's doubled the budget since before the lockout. Spent to the cap in 06-07. Gives Darcy a reasonable amount to work with, an amount equal to a lot of playoff teams. I have no idea where your 30th percentile figure comes from. What are you saying, they're 30th in budget? In the top third?

 

I ask again. Why is Darcy still here? He doesn't own his balls, and he manages the team that way. I say he loves his job, the security of it, and he's going to continue to do exactly what he's always done to keep it. Is there any indication Darcy is acting like he has to win this year or be gone? The whole debacle of Darcy appearing on that Web show on the first day of free agency (whether it was taped in the morning makes little difference to me) was a pretty strong clue.

Obtuse yet again, unless you really don't understand what percentile means, which I doubt. In any case, it means that the Sabres' payroll is in the bottom 30% of the NHL.

 

Of course Darcy loves his job. What hockey management guy wouldn't want to be an NHL GM? And if this (along with his family being settled in the same city for over 10 years, which is very rare in his business) is enough for him not to get PO'd and quit, I won't think poorly of him for making that choice.

 

Having said that, I agree that sports is results-oriented. Your question was why is Darcy still here? My answer is that Darcy wasn't permitted by his bosses to run the team as he saw fit, so his bosses -- who are mature individuals -- realized that it wasn't fair to hold him accountable for bad results. If Darcy has now been given the reins and told to win the race (or at least come a lot closer), he needs to produce results. I think this is what's happened now and that if we don't see results, he'll be gone.

[PASabreFan]

Obtuse yet again, unless you really don't understand what percentile means, which I doubt. In any case, it means that the Sabres' payroll is in the bottom 30% of the NHL.

 

Yeah, it's been a while since the ole percentile has come up in my life, so I unashamedly admit to fanning on that pass. Of course I will still take a look at the payroll figures (also because I claimed some playoff teams spent as much as the Sabres). "Trust, but verify."

 

I guess I don't get the theory at work here. The "bosses" admit they fudged up the team, but now they're giving Darcy only one year to fix their messes that go back to '06?

 

Ya know, a manager can blame his boss only so many times. Either Darcy has the worst luck in bosses, or he's not very good.

[Sabre Dance]

.

 

Having said that, I agree that sports is results-oriented. Your question was why is Darcy still here? My answer is that Darcy wasn't permitted by his bosses to run the team as he saw fit, so his bosses -- who are mature individuals -- realized that it wasn't fair to hold him accountable for bad results. If Darcy has now been given the reins and told to win the race (or at least come a lot closer), he needs to produce results. I think this is what's happened now and that if we don't see results, he'll be gone.

 

The question is...if Darcy was fed up with having to live under the Golisano/Quinn regime, where would he go? I can't believe that there would be many (any?) teams out there that would hire him. No team wants an ineffective rubber stamp for a GM. Toronto brought in Brian Burke because he built a Cup winning team in Anaheim in a reasonably short number of years. Can you see any NHL team knocking on Darcy's door to offer him a job becuse of his outstanding results with the Sabres? Yeah, I didn't think so either.....

[nfreeman]

Yeah, it's been a while since the ole percentile has come up in my life, so I unashamedly admit to fanning on that pass. Of course I will still take a look at the payroll figures (also because I claimed some playoff teams spent as much as the Sabres). "Trust, but verify."

 

I guess I don't get the theory at work here. The "bosses" admit they fudged up the team, but now they're giving Darcy only one year to fix their messes that go back to '06?

 

Ya know, a manager can blame his boss only so many times. Either Darcy has the worst luck in bosses, or he's not very good.

I'm sure a few playoff teams did spend equal to or less than the Sabres.

 

Here is the theory in a nutshell: TG and Quinn royally screwed up Darcy's team by meddling in hockey decisions (in the case of Quinn) and refusing to authorize contracts (in the case of TG). This was the case until the end of 07-08 (ie the year the bottom fell out after Drury & Briere left). At that point, they realized they had screwed it up and turned it over to Darcy. So Darcy really took over authority (subject to living within an overall budget) last summer. This means that Darcy has had last offseason and this offseason to clean up the mess.

 

Last offseason, Darcy extended Hecht, Pommer and Miller -- which not only meant keeping ostensibly good players on the team but also reversed the trend of losing good veterans and sent a message to the team that ownership was committed to rewarding good performance -- drafted Myers (and Ennis and Adam), signed Gerbe and Kennedy (and Schutz, I think) and traded for Rivet. We all wanted another move for a tough veteran forward, but we didn't get it. Still, if the Sabres had gotten more out of Hecht and Pommer (not to mention Max and Tallinder), those decisions would have looked pretty good and the Sabres would've made the playoffs and perhaps even won a round. It would have been a pretty strong recovery from the prior debacle. Of course, Pommer had a crappy year, Hecht fell completely off the table and Miller and Vanek got hurt and we missed the playoffs.

 

This offseason, Darcy has stated repeatedly that he intends to make some moves. The financial reality of this team is that there was no way he could bring in an expensive UFA. Still, he's already brought in a top-4 defenseman who is a pretty tough guy. I think we'll see another good move or 2 in the next month or so -- which will bring in a good player who isn't a household name -- and that the moves will be effective.

 

So that's the theory -- Darcy is on his 2nd offseason in which he's been given the authority to clean up his bosses' mess. If it doesn't get cleaned up with good results this year, he's gone, and probably Lindy too. I think Darcy can and will deliver. But I'm an optimist.

 

Go Sabres.

[deluca67]

I'm sure a few playoff teams did spend equal to or less than the Sabres.

 

Here is the theory in a nutshell: TG and Quinn royally screwed up Darcy's team by meddling in hockey decisions (in the case of Quinn) and refusing to authorize contracts (in the case of TG). This was the case until the end of 07-08 (ie the year the bottom fell out after Drury & Briere left). At that point, they realized they had screwed it up and turned it over to Darcy. So Darcy really took over authority (subject to living within an overall budget) last summer. This means that Darcy has had last offseason and this offseason to clean up the mess.

 

Last offseason, Darcy extended Hecht, Pommer and Miller -- which not only meant keeping ostensibly good players on the team but also reversed the trend of losing good veterans and sent a message to the team that ownership was committed to rewarding good performance -- drafted Myers (and Ennis and Adam), signed Gerbe and Kennedy (and Schutz, I think) and traded for Rivet. We all wanted another move for a tough veteran forward, but we didn't get it. Still, if the Sabres had gotten more out of Hecht and Pommer (not to mention Max and Tallinder), those decisions would have looked pretty good and the Sabres would've made the playoffs and perhaps even won a round. It would have been a pretty strong recovery from the prior debacle. Of course, Pommer had a crappy year, Hecht fell completely off the table and Miller and Vanek got hurt and we missed the playoffs.

 

This offseason, Darcy has stated repeatedly that he intends to make some moves. The financial reality of this team is that there was no way he could bring in an expensive UFA. Still, he's already brought in a top-4 defenseman who is a pretty tough guy. I think we'll see another good move or 2 in the next month or so -- which will bring in a good player who isn't a household name -- and that the moves will be effective.

 

So that's the theory -- Darcy is on his 2nd offseason in which he's been given the authority to clean up his bosses' mess. If it doesn't get cleaned up with good results this year, he's gone, and probably Lindy too. I think Darcy can and will deliver. But I'm an optimist.

 

Go Sabres.

I just want to throw this out there. Is the problem that the Sabres lost quality veteran players or is it Regier's inability to replace them? Regier decided to look inward and overpay for his own players instead seeking outside replacements. Minnesota lost Gaborik this year and came right back to sign Havlet. The Sabres lost Drury, Briere and Campbell and reacted by overpaying Hecht, Pomminstein and Connolly.

[Spudz]

2. The Sabres lost by far their best player (Hasek), who insisted on leaving because he realized he couldn't win here

 

This made me cry a little, thanks. :cry:

[nfreeman]

I just want to throw this out there. Is the problem that the Sabres lost quality veteran players or is it Regier's inability to replace them? Regier decided to look inward and overpay for his own players instead seeking outside replacements. Minnesota lost Gaborik this year and came right back to sign Havlet. The Sabres lost Drury, Briere and Campbell and reacted by overpaying Hecht, Pomminstein and Connolly.

This is a very reasonable point. If Pommer and Hecht don't rebound, and/or if Connolly gets hurt again and misses 40% of the next 2 seasons, Darcy is accountable for those decisions. OTOH, if they do rebound, and Connolly stays healthy, then Darcy gets credit for keeping good players at reasonable contracts. That's fair.

[shrader]

I just want to throw this out there. Is the problem that the Sabres lost quality veteran players or is it Regier's inability to replace them? Regier decided to look inward and overpay for his own players instead seeking outside replacements. Minnesota lost Gaborik this year and came right back to sign Havlet. The Sabres lost Drury, Briere and Campbell and reacted by overpaying Hecht, Pomminstein and Connolly.

 

I'm not so sure what to think about the Minnesota situation. They've got a new GM now in Fletcher, so there's a different line of thinking there now and he really didn't have all that much to do with keeping Gaborik up until his pending UFA.

[deluca67]

This is a very reasonable point. If Pommer and Hecht don't rebound, and/or if Connolly gets hurt again and misses 40% of the next 2 seasons, Darcy is accountable for those decisions. OTOH, if they do rebound, and Connolly stays healthy, then Darcy gets credit for keeping good players at reasonable contracts. That's fair.

What happens if Connolly is healthy and the others turn it around and they still miss the playoffs? Are we, or should we be, at a point where unless the team makes the playoffs anything that happens in the regular season will be over looked? There are those who are saying that same thing has happened this year. Just ask LQ and his spreadsheet. Have they run through all of their excuses to a point where any legitimate reasons for this team missing a third straight season will fall on deaf ears?

[deluca67]

I'm not so sure what to think about the Minnesota situation. They've got a new GM now in Fletcher, so there's a different line of thinking there now and he really didn't have all that much to do with keeping Gaborik up until his pending UFA.

I honestly don't follow the Wild that closely. I was impressed by the message the move sent to the fans. They lost a big ticket star and instead of blaming the system or turning it into an ugly affair like what happened here they made a decisive move. I can respect that.

[nfreeman]

What happens if Connolly is healthy and the others turn it around and they still miss the playoffs? Are we, or should we be, at a point where unless the team makes the playoffs anything that happens in the regular season will be over looked? There are those who are saying that same thing has happened this year. Just ask LQ and his spreadsheet. Have they run through all of their excuses to a point where any legitimate reasons for this team missing a third straight season will fall on deaf ears?

IMHO, unless there is an extreme rash of injuries or other bizarre circumstances, if they don't make the playoffs this year, both Darcy and Lindy should go.

[X. Benedict]

I honestly don't follow the Wild that closely. I was impressed by the message the move sent to the fans. They lost a big ticket star and instead of blaming the system or turning it into an ugly affair like what happened here they made a decisive move. I can respect that.

 

After years of trap hockey, that should come as a relief to them.(their fans)

The division is edgy enough to be entertaining, but generally not the most exciting team to watch.

 

A less successful version of the Devils.

[R_Dudley]

Thanks Deluca and Nfreeman, this was a very nicely done back and forth debate that really touched allot of good points. This is the type of discussion that keeps me coming back.

 

On a side note I was not on the debate team in school but lets ask PA's opinion since he added some fuel to the dicussion and he is a master of the craft and he brought Wilbur's onto the board thereby solidifying his credentials as a masterbater.. ;)

[Foligno's Nose]

But how will the pudding taste when it's time to eat? ???

:unsure:

:unsure:

:unsure:

[Foligno's Nose]

Just saw that the Leafs nabbed the "Swedish Monster" to help man the pipes. It is on the TSN page

Is he really a Monster or just Monster hype.

[Foligno's Nose]

He would be a great mentor for Myers et al...

If Myers turns out to be 3/4 Pronger, it'll be great.

 

Striking similarity in their builds coming into the league.

Pronger may have been a little heavier.

[Foligno's Nose]

In the case of Drury, I always suspected the Rangers got to him during the season. Which might explain his stance once the initial offer was not put officially on the table in the fall. Drury was already a Ranger during that playoff series when he spoke so fondly of Madison Square Garden. No one will ever convince me otherwise. Or nobody.

 

I am still shocked that this thinking exists out there.

With all due respect, I humbly disagree.

Drury was a goner when he did not get paid here.

Once he was on his way to become a FA, it was academic.

He was going to go 'home' essentially to play where he always dreamed, wear his hero Mattingly's number and, eventually, captain the blueshirts.

 

Tampering???

 

Come on.

[bob_sauve28]

If Myers turns out to be 3/4 Pronger, it'll be great.

 

Striking similarity in their builds coming into the league.

Pronger may have been a little heavier.

If he does turn into 3/4 of pronger that will be good, but it won't even be that for a good few years. He can't be rushed. Look at Sekera, at end of last year, just out of gas. The younger kids just are ready for the full NHL season, it seems to me.

 

I'm excited to see this kid play. I hope he is as good as all the talk about him.

[bob_sauve28]

I am still shocked that this thinking exists out there.

With all due respect, I humbly disagree.

Drury was a goner when he did not get paid here.

Once he was on his way to become a FA, it was academic.

He was going to go 'home' essentially to play where he always dreamed, wear his hero Mattingly's number and, eventually, captain the blueshirts.

 

Tampering???

 

Come on.

Oh come on, you don't think the Rangers could have got to his agents through back channels long before this? Remember how well Drury was playing at beginning of the season?

[X. Benedict]

Oh come on, you don't think the Rangers could have got to his agents through back channels long before this? Remember how well Drury was playing at beginning of the season?

 

To think that Sather negotiated 85 million in contracts with Gomez and Drury in in the first hour of free agency two years ago is even more amazing.