Shero's moves in Pitt

[wonderbread]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have Fleury in the minors the year he was drafted (2003) because they "didn't want/couldn't afford" to pay him while the team floundered? The next year they get Malkin with the second pick. The following year then win the lottery and get Crosby. That's 1-2-1 in successive years with the 2 being the year that Ovechkin AND Malkin were available. It's almost unfair...

 

 

They sent him down so he wouldn't get his bonus he was due.

[X. Benedict]

Fedatanko for one was a very important piece in the cup run. You conviently left him out. <_< as you also left out Adams, Gill and Cooke.

 

Once again you show what facts support your argument while leaving out the ones that don't.

 

Are you really telling me that Guerin didn't make the Pens a much improved team?

 

Signing Billy Guerin was a good move.....but you have to keep in mind Shero was also dumping salary for next year

by getting rid of Syddor and Whitney.

 

The thing that turned around the Pens season was Gonchar coming back.

I've never given the guy much credit, but before he came back the Pens power play was bad, the defense

was bad, and they almost missed the playoffs.

 

Gonchar was a pre-Shero move. I still not convinced that Pittsburgh has a good defense, but a "good enough" one.

 

The fact remains when you have center depth like Staal, Malkin, and Crosby up the middle that is the strength of the team.

Put Guerin, Adams, Gill, Kunitz, and Cooke on the Islanders and you have.....well, the Islanders.

[wonderbread]

Signing Billy Guerin was a good move.....but you have to keep in mind Shero was also dumping salary for next year

by getting rid of Syddor and Whitney.

 

The thing that turned around the Pens season was Gonchar coming back.

I've never given the guy much credit, but before he came back the Pens power play was bad, the defense

was bad, and they almost missed the playoffs.

 

Gonchar was a pre-Shero move. I still not convinced that Pittsburgh has a good defense, but a "good enough" one.

 

The fact remains when you have center depth like Staal, Malkin, and Crosby up the middle that is the strength of the team.

Put Guerin, Adams, Gill, Kunitz, and Cooke on the Islanders and you have.....well, the Islanders.

 

 

Point taken. Gonchar played the last two series w/ a partially torn MCL too! So with that being said if Shero picked up Dominick Moore and traded (insert random pens player here) would the Pens still have won a cup?

[thesportsbuff]

Seriously? :blink:

 

I looked through that listed of acquisitions... who the hell are they again?

 

If they were contributors, it is because they were cogs in a machine that featured 87, 71, 11, and 1. You honestly think Guerin and Kunitz makes us cup contenders?

 

We are missing the high end talent, not the cogs...

 

Of course any deals are going to work out 100x better if you have Crosby and Malkin on your team. But at least he made some deals, made some changes. What's Buffalo's list of acquisitions looked like this year? Traded Kotalik, acquired Dominic Moore , and didn't dump any salary. Oh, and we had Telqvist play a game or two. I expect to see the exact same team we had this year on the ice next year.

[X. Benedict]

Point taken. Gonchar played the last two series w/ a partially torn MCL too! So with that being said if Shero picked up Dominick Moore and traded (insert random pens player here) would the Pens still have won a cup?

 

I don't think that would have helped them much....but the Pens were already strong down the center.

 

The Sabres options were probably Mike Comrie, Ollie Jokkinen, and Dominic Moore.

I think Ollie Jokkinen last won a faceoff in 2005.

[shrader]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they have Fleury in the minors the year he was drafted (2003) because they "didn't want/couldn't afford" to pay him while the team floundered? The next year they get Malkin with the second pick. The following year then win the lottery and get Crosby. That's 1-2-1 in successive years with the 2 being the year that Ovechkin AND Malkin were available. It's almost unfair...

 

It's worth noting that Pittsburgh traded up from the 2nd spot in the draft to pick Fleury. But anyway, he started with Pittsburgh right away, but then was returned to juniors. He then spent the lockout season in the AHL.

 

Yes, they did pick him the year before Malkin, but I don't think he's a major part in this conversation, certainly not in the same sentence as Malkin-Crosby. Sure, being the goalie, he's an important piece, but I'd say the others (even Staal) mean much more to them.

 

Speaking of Staal, you might as well throw him into that draft succession you listed, making it 1(2)-2-1-2.

[SDS]

Fedatanko for one was a very important piece in the cup run. You conviently left him out. <_ as you also left out adams gill and cooke.>

 

Once again you show what facts support your argument while leaving out the ones that don't.

 

Are you really telling me that Guerin didn't make the Pens a much improved team?

 

 

include all the friggin people on Pitt that you want. The fact that *you* don't acknowledge the core they are adding to vs. our core speaks more to the argument than anything.

 

Pitt is taking a smokin' hot chick to the mall and shopping for pumps and thongs. Will she look better in the right outfit? You bet...

 

The Sabres are taking Rosie O-Donnell to the same mall, and while they can buy the same shoes and thong as Pitt - the end result just isn't the same now is it?

[X. Benedict]

include all the friggin people on Pitt that you want. The fact that *you* don't acknowledge the core they are adding to vs. our core speaks more to the argument than anything.

 

Pitt is taking a smokin' hot chick to the mall and shopping for pumps and thongs. Will she look better in the right outfit? You bet...

 

The Sabres are taking Rosie O-Donnell to the same mall, and while they can buy the same shoes and thong as Pitt - the end result just isn't the same now is it?

 

Ewwww. things are worse than I thought. :lol:

[wonderbread]

include all the friggin people on Pitt that you want. The fact that *you* don't acknowledge the core they are adding to vs. our core speaks more to the argument than anything.

 

Pitt is taking a smokin' hot chick to the mall and shopping for pumps and thongs. Will she look better in the right outfit? You bet...

 

The Sabres are taking Rosie O-Donnell to the same mall, and while they can buy the same shoes and thong as Pitt - the end result just isn't the same now is it?

 

 

My point was that they were in the same spot we were at the halfway mark, they made some moves that impacted their team positively. Our teams moves did not. If you want to use Carolina so be it. The went to the ECF with a team that was in a similar position as the Sabres at the midway point of the season. The moves that they made (adding Jokinen, and Cole) propelled them in the playoffs on a deep run.

 

nice anology though!

 

is that supposed to be a collective *you*?

[PASabreFan]

Wasn't Bylsma the Pens' biggest in-season acquisition. Maybe some of it was addition by subtraction, but that seems to be where the turnaround began. Therrien was just choking the life out of that team -- another coach, like Ruff, who looked clinically depressed behind the bench.

[wonderbread]

Wasn't Bylsma the Pens' biggest in-season acquisition. Maybe some of it was addition by subtraction, but that seems to be where the turnaround began. Therrien was just choking the life out of that team -- another coach, like Ruff, who looked clinically depressed behind the bench.

 

 

How many loss will it take next year before someone speaks up? or are we looking at another mulligan?

[PASabreFan]

How many loss will it take next year before someone speaks up? or are we looking at another mulligan?

 

Ruff's on the last year of his deal, right? He wasn't extended? Could this be one of those lame-duck situations?

[nfreeman]

My point was that they were in the same spot we were at the halfway mark, they made some moves that impacted their team positively. Our teams moves did not. If you want to use Carolina so be it. The went to the ECF with a team that was in a similar position as the Sabres at the midway point of the season. The moves that they made (adding Jokinen, and Cole) propelled them in the playoffs on a deep run.

 

nice anology though!

 

is that supposed to be a collective *you*?

It's worth noting that neither Carolina nor Pittsburgh lost their best skater and their goalie for a month or so down the stretch. Call it an excuse if you like, and the Sabres have other issues that need to be addressed, but I think the Sabres easily make the playoffs without the Miller and Vanek injuries.

 

Wasn't Bylsma the Pens' biggest in-season acquisition. Maybe some of it was addition by subtraction, but that seems to be where the turnaround began. Therrien was just choking the life out of that team -- another coach, like Ruff, who looked clinically depressed behind the bench.

Probably true, although hard to say for sure since Gonchar came back, and Guerin and Kunitz joined, right around the same time as the coaching change.

 

Ruff's on the last year of his deal, right? He wasn't extended? Could this be one of those lame-duck situations?

I could be wrong, but I think Lindy has 2 more years and Darcy just one.

[darksabre]

I think you're onto something. It's early, and my mind is still sharp, so I trust my judgment here. Plus, I just got my sponge bath and it has relaxed me to no end. This new PCA Troy is awesome!

 

Anyway... when we had the thread about what it would take for the Sabres to win a Cup, my thought was that it will take losing the small market mentality, the bottom-line-first focus. I think we're in the same ballpark here. It's going to take an attitude adjustment. The Sabres might talk the talk about the goal being to win a Cup, but I don't think they really believe their rhetoric. It's a comment for public consumption.

 

When the "brain trust" at the arena, starting with Golisano, decides it's going to win a Cup -- when something snaps in their fat, ego-swollen heads, when they realize they might be a few million short on their deathbeds but it won't matter because they will have given a gift to Buffalo that never will be forgotten, they will be LEGEND -- we'll be in better shape to do it. The task will still seem hard.

 

I'm sure a lot of people reading this will understand the idea of some impossible goal in life, an unfinished task, a personal Achilles Heel that held you back for years. And then you just slayed it. Quitting smoking maybe. Or drinking. Facing a personal demon of some sort. And when it was done, you asked yourself, why did that take 19 years to do?

 

Maybe when TG is playing "tennis" with The Grunter, he'll have an MI, fend off the Stu Grimson and decide what he wants on his tombstone is STANLEY CUP OWNER and not DISCOUNTHEADSTONES.COM.

 

But then we'd have to get rid of the much acclaimed tiered pricing program!

 

I think any fan would gladly pay more money if it guaranteed a consistent product on the ice. The Wings don't exactly come from a booming metropolis of expendable income but I bet they charge more for tickets than we do. And people buy them, because the product is typically good. They haven't missed the playoffs since 89-90.

 

The Sabres have missed the playoffs 6 times since 1990. The only teams that have missed the playoffs more than that are the Islanders, Rangers, Thrashers, Panthers, Lightning, Blackhawks, Bluejackets, Oilers, Kings, and Coyotes. That's not exactly a strong list of teams that I would like to be consistently better than. And some of those teams have even won the Stanley Cup amidst years of mediocrity!

 

Some teams continue to wallow in it and I don't care if they do, but Buffalo is a team with the fan base to drive a better product and management isn't taking advantage of that. There are teams out there like Boston that make the playoffs more often than we do and their fanbase is mediocre at best. Obviously management there has done something to provide a decent product despite fair weather fans.

 

We should be spending to the cap every year. As a team with such rabid fan base, we the fans deserve a better, more consistent product, even if it comes at the cost of higher prices.

[nfreeman]

But then we'd have to get rid of the much acclaimed tiered pricing program!

 

I think any fan would gladly pay more money if it guaranteed a consistent product on the ice. The Wings don't exactly come from a booming metropolis of expendable income but I bet they charge more for tickets than we do. And people buy them, because the product is typically good. They haven't missed the playoffs since 89-90.

 

The Sabres have missed the playoffs 6 times since 1990. The only teams that have missed the playoffs more than that are the Islanders, Rangers, Thrashers, Panthers, Lightning, Blackhawks, Bluejackets, Oilers, Kings, and Coyotes. That's not exactly a strong list of teams that I would like to be consistently better than. And some of those teams have even won the Stanley Cup amidst years of mediocrity!

 

Some teams continue to wallow in it and I don't care if they do, but Buffalo is a team with the fan base to drive a better product and management isn't taking advantage of that. There are teams out there like Boston that make the playoffs more often than we do and their fanbase is mediocre at best. Obviously management there has done something to provide a decent product despite fair weather fans.

 

We should be spending to the cap every year. As a team with such rabid fan base, we the fans deserve a better, more consistent product, even if it comes at the cost of higher prices.

The Sabres aren't going to spend to the cap, and it's not reasonable to complain about it. Buffalo is the third-poorest city in the country, with a declining population. There are no real prospects for improvement in those core realities.

 

Detroit has an area population over 5.3MM. Buffalo's is under 1.3MM.

 

Yes, the Sabres have passionate fans, who buy merchandise and fill up the building when the team is winning. But the local economy drives the (critical) revenue numbers for luxury boxes, club seats and local TV. That's just the truth.

 

It's also worth noting that the Sabres last year spent approximately double on payroll compared with their pre-lockout payroll.

[darksabre]

The Sabres aren't going to spend to the cap, and it's not reasonable to complain about it. Buffalo is the third-poorest city in the country, with a declining population. There are no real prospects for improvement in those core realities.

 

Detroit has an area population over 5.3MM. Buffalo's is under 1.3MM.

 

Yes, the Sabres have passionate fans, who buy merchandise and fill up the building when the team is winning. But the local economy drives the (critical) revenue numbers for luxury boxes, club seats and local TV. That's just the truth.

 

It's also worth noting that the Sabres last year spent approximately double on payroll compared with their pre-lockout payroll.

 

You are correct that Detroit has a larger population, which probably has a lot to do with it. Playing with some 2009 income and population data for both cities, Detroit has roughly 3 times as many people as Buffalo making over $35,000/yr, which I think is probably an acceptable level to be able to afford hockey tickets. So Detroit has more fans to buy tickets than Buffalo does. But we still sell out games easily when the Sabres are doing reasonable, and even when they aren't. Having less people capable of buying tickets may have some bearing on this whole "small market" idea, but at the end of the day, the Sabres will sell out games if the product is generally good. Having less people isn't going to stop the Sabres from making money if they manage the team properly.

 

As far as Sabres payroll, it's no surprise we spent more since the lockout. The Sabres were pretty bad in the 3 years before the lockout, barely above .500 for two of them. Pre-lockout we were getting what we paid for, which was nothing good. Spending more the last few years should have made this team better, but they spent poorly and we're one season away from being where we were in 02-03, but with twice as much financial baggage. We wouldn't have had to spend this much on lesser players if we had spent more sooner on the players that would have made this team better. Instead we're stuck with players like Hecht and Connolly who are making significantly more money than they should be.

 

I would like the Sabres to continue to spend money, but they need to do a better job with it, because spending a ton of money poorly still gets us nowhere fast.

[nfreeman]

You are correct that Detroit has a larger population, which probably has a lot to do with it. Playing with some 2009 income and population data for both cities, Detroit has roughly 3 times as many people as Buffalo making over $35,000/yr, which I think is probably an acceptable level to be able to afford hockey tickets. So Detroit has more fans to buy tickets than Buffalo does. But we still sell out games easily when the Sabres are doing reasonable, and even when they aren't. Having less people capable of buying tickets may have some bearing on this whole "small market" idea, but at the end of the day, the Sabres will sell out games if the product is generally good. Having less people isn't going to stop the Sabres from making money if they manage the team properly.

 

As far as Sabres payroll, it's no surprise we spent more since the lockout. The Sabres were pretty bad in the 3 years before the lockout, barely above .500 for two of them. Pre-lockout we were getting what we paid for, which was nothing good. Spending more the last few years should have made this team better, but they spent poorly and we're one season away from being where we were in 02-03, but with twice as much financial baggage. We wouldn't have had to spend this much on lesser players if we had spent more sooner on the players that would have made this team better. Instead we're stuck with players like Hecht and Connolly who are making significantly more money than they should be.

 

I would like the Sabres to continue to spend money, but they need to do a better job with it, because spending a ton of money poorly still gets us nowhere fast.

While I kinda sorta disagree on Connolly, I agree on the rest of this. As Tom Webster and others have been saying, the problem isn't so much cheapness on the part of the Sabres, it's been poor decisions on when and where to spend the money -- a toxic mix of failure to anticipate market trends plus incompetence.

[PASabreFan]

The Sabres aren't going to spend to the cap, and it's not reasonable to complain about it. Buffalo is the third-poorest city in the country, with a declining population. There are no real prospects for improvement in those core realities.

 

Detroit has an area population over 5.3MM. Buffalo's is under 1.3MM.

 

Yes, the Sabres have passionate fans, who buy merchandise and fill up the building when the team is winning. But the local economy drives the (critical) revenue numbers for luxury boxes, club seats and local TV. That's just the truth.

 

It's also worth noting that the Sabres last year spent approximately double on payroll compared with their pre-lockout payroll.

 

Detroit was the poorest city in the country in 2007 -- doubt that changed much in 2008 -- and its population is declining. In fact, the only other city in the country that lost people at a faster rate the first six years of this decade was New Orleans. Detroit has lost half its population in the last 30 years. http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNew...233659320070322

 

I've never understood why raw figures like this mean much. Most people in poor cities aren't poor and can afford hockey tickets. Besides, Buffalo's market is not just the city of Buffalo. And isn't the number to be concerned with the number of hockey fans, not just people? I bet there are more hockey fans in Buffalo than Dallas and Miami combined.

 

Yes, it's reasonable for me to complain about the Sabres not spending to the cap, because it's not my money. I don't care if Golisano doesn't make money. Hell, when he bought the team he said he didn't care if he made money. Appreciation of the franchise has made this a very good investment for the Cool Whip Tub-Saver. Real fans want the team to spend! Real fans don't play Fantasy Franchise.

 

I dream of the day all SabreSpacers will rise up, flex their calves, both hirsute and bare, and run, not walk, to HSBC Arena, torches in hand, shouting...WE WANT THE GODDAMN STANLEY CUP! Put away the spreadsheets, fellas. Nothing else matters.

[X. Benedict]

While I kinda sorta disagree on Connolly, I agree on the rest of this. As Tom Webster and others have been saying, the problem isn't so much cheapness on the part of the Sabres, it's been poor decisions on when and where to spend the money -- a toxic mix of failure to anticipate market trends plus incompetence.

 

Not incompetence as much as two years of mediocrity.

 

I don't think anybody took the Sabres lightly or said that is a night off, they just couldn't cut mustard.

Ever try to cut mustard......them things are hard and shiny and tricky to cut.

 

If anything they haven't been bad enough to consider completely retooling. Nor were the fans ready to lose

another "star".

[PASabreFan]

I could be wrong, but I think Lindy has 2 more years and Darcy just one.

 

I hunted around and found a fan blog that has those reversed. I think the blog is right. But maybe someone can find a more definitive link.

[nfreeman]

Detroit was the poorest city in the country in 2007 -- doubt that changed much in 2008 -- and its population is declining. In fact, the only other city in the country that lost people at a faster rate the first six years of this decade was New Orleans. Detroit has lost half its population in the last 30 years. http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNew...233659320070322

 

I've never understood why raw figures like this mean much. Most people in poor cities aren't poor and can afford hockey tickets. Besides, Buffalo's market is not just the city of Buffalo. And isn't the number to be concerned with the number of hockey fans, not just people? I bet there are more hockey fans in Buffalo than Dallas and Miami combined.

 

Yes, it's reasonable for me to complain about the Sabres not spending to the cap, because it's not my money. I don't care if Golisano doesn't make money. Hell, when he bought the team he said he didn't care if he made money. Appreciation of the franchise has made this a very good investment for the Cool Whip Tub-Saver. Real fans want the team to spend! Real fans don't play Fantasy Franchise.

 

I dream of the day all SabreSpacers will rise up, flex their calves, both hirsute and bare, and run, not walk, to HSBC Arena, torches in hand, shouting...WE WANT THE GODDAMN STANLEY CUP! Put away the spreadsheets, fellas. Nothing else matters.

More fans in Buffalo than in Dallas plus Miami? Maybe, maybe not. I'd be curious to see the TV numbers (total people watching, not percentage). More importantly: more fans in Buffalo who can afford to attend games than in Dallas plus Miami? I'd say probably not. Also more importantly: more fans in Buffalo who can afford club seats and luxury boxes, at Dallas/Miami prices, than in Dallas plus Miami? NFW.

 

As for Golisano's making money -- we've had this argument before, so I won't repeat everything, but I will say: nobody is interested in owning a team that loses millions per year. We all know how that story ends. And the appreciation in franchise value is neither here nor there. There are a million things that could happen tomorrow that would make much or all of that appreciation evaporate.

 

Not incompetence as much as two years of mediocrity.

 

I don't think anybody took the Sabres lightly or said that is a night off, they just couldn't cut mustard.

Ever try to cut mustard......them things are hard and shiny and tricky to cut.

 

If anything they haven't been bad enough to consider completely retooling. Nor were the fans ready to lose

another "star".

I agree that the team on the ice has been mediocre and not incompetent. My use of "incompetent" was meant to refer to the FO.

 

FWIW, I have no desire to see this team bottom out so we can get a slew of high draft picks like the Penguins got. There are a heckuva lot more teams that accumulated high picks and didn't go anywhere than there are teams like the Penguins who caught lightning in a bottle with Crosby and Malkin and to a lesser extent Staal.

[shrader]

FWIW, I have no desire to see this team bottom out so we can get a slew of high draft picks like the Penguins got. There are a heckuva lot more teams that accumulated high picks and didn't go anywhere than there are teams like the Penguins who caught lightning in a bottle with Crosby and Malkin and to a lesser extent Staal.

 

I'd argue against there being any need for that bolded statement. He's a good hockey player, but he's far from being elite. He doesn't make or break that team just like many of the others being discussed here. Any good hockey player is going to look that much better when he's behind Malkin-Crosby on the depth chart.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit bored at the moment, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

 

 

Edit: I have a hard time picturing the team any worse if they had taken Jonathan Toews, Nick Backstrom (the center), or Phil Kessel with that pick.

[X. Benedict]

I'd argue against there being any need for that bolded statement. He's a good hockey player, but he's far from being elite. He doesn't make or break that team just like many of the others being discussed here. Any good hockey player is going to look that much better when he's behind Malkin-Crosby on the depth chart.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit bored at the moment, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

 

I think Jordan Staal is good enough to build a franchise around in his own right.

He's only 20 ....in two years he'll be taking games over by himself. You could

see him getting physically stronger as the season went on.

[shrader]

I think Jordan Staal is good enough to build a franchise around in his own right.

He's only 20 ....in two years he'll be taking games over by himself. You could

see him getting physically stronger as the season went on.

 

I'd rather have Toews. It must be nice to go through 4 consecutive drafts that are loaded at the time of your pick. '04 and '05 were the big ones though, since there was a big drop in perceived talent after that pick.

[nfreeman]

I think Jordan Staal is good enough to build a franchise around in his own right.

He's only 20 ....in two years he'll be taking games over by himself. You could

see him getting physically stronger as the season went on.

 

I'd rather have Toews. It must be nice to go through 4 consecutive drafts that are loaded at the time of your pick. '04 and '05 were the big ones though, since there was a big drop in perceived talent after that pick.

I like Staal a lot, but I could go along with the preference for Toews (but not Backstrom or Kessel). As for Staal, though, while he isn't a truly "elite" player, I'd rather have him than any skater on the Sabres except possibly Vanek. So IMHO it's fair to include him in the lightning-in-a-bottle construct.