[OT] Winning Medal Count but losing...

[Guest Sloth]

Right now we're beating China 77 to 74 in Medals. W/ spare time I decided to see who was really winning the Olympics. I gave 3 points for a gold medal, 2 points for a silver, and 1 point for a bronze. When you do the calculations, China is kicking our arss 173 to 152. Those numbers are probably off by one or two because I did the calculations last night and didn't bother to write them down. In my opinion, China is winning this Olympics right now. Hopefully we'll make a comeback this week w/ track and field. What do you guys think? <_<

[carpandean]

Right now we're beating China 77 to 74 in Medals. W/ spare time I decided to see who was really winning the Olympics. I gave 3 points for a gold medal, 2 points for a silver, and 1 point for a bronze. When you do the calculations, China is kicking our arss 173 to 152. Those numbers are probably off by one or two because I did the calculations last night and didn't bother to write them down. In my opinion, China is winning this Olympics right now. Hopefully we'll make a comeback this week w/ track and field. What do you guys think? <_<

It's easier to figure now as they have 76 to our 77, but lead in Golds (43 to our 25), and even in Silver or better (57 to our 51). They definitely have the edge. However, with four times the population and a nation-wide drive to look as good as possible at home, it's not such a surprise.

 

Interestingly, the only confirmed doping case that I have heard of was a Chinese air pistol shooter, who was taking medicine that reduce shaking. Then, of course, there is the controversy of the twelve year old (not confirmed, but come on) Chinese gymnasts that are reported to be sixteen (required minimum age.)

[spndnchz]

It's not Thursday yet, but I'd like to complain about the tie-breaking in Gymnastics last night. Both USA and China had the same very high scores, yet they don't give out Gold medals to two people anymore in that sport so they go to a tiebreaker.

 

They always take out the highest and lowest scores of the judges, this leaves a tie. They break the tie by taking out the lowest score. This leaves China in the lead. But, ya know, if they take out the highest scores instead USA wins.

 

Why can't they both get a GOLD? Have a tie-breaker uneven bar routine that is scored again? Seems like bull to me these girls train for so long only to be beat out by a computer tally.

 

And Happy B-day Corp!

[Two or less]

Right now we're beating China 77 to 74 in Medals. W/ spare time I decided to see who was really winning the Olympics. I gave 3 points for a gold medal, 2 points for a silver, and 1 point for a bronze. When you do the calculations, China is kicking our arss 173 to 152. Those numbers are probably off by one or two because I did the calculations last night and didn't bother to write them down. In my opinion, China is winning this Olympics right now. Hopefully we'll make a comeback this week w/ track and field. What do you guys think? <_<

 

Total medals are pointless. Who cares who finishes in 3rd? Sure, it's a nice accomplishment to that athlete but in the way of competition, only golds count. All over the world, China is seen as kicking everyone's ass. USA 2nd.

 

In US, they try to make a little but out of total medals. It's kinda pointless. 3rd is 3rd, 1st is 1st. It's common sense.

[wjag]

I still don't get how China is dominating the weightlifting gold medals..

[tom webster]

It's not Thursday yet, but I'd like to complain about the tie-breaking in Gymnastics last night. Both USA and China had the same very high scores, yet they don't give out Gold medals to two people anymore in that sport so they go to a tiebreaker.

 

They always take out the highest and lowest scores of the judges, this leaves a tie. They break the tie by taking out the lowest score. This leaves China in the lead. But, ya know, if they take out the highest scores instead USA wins.

Why can't they both get a GOLD? Have a tie-breaker uneven bar routine that is scored again? Seems like bull to me these girls train for so long only to be beat out by a computer tally.

 

And Happy B-day Corp!

 

 

That's not exactlyt how they broke the tie, but it is a screwy system anyway. On the other hand, the whole scoring system is kind of subjective anyway so what's really the difference?

[nobody]

That's not exactlyt how they broke the tie, but it is a screwy system anyway. On the other hand, the whole scoring system is kind of subjective anyway so what's really the difference?

 

 

That is how they explained it on NBC.

[tom webster]

That is how they explained it on NBC.

 

 

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/418090.html

 

They either didn't explain it well or simply didn't understand but here is the the link;

[spndnchz]

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/story/418090.html

 

They either didn't explain it well or simply didn't understand but here is the the link;

I didn't read the News article, but here's one I found

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/olympics/...reaker_exp.html

explaining it. Didn't bust my head reading it either, still think they give two Golds.

 

How would they break a tie in track? Give the medal to whomever led after 50M? :chris:

[Two or less]

It's funny, because just after reading this thread, i ran into this article. lol

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/b...?urn=oly,101537

[nobody]

How would they break a tie in track? Give the medal to whomever led after 50M?

 

 

They don't. Women's 100m:

Gold: FRASER Shelly-Ann 10.78

Silver: SIMPSON Sherone 10.98

Silver: STEWART Kerron 10.98

 

Only gymnastics is wacky.

[nobody]

Reading those articles shows what NBC said and the official way really are pretty much the same just the official way makes it more confusing for people. Officially they are looking at the deductions and taking away the highest remaining deduction in the deciding tiebraker- that is the same as taking away the lowest remaining score.

[Team Strike Force]

The leader in gold medals should be considered the most athletic country, or whatever the distinction is. Silvers and bronzes, while nice keepsakes, are given to those who are not quite the best. That's not to say that any medal winner shouldn't be happy with their accomplishment, though.

[Guest Sloth]

The leader in gold medals should be considered the most athletic country, or whatever the distinction is. Silvers and bronzes, while nice keepsakes, are given to those who are not quite the best. That's not to say that any medal winner shouldn't be happy with their accomplishment, though.

 

I think most of us will second that. I just don't see how China is dominating these games. I'm not trying to be biased, but sports play a major role in our countries society and we should be w/ in contention. Other than swimming, our country is getting it's arss kicked. I guess too many people are starting to choose the Burger King route instead of the play a sport route.

 

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, but I do watch some of it during the Olympics. The only person in gymnastics I can tell you something about is Bela Karoli, I'm sure I spelled his name wrong, and he said the new style of officiating and new rules are ruining the sport. W/ the experience and the accomplishments this man has had how can I not believe him? The US chick got screwed.

[spndnchz]

I think most of us will second that. I just don't see how China is dominating these games. I'm not trying to be biased, but sports play a major role in our countries society and we should be w/ in contention. Other than swimming, our country is getting it's arss kicked. I guess too many people are starting to choose the Burger King route instead of the play a sport route.

 

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, but I do watch some of it during the Olympics. The only person in gymnastics I can tell you something about is Bela Karoli, I'm sure I spelled his name wrong, and he said the new style of officiating and new rules are ruining the sport. W/ the experience and the accomplishments this man has had how can I not believe him? The US chick got screwed.

I'm sure if we (USA) took more kids away from their parents at age 3 we would have more Golds. :death:

[Screamin'Weasel]

Reading those articles shows what NBC said and the official way really are pretty much the same just the official way makes it more confusing for people. Officially they are looking at the deductions and taking away the highest remaining deduction in the deciding tiebraker- that is the same as taking away the lowest remaining score.

I agree. According to the articles, the highest deduction remaining (after the original highest and lowest scores were already thrown out) is removed. According to NBC, the lowest score remaining (after the original highest and lowest scores were already thrown out) is removed. Both methods will always garner the same result. Yes, the articles stated the official practice and NBC simplifyed it but Spndnchz's original comment was correct.

 

Also, Vanek-Man, I read that article and planned to link to it myself. For those of you that don't follow links:

 

The REAL Olympic medal count

By Chris Chase

 

Look, I don't know much about gymnastics, but I do know that landing a vault on two feet is better than landing one on two knees. Olympic gymnastics judges evidently disagree with me, as they awarded China's Cheng Fei a bronze medal yesterday even after she fell on her vault landing. American Alicia Sacramone finished fourth despite, you know, not falling.

 

And today, 12-year old 16-year old Chinese gymnast He Kexin won gold over Nastia Liukin based on an obscure tiebreaking rule. The two received the same score from the judges, but He won a tiebreak because an Australian judge apparently was watching a different competition.

 

Every judging break seems to have gone China's way during these Olympics. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, I just think that judges are humans who are influenced by big names, fans and other external factors. Oh, and they're also terrible. Judged events will always be viewed with skepticism by those who lose for this reason, particularly those who lose to a member of the home delegation. (Think Roy Jones Jr. at the 1988 Seoul Olympics.)

 

It is because of this skewed inconsistency that Fourth-Place Medal introduces The Real 2008 Medal Count. Our medal count will tally medals won in sports decided on the field of play, not by a judge in a teal blazer.

 

The judged Olympic events we will ignore for our tally are: boxing, diving, equestrian, gymnastics, judo, taekwondo, trampoline and wrestling. We debated whether to include boxing, wrestling and the martial arts in the list, as they can be decided by competitors. However, because the judging is prone to error and shenaningans, we will include it.

 

The Real 2008 Medal Count

 

China: 22 gold; 11 silver; 11 bronze (Total: 44)

 

United States: 21 gold; 19 silver; 21 bronze (Total: 61)

 

As you can see, in the events where medals are determined by competitors rather than judges, the gold medal gap between China and the U.S. is greatly narrowed, and the total medal count is an American runaway. Counting the judged events, China has a commanding lead in golds. Hmmm... Nope, nothing fishy about that!

Link

[Guest Sloth]

I agree. According to the articles, the highest deduction remaining (after the original highest and lowest scores were already thrown out) is removed. According to NBC, the lowest score remaining (after the original highest and lowest scores were already thrown out) is removed. Both methods will always garner the same result. Yes, the articles stated the official practice and NBC simplifyed it but Spndnchz's original comment was correct.

 

Also, Vanek-Man, I read that article and planned to link to it myself. For those of you that don't follow links:

Link

 

I know I'll get slammed for this, but I think if the sport doesn't involve man vs. man, a race, a football or hockey game, etc..., man vs. height, a high jump, or a distance, shot put, it's not a sport. Anything where the scoring is PURELY based on someone's opinion is not a sport. Now, YOU DO HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC to compete in gymnastics, diving, etc...I will will not and cannot argue against that. But, I do not think they are sports.

[JujuFish]

Also, Vanek-Man, I read that article and planned to link to it myself. For those of you that don't follow links:

Link

I was just thinking about calculating that exact thing. The judging events sure seem to be skewed in China's favor. Of course, there's always a little bit of a home town advantage, but this is ridiculous.

[JujuFish]

I know I'll get slammed for this, but I think if the sport doesn't involve man vs. man, a race, a football or hockey game, etc..., man vs. height, a high jump, or a distance, shot put, it's not a sport. Anything where the scoring is PURELY based on someone's opinion is not a sport. Now, YOU DO HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC to compete in gymnastics, diving, etc...I will will not and cannot argue against that. But, I do not think they are sports.

Equestrian particularly comes to mind. Not only is it a judged event, but it involves the performance of an animal as well.

[jayg]

They do have 1 billion more "potential" athletes. With China's government really pushing training before these games the medal results are no surprise. In fact, NBC commentators have stated a number of times that China would lead in medals, golds especially. My question is what the hell is wrong with India?!?! :rolleyes:

 

I think most of us will second that. I just don't see how China is dominating these games. I'm not trying to be biased, but sports play a major role in our countries society and we should be w/ in contention. Other than swimming, our country is getting it's arss kicked. I guess too many people are starting to choose the Burger King route instead of the play a sport route.

 

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, but I do watch some of it during the Olympics. The only person in gymnastics I can tell you something about is Bela Karoli, I'm sure I spelled his name wrong, and he said the new style of officiating and new rules are ruining the sport. W/ the experience and the accomplishments this man has had how can I not believe him? The US chick got screwed.

[wjag]

They do have 1 billion more "potential" athletes. With China's government really pushing training before these games the medal results are no surprise. In fact, NBC commentators have stated a number of times that China would lead in medals, golds especially. My question is what the hell is wrong with India?!?! :rolleyes:

India sent just 72 athletes to the games. What really made me laugh was the previous Winter Olympic games. I was watching the Parade of Nations and India comes in. One guy. Yep one guy in a country of 1.1B people went to the Winter Olympics. Heck Cuba had like seven guys...

[MattPie]

I'm not a fan of gymnastics, but I do watch some of it during the Olympics. The only person in gymnastics I can tell you something about is Bela Karoli, I'm sure I spelled his name wrong, and he said the new style of officiating and new rules are ruining the sport. W/ the experience and the accomplishments this man has had how can I not believe him? The US chick got screwed.

 

Think of it this way: Bela *may* be the Don Cherry of gymnastics (I don't follow gymnastics, so don't ask me). The IOC (NHL) is ruining gymnastics (hockey) with all these ticky-tack penalties. They should let the gymnasts play!

[MattPie]

I know I'll get slammed for this, but I think if the sport doesn't involve man vs. man, a race, a football or hockey game, etc..., man vs. height, a high jump, or a distance, shot put, it's not a sport. Anything where the scoring is PURELY based on someone's opinion is not a sport. Now, YOU DO HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC to compete in gymnastics, diving, etc...I will will not and cannot argue against that. But, I do not think they are sports.

 

I'd go even further: the only true Olympic sports are the ones that invole completely measurable things: higher, faster, further, etc., but not goals or points. I'd leave team competition out since there are too may variables that determine direct team-vs-team outcome other than 'this is the best athlete in the world'. This doesn't include relay races, since the teams are competing against the clock.

[Guest Sloth]

I'd go even further: the only true Olympic sports are the ones that invole completely measurable things: higher, faster, further, etc., but not goals or points. I'd leave team competition out since there are too may variables that determine direct team-vs-team outcome other than 'this is the best athlete in the world'. This doesn't include relay races, since the teams are competing against the clock.

 

Bill Bowerman said the Olympics was simply being "faster, higher, stronger." This is what the Olympics used to be about, but I don't feel it is that way today. I asked my wife last night what would the original IOC think about todays Olympics. Would they be satisfied? Would they feel it has the spirit and unity it is supposed to have? I love the Olympics, but I don't think it has the spirit and unity it is supposed to have. As Bill Bowerman said, the Olympics is about being "faster, highter, stornger." I believe that removes judgemental sports, such as equastrian.

 

*Bill Bowerman is the greatest track and field coach to ever exist. He coached the likes of Steve Prefontaine, who is arguablyAmerica's greatest distance runner. Prefontaine died at the age of 23 or 24 around 1973. Distane runners don't hit their prime until the their LATE 20's.

[spndnchz]

I know I'll get slammed for this, but I think if the sport doesn't involve man vs. man, a race, a football or hockey game, etc..., man vs. height, a high jump, or a distance, shot put, it's not a sport. Anything where the scoring is PURELY based on someone's opinion is not a sport. Now, YOU DO HAVE TO BE ATHLETIC to compete in gymnastics, diving, etc...I will will not and cannot argue against that. But, I do not think they are sports.

I see your point, but here's another.

 

In boxing, if someone doesn't get knocked out or tko'd they go to judges don't they? So since these judges have an opinon of who won, boxing isn't a sport? hmmmm...