What constitutes as news

[inkman]

I understand this website, Sabrespace/Sabresreport, was created as a gathering place for all us fans. From the message board that so many of us are addicted to, to the informative front page where we can pick through delectable Sabre goodies, I really love everything about this site (perhaps outside of Deluca :nana: ). Except for one minor exception that I have seen with more and more frequency.

 

I'm not really sure when or where LetsGoSabres.com came from. Perhaps someone here knows them, I don't know. Everytime I read a piece of "journalism" from their site, I cringe with the feeling that I am reading a high schoolers take on my beloved team. Lets reflect on the most recent sample.

 

Linky

 

In case you haven?t noticed, the Buffalo Sabres have been on a streak of world beating.

 

I want to stab myself in the head everytime I read this. :death:

 

The game last Thursday against the Boston Bruins typified everything that is amazing and ass puckering about this hockey team.

 

Perhaps this dude is watching a different type of hockey.

 

it slipped right between his legs and onto the stick of Johnny on the Spot

 

Is this describing hockey play by play or the last porno he watched?

 

Danny Briere, otherwise known as "money,"

 

Is Deluca writing these?

 

 

 

 

Is this really worthy of being included along with actual journalistic pieces?

[BetweenThePipes00]

I could not agree more. I love that they compile all the media stories for us, but i rarely click on the ones like this ... they are basically just fan blogs. It's not that I think I know more or anything like that, it's just that I'm sure a lot of people come to the site and assume they ARE legit media when they see it on the list in between the Buffalo News and the Rochester D&C ... and they could not be more different. It's the same way with that realfootbal365 crap on Two Bills Drive. It's crap.

[SDS]

I have gone back and forth through the years between including and excluding articles from fan sites. I guess in recent months I have left it up to the reader to enjoy/dismiss authors/sites as they see fit.

 

I think Mark does a bang up job on his articles, but it sounds like this one is off the mark, so to speak. ;)

[BetweenThePipes00]

I understand the spot you're in, SDS, having to make that call, I just think by mixing them in with stuff from the News and D&C or whatever it lends a certain credibility to them that might not be deserved. They are good blogs and all, but really no different from the blogs on this site. I contribute to our blogs and i don't really consider what i do the same as what Tim Graham or Bucky Gleason does.

But again, I understand your position, and I probably don't give people enough credit to tell the difference on their own.

[SDS]

I understand the spot you're in, SDS, having to make that call, I just think by mixing them in with stuff from the News and D&C or whatever it lends a certain credibility to them that might not be deserved. They are good blogs and all, but really no different from the blogs on this site. I contribute to our blogs and i don't really consider what i do the same as what Tim Graham or Bucky Gleason does.

But again, I understand your position, and I probably don't give people enough credit to tell the difference on their own.

 

On a stylistic note - I have been pondering lately if our articles shouldn't be classified better. Local/national/opposing/pre-game/postgame, etc... Should we break them out into categories instead of just a straight forward chronological order?

[inkman]

On a stylistic note - I have been pondering lately if our articles shouldn't be classified better. Local/national/opposing/pre-game/postgame, etc... Should we break them out into categories instead of just a straight forward chronological order?

 

The front page is a little cluttery to begin with. It could really eff with the aestetics.

 

I think Mark does a bang up job on his articles, but it sounds like this one is off the mark, so to speak. ;)

 

It should be pointed out that the writer was not Mark, who usually does a better job.

[frisky]

On a stylistic note - I have been pondering lately if our articles shouldn't be classified better. Local/national/opposing/pre-game/postgame, etc... Should we break them out into categories instead of just a straight forward chronological order?

 

I really love this site and all the news articles and think you're doing a bang up job. As for me, I can usually tell pretty easily which ones are national opposing local etc. And usually can tell if it's a pre-game article or not just by the titles and the source. And, I can tell whether it's a blog like thing such as LGS. I think if you were to make a change the only thing I would do is separate the news articles from the fan entries. Or use some kind of color code or use a little icon or something to distinguish between them

[PASabreFan]

Hey, letsgosabres.com broke the news (no pun intended) that Henrik Tallinder had a broken arm. The mainstream media seemed to want to keep the lid on any bad news, I guess. For a fan site, that was pretty impressive.

 

ink, if you're going to exclude commentaries from the list of articles, would you still link to a Bucky Gleason column? As for the term "actual journalistic pieces," that's funny -- when you see one, let me know. Even the beat reporters fill their columns with plenty of opinion. Tim Graham comes off as a fan at times, too.

 

I think fan sites can offer good information and analysis as well as opinion. At sabresfans.com, T.J. Schmudde writes pregame and postgame analysis that is as good as anything you will see in the mainstream press. In fact, you won't see anything like it in the mainstream press. And yet it comes from a huge fan.

 

I just think the line between fan sites and the media has been blurred. People should look at the quality of commentary and information and not the source -- there's good and bad stuff from both sides. So I think SDS is correct to place the links there and let the people decide. More links are always better than fewer.

 

And, SDS, I wouldn't change a thing on the links page. I don't like change! Grumble grumble...

[inkman]

ink, if you're going to exclude commentaries from the list of articles, would you still link to a Bucky Gleason column? As for the term "actual journalistic pieces," that's funny -- when you see one, let me know. Even the beat reporters fill their columns with plenty of opinion. Tim Graham comes off as a fan at times, too.

 

Trust me that was going through my dome all the while I was typing. I suppose I came off a little narrow minded, I just get irked when I am reading something and "ass pucker" gets dropped into the middle of the piece.

[PASabreFan]

ink, you zeem to haff a zertain obzession wit zee puckering of zee ass, azz you zay. Vy don't you lie down on ziss couch and dizcuss your childhood... :)

[inkman]

ink, you zeem to haff a zertain obzession wit zee puckering of zee ass, azz you zay. Vy don't you lie down on ziss couch and dizcuss your childhood... :)

 

:lol:

[Knightrider]

 

I think Mark does a bang up job on his articles...

 

 

Mark is definately doing a better job than some "professionals". :thumbsup:

[Bmwolf21]

Hey, letsgosabres.com broke the news (no pun intended) that Henrik Tallinder had a broken arm. The mainstream media seemed to want to keep the lid on any bad news, I guess. For a fan site, that was pretty impressive.

Great job by LGS.com, but I really doubt the mainstream media has any stake in keeping an injury secret - if they did, you wouldn't see them constantly rushing to try to scoop one another.

ink, if you're going to exclude commentaries from the list of articles, would you still link to a Bucky Gleason column? As for the term "actual journalistic pieces," that's funny -- when you see one, let me know. Even the beat reporters fill their columns with plenty of opinion. Tim Graham comes off as a fan at times, too.

I'll take the beat reporters' opinions, even Bucky Gleason's, over those of a fan site almost any day of the week, since beat reporters usually travel with the teams, have more sources, etc. A fan site might know someone here or there, but I bet most of the time they don't have as many sources as Gleason or Tim Graham. The problem with columnists comes when they become part of the story (Jim Kelley) rather than an objective reporter.

I think fan sites can offer good information and analysis as well as opinion. At sabresfans.com, T.J. Schmudde writes pregame and postgame analysis that is as good as anything you will see in the mainstream press. In fact, you won't see anything like it in the mainstream press. And yet it comes from a huge fan.

No argument here, as fan sites can offer good analysis and info as well, but it is also easier to be critical of players and coaches when you're not talking to them directly. You also run the risk of the dreaded "quote taken out of context" when you use players'/coaches' comments "secondhand."

I just think the line between fan sites and the media has been blurred. People should look at the quality of commentary and information and not the source -- there's good and bad stuff from both sides. So I think SDS is correct to place the links there and let the people decide. More links are always better than fewer.

I don't think the line is blurred much, if at all; there are a lot of good writers who write for fan sites in order to get their work out there and get noticed by someone. But no matter how good a writer or how good their analysis is, it is still a fan site, which usually has little interaction with the team itself.

 

PA - what is your beef with the media? I know people get frustrated with the News and with national outlets like ESPN and The Sporting News, but part of that has to do with lack of competition (most mid- and small-markets have just one newspaper nowadays) and the image of hockey as a "cult sport." As someone who has had the pleasure of working as a sports reporter, even on a limited basis, I can assure you of a couple things - it is not an easy job, it's not just "sit around, watch a game & talk about it a little;" and like being a coach, your work seems to be constantly criticized.

[PASabreFan]

I think the media just got lazy when it came to the Tallinder story. They were more than happy to go with the official "upper body injury" until the Sabres said otherwise. But a fan site doesn't think that way. They thirst for information just like the rest of the fans. Competition among the Buffalo's newspapers? Is The News going to compete with itself?

 

BM, I think you are wrong about the motivation of those who work for fan sites. I don't think PTS or SDS or the folks at other sites are angling for media jobs, I really don't. The writers are fans who love the sport and the art of writing, just for the fun of it. Kind of like volunteer firefighters -- put out a fire, have a beer, go home to the kids. They don't want to be pros. :)

 

I have no beef with the media, and I don't think being a sports reporter is easy. I just think a lot serious fans get frustrated by the lack of indepth coverage and the mistakes you see, especially in postgame wire reports (one of which had a Boston player on the ice along with Tim Thomas during the shootout -- that's quite a ). So they might look to fan sites to deliver what they crave. I mentioned the pre- and postgame reports at sabresfans.com. How about the player rankings at lgs.com? Are you going to see that in the News? How about getting your opinion published? Good luck with that letter to the paper. The mainstream media has done nothing to create a community of fans online, and the message board at sabres.com is not popular. So fans created one themselves. Guys like SDS are like the founding fathers of our online nation.

 

I'm tired and rambling. You get the jist...

[Bmwolf21]

PA, I don't disagree one bit about mistakes being made, laziness, lack of coverage/commitment from news organizations, or even that there are some really good fan sites out there with good content and good writers. It frustrates me to no end to know that I could do a better job than some of the guys currently employed, but yet I can't seem to get my foot in the door full-time.

 

The biggest drawback to the mainstream media (and mainly I am focusing on print/Internet, since that seems to be where the conversation was headed) is lack of competition, as I said in my original post. Most small- & mid-sized markets have just one newspaper, which gives that publication a virtual home-town monopoly on the team's coverage. Zero competition = reporters & editors get fat & lazy when covering the local team. I've seen firsthand where competition between papers can get nasty, but it does drive both papers to dig deeper, do a better job, etc.

 

Competition between the leagues is another aspect - face it, in most U.S. markets, the NHL is behind almost every other sport - in Buffalo, it seems like the News' coverage has been Bills 90% Yankees 4% Sabres 3% Bisons/everything else 3%. The Sabres are pushing for more coverage, but I don't know that it will ever threaten the NFL's coverage.

 

Also the News doesn't see any of the other local media outlets as competition - they have a different medium than TV & radio, and have pretty much given the finger to Internet readers, since I can't remember ever seeing any blogs, breaking news updates, nothing. Once you get past the day's headlines/top stories online, what reason is there to go back during the day?

 

That's where fan sites come in - they exist to fill that void with pregame info, analysis, commentary, opinion, etc. And while some fan sites (like SabreSpace and LetsGoSabres.com) do some pretty good work, all things considered, I don't think it's fair to include them with the mainstream media, or say that the line has blurred between the two. (I would also argue that there are as many aspiring writers submitting work to the fan sites to build their portfolios as there are guys who do it for the fun of doing it, and the love of the team, community, all that; like PTS and SDS, who don't get nearly enough thanks or props for all their hard work.) But the earlier comments about the writing style (or lack thereof) what appears to be a lack of editorial consideration, and blog-esque commentary are dead-on, and it makes me chuckle that some believe this type of article "blurs the line" between fan sites and mainstream media.

 

Pyrite Gal-type post over, how about a beer for SDS & PTS? Thanks again, guys - all the hard work is MUCHO appreciated... :beer:

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

I have gone back and forth through the years...

 

Ummmm........okay..... ;)

[SDS]

Ummmm........okay..... ;)

 

Well, when I say including - I mean asking you nicely to include/exclude... :blush:

[PASabreFan]

I would also argue that there are as many aspiring writers submitting work to the fan sites to build their portfolios as there are guys who do it for the fun of doing it, and the love of the team, community, all that; like PTS and SDS, who don't get nearly enough thanks or props for all their hard work.)

 

All due respect, but you are absolutely wrong about that. Are you talking about Sabre fan sites? There are only a few, and I have a pretty good knowledge of how those sites work. If there's one contributor who's looking to build a resume, I would be surprised (the only exception might be the college kid whose work Ink took apart, and I believe he was contacted by the site to contribute, not the other way around). And the same goes for now-defunct fan sites. Maybe SDS can comment -- do you think any of your contributors are building their resumes? BM, it really is a labor of love. No one is making much, if any, money either. If they are, it's quickly spent on the site.

 

But the earlier comments about the writing style (or lack thereof) what appears to be a lack of editorial consideration, and blog-esque commentary are dead-on, and it makes me chuckle that some believe this type of article "blurs the line" between fan sites and mainstream media.

 

Can we ban the word "blog." God, I hate that. Commentary is commentary, whether it appears on a fan site, a message board, a blog or a newspaper site. When some of that commentary, written by fans, shows just as much "editorial consideration," the line is indeed blurred. With many sports writers behaving like fans anyway, celebrating the team when they win and ripping them when they lose, the line is blurred even further.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Can we ban the word "blog." God, I hate that. Commentary is commentary, whether it appears on a fan site, a message board, a blog or a newspaper site. When some of that commentary, written by fans, shows just as much "editorial consideration," the line is indeed blurred. With many sports writers behaving like fans anyway, celebrating the team when they win and ripping them when they lose, the line is blurred even further.

 

I think where the line is VERY black and white and not blurred at all is when it comes to stories like Tim Graham's piece on Connolly today. When the guy can talk to the owner, president, GM, coach AND player, he is bringing something to the table that no fan writing a "commentary," to use your word, can. And to put a link to this story in the same space as a link ANY fan commentary, no matter how well-written or well-informed, is misleading to me. Maybe I don't give people enough credit to know the difference, but too many times you see things on boards or hear things said by callers into sports talk radio and there is some moronic thing that they "read on the Internet" and it has ZERO basis in fact. You have to consider the source, and too often people use these commentaries as sources of fact when they are nothing of the sort. You may not agree with the opinions of Graham, or Bucky Gleason or Jim Kelley, but you cannot dispute where they got their supporting facts when they have quotes from the subjects themselves. There IS a line there and to me it is not blurry at all.

[Bmwolf21]

All due respect, but you are absolutely wrong about that. Are you talking about Sabre fan sites? There are only a few, and I have a pretty good knowledge of how those sites work. If there's one contributor who's looking to build a resume, I would be surprised (the only exception might be the college kid whose work Ink took apart, and I believe he was contacted by the site to contribute, not the other way around). And the same goes for now-defunct fan sites. Maybe SDS can comment -- do you think any of your contributors are building their resumes? BM, it really is a labor of love. No one is making much, if any, money either. If they are, it's quickly spent on the site.

All due respect, but you're dead wrong about fan sites in general. Maybe the handful of Sabres fan sites run like that, but in the past I have seen job ads for and contacted fan sites (not Sabres') regarding writing opportunities. To a "T" almost all of them have offered the same thing - a chance to write about sports, about a pro or college team, and build your portfolio, for limited or no compensation. Most couldn't even offer a chance to go to the games as accredited media, so you were left to do everything on your own. Nowadays, most fan sites don't have to advertise or ask for writers, because there are so many people out there looking to ge their foot in the door that they'll write for a fan site while working somewhere else.

Can we ban the word "blog." God, I hate that. Commentary is commentary, whether it appears on a fan site, a message board, a blog or a newspaper site. When some of that commentary, written by fans, shows just as much "editorial consideration," the line is indeed blurred. With many sports writers behaving like fans anyway, celebrating the team when they win and ripping them when they lose, the line is blurred even further.

That might be stretching it quite a bit - there is no way a message board post or an everyday, garden-variety blog is the same as an article or column by a journalist. First, generally there is no one to edit or review the message board posts, blogs, or fan site commentary. Second, blogging and message boards have spawned a new breed of Internet pseudo-experts - allowing every idiot with a keyboard and an Internet connection the opportunity to pass themselves off as an instant "expert" despite no evidence to support that. Some fan sites might do a good job of reviewing their writers' work and watching for inaccuracies, libelous statements, etc., but some don't. The good ones quickly become more than fan sites, they in essence become news sites, and as such, I will grant that in such cases, the line is somewhat blurred.

 

Inserting opinion in sports reporting is not a bad thing - columnists and sports reporters do inject opinions into their coverage based on some fact, be it trends in gameplay; conversations with players, coaches and management; press conferences, etc. Even game recaps get the opinion treatment, as most readers now want to know "Why?" more than anything else - they can read a box score, check online, etc to get who scored and who made how many saves, but they read the recaps and commentaries to see how it happened, why it happened, and why it will or won't happen again.

 

With all news, however, it comes down to credibility - who do you trust to get it right? It takes a couple of good, accurate "scoops" coupled with solid writing skills to get me to acknowledge a writer's skills. For example - does anyone believe any of the trade rumors one of our occasional/former poster puts on his site?

 

PA, thanks for engaging in a civil, substantial debate that doesn't include the slug, the "value" of Andrew Peters or fighters in general or Tom Golisano's sugar packet-stealing addiction

And BTP - good post.

[SCSabresFan!]

As a professional in the media business who works with many writers I agree with most of the points in this thread. "Blogs" are quickly becoming mainstream media - a source for news. Did anyone see Election coverage last night? In South Carolina they had a PANEL of bloggers discussing the elections and they sat in front of the editor from the State newspaper in Columbia. I can also tell you from experience that many times writers don't want to rock the boat. They have access to owners/players/SID's and sometimes keep things under wraps to protect their access. From injuries to personal problems, I've heard them all over the years. I KNOW writers have juicy information at hand, but don't pull the trigger on an article.

 

If I need a Sabres fix, I call X Benedict and get his take. He knows more than Bucky Gleason or Luke DeCock about hockey and I trust his take on the mighty blue swords. He doesn't get the nickname "hockey sherpa" for nothing. Don't discount the option or news of blog writers and kudos to founding father SDS for keeping this site up and running.

[Knightrider]

You have to consider the source, and too often people use these commentaries as sources of fact when they are nothing of the sort. You may not agree with the opinions of Graham, or Bucky Gleason or Jim Kelley, but you cannot dispute where they got their supporting facts when they have quotes from the subjects themselves.

 

Regardless of how information is conveyed, you should always consider the source. I happen to lean right, so I take most things from the Boston Globe (my local paper) with a grain of salt. They do have online updates though for sports which are usually true news. That shows that the print media can understand that they are in grave danger of becoming extinct.

 

There are lots of columns, but very seldom is there true sports news. News in general is pretty boring to read or listen to if it is done right.

 

In the past, there were the Courier Expresses to provide competition and insure good, accurate reporting. Online sites help fill that void.

[PASabreFan]

I think where the line is VERY black and white and not blurred at all is when it comes to stories like Tim Graham's piece on Connolly today. When the guy can talk to the owner, president, GM, coach AND player, he is bringing something to the table that no fan writing a "commentary," to use your word, can.

 

Well, when you compare a hard news piece like Graham's -- which was superb, by the way, if he's not glossing over some of the disturbing rumblings around the arena about Connolly, which may or may not be true -- with commentary, of course the line is clear. I am sticking to my guns that a fan can write an opinion piece that's just as good as something Bucky Gleason writes, and thanks to the Internet they both have a chance to be read around the world. Thus, the line is blurred. Of course no fan site writer can have the access that Bucky does, so you can always argue that his opinions have more weight behind them. Then again, we're talking about Bucky "Mario is washed up" Gleason here. :)

 

There might be a generational issue here. Older folks probably still put their trust in traditional media. They believe what they read in the paper. Like Larry Felser often says, "don't believe these Internet guys." He is 106. Younger people, who tend to get their news from Jon Stewart, might just be more open-minded, evaluating the information on its own merit whether it's wrapped in a newspaper or broadcast on a TV set.

[Knightrider]

I think where the line is VERY black and white and not blurred at all is when it comes to stories like Tim Graham's piece on Connolly today. When the guy can talk to the owner, president, GM, coach AND player, he is bringing something to the table that no fan writing a "commentary," to use your word, can.

 

That access has a cost as well. If you report something that is against the wishes of those who provide access, that access might not be there next time. For instance, WGR wasn't exactly the Bills favorite when Dickerson was on the air.

 

Incidentally, what news was in that article? It was very interesting, but the only news I saw was that it had been 6 months since Timmy got leveled. It was not a news piece.

 

Like Larry Felser often says, "don't believe these Internet guys."

 

Since 1997, I only read him on the internet... :D

[SCSabresFan!]

That access has a cost as well. If you report something that is against the wishes of those who provide access, that access might not be there next time. For instance, WGR wasn't exactly the Bills favorite when Dickerson was on the air.

 

Exactly my point and writers are very aware of that fact.