Golisano just in it for the bottom line?

[LabattBlue]

I don't believe Golisano bought the Sabres because he believed they were a great investment that was just going to make him fistfuls of money year in/year out. I believe most NHL owners buy teams because first and foremost because they want to win championships. In the case of the NHL, small market teams like Buffalo may make or lose a few million each year in an attempt to win a Cup, but they probably know that going in. Where the investment would hopefully payoff is in the worth of the franchise and how much will it be sold for versus how much you paid for it.

 

So what's my point...Golisano losing a few million a year in operating costs as the owner of the Sabres is barely a drop in the bucket for him(see how much he pissed away in an attempt to become governor of NYS). Therefore he either wants to win a Stanley Cup or he just likes being in the limelight as an owner of a professional sports team. Which one is it Tom?

[PASabreFan]

Great question! Probably both, and more. Get your Snickers, this could take a while. When I first heard that Golisano was buying the Sabres, I was very excited. I figured with his egomania and billions of dollars, it would bode well for the Sabres being a contending team every year. That's still possible, but we've since learned they're going to run the Sabres like a business and cut coupons and take their pop cans to Tops to improve the bottom line. That tells me that although a part of the reason he bought the team certainly (IMHO) was civic-minded in nature, and he likes the attention and he probably wants to bring a championship to Buffalo, a bigger part was that as a good businessman, he saw the chance to buy something low and sell it high. But it can be sold high only if he has demonstrated the franchise is viable. The Penguins are being sold for $150 million, I believe. Golisano bought the Sabres for $90 million. It's not an exaggeration, I don't think, to say that if the NHL keeps cleaning up its act, Tom could sell the Sabres down the road and more than double his money.

[zow2]

Look, Tommy G was probably more upset and hurt than anyone when they lost game 7. Did you see the video of him up in the box? He was devastated. I'm sure this guy is used to being a winner not a loser. He buys the Sabres and boom, they go from being a doormat to the Eastern Conf finals in 2 seasons. I don't see

why anyone has to question his motives??? He is not going to break up the team to the point where they will not be competitive. He wants to win. But he has every right to not only "Not Lose" money ...he has a right to MAKE money on his investment.

If you haven't noticed lately, NHL is not about buying the best players anymore. It's about team chemistry, fitting the system, hard work, great goaltending and sheer Luck. The last 4 finals teams were Carolina, Edmonton, Tampa, Calgary. These rosters weren't shock full of high priced stars.

I am totally on board with whatever Tom, Lindy, Darcy, Larry, et al, decide to do with this team. They know what they're doing and they deserve to run it the best way to maximize profits.

[Goodfella25]

What I am confused about is why the hell can't we re-sign McKee, Grier and Teppo easily?? I want to know what the deal is...is it Golisano being unwilling to shell out the $? Is it Regeir's uncanny ability to alienate players and make them leave Buffalo, or his over-cautious, stingy way of handing negotiations? Basically I am curious to know if Golisano has given Darcy the OK to pay some of these guys to bring them back to the Sabres, of if he has told Darcy we need to trim our payroll even further.

 

And just for the record, I think Larry Quinn is an idiot.

[BetweenThePipes00]

Payroll is going to go up significantly just to resign all the guys they have ... I really hate that the perception seems to be if Golisano will not lose millions he must not want to win. Not to mention the fact that both McKee and Grier have both said their first choice is to stay and yet we are talking about "Regeir's uncanny ability to alienate players and make them leave Buffalo" ... just stop. Life is going to go on if these guys are not back and it is still going to be a very good team with a higher payroll than last season.

[Rabbit151]

I don't mind Regier's approach. I like the excitement of a big trade or signing, but his way is smart. I think he is using the Patriots model where the team comes first and no-one is bigger than the team.

 

He has to be careful with team chemistry, but losing McKee has everyone scared that the team chemistry will be destroyed. I don't agree. Darcy's real homework is in finding players who can seamlessly fit into the Sabres team, not in finding ways to give everyone a big, fat raise. A modest, reasonable and balanced raise would work just fine to keep the guys happy.

 

It could be more destructive for team chemistry to have McKee get 3 million a year, while other deserving players get bumped up only a little. At least if he goes to another team, the players on the Sabres have the chance to say,"good for Jay, he got a big pay-day. The team that got him pissed away too much salary for him...but good for Jay."

 

If he got that in Buffalo, they wouldn't say "good for Jay", they'd say "what about me?".

[PASabreFan]

PASabreFan Reality Check?

 

After going to the finals in 1999, Darcy Regier's teams have made the playoffs twice in six seasons, and one of those years, they slipped in on the final day. Under the circumstances of constantly being shortchanged, and a challenging ownership transition, he has done OK. But the record shows that if you want to be a lower tier salary team, the results are not consistently going to be good.

 

Again, my comments are moot until we know what approach the Sabres are going to take this offseason. Time will tell.

[LabattBlue]

 

And just for the record, I think Larry Quinn is an idiot.

...just for the record, I agree with you on Quinn! :)

 

Look, Tommy G was probably more upset and hurt than anyone when they lost game 7. Did you see the video of him up in the box? He was devastated. I'm sure this guy is used to being a winner not a loser. He buys the Sabres and boom, they go from being a doormat to the Eastern Conf finals in 2 seasons. I don't see

why anyone has to question his motives??? He is not going to break up the team to the point where they will not be competitive. He wants to win. But he has every right to not only "Not Lose" money ...he has a right to MAKE money on his investment.

If you haven't noticed lately, NHL is not about buying the best players anymore. It's about team chemistry, fitting the system, hard work, great goaltending and sheer Luck. The last 4 finals teams were Carolina, Edmonton, Tampa, Calgary. These rosters weren't shock full of high priced stars.

I am totally on board with whatever Tom, Lindy, Darcy, Larry, et al, decide to do with this team. They know what they're doing and they deserve to run it the best way to maximize profits.

 

I'm not saying the Sabres have to spend to the cap limit(44 mil next year), but if the philosphy is going to be "let proven UFA's walk" and then try to replace them with prospects or less experienced NHL'ers, this is as likely to miss as it is to hit. If the Sabres are going to be 10+ million under the cap every year just because Golisano doesn't want to lose money, chances are he will lose money anyways, because the Sabres playoff runs aren't automatically going to be to the conference finals each and every year, like it was this year.

[Taro T]

What I am confused about is why the hell can't we re-sign McKee, Grier and Teppo easily?? I want to know what the deal is...is it Golisano being unwilling to shell out the $? Is it Regeir's uncanny ability to alienate players and make them leave Buffalo, or his over-cautious, stingy way of handing negotiations? Basically I am curious to know if Golisano has given Darcy the OK to pay some of these guys to bring them back to the Sabres, of if he has told Darcy we need to trim our payroll even further.

 

And just for the record, I think Larry Quinn is an idiot.

There is one very good reason that the Sabres have not signed any of their UFA's to date. That reason is: UNLESS the team makes a WILDLY OUTRAGEOUS OFFER (see the McCabe signing as prime example) to get the player to sign prior to becoming an UFA, THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO THE PLAYER TO SIGN A CONTRACT PRIOR TO JULY 1!!!

 

The players in question (McKee and Grier for certain, and I thought Teppo stated it as well) have publicly stated they would like to remain Sabres. If that is true, then there is no reason to believe that the players won't at a minimum give the Sabres the opportunity to match an offer received. With that being the case, WHY WOULD THE SABRES MAKE AN EXORBITANT OFFER TODAY? IF the players are serious about wanting to stay Sabres, there is NO legitimate reason for the Sabres to make a wildly exorbitant offer today. They may have to make one on July 2, but that is not a given today.

 

IF the players are serious about wanting to stay Sabres, then the team CAN SIGN THE PLAYERS "EASILY" by matching the best tendered offer.

[X. Benedict]

 

And just for the record, I think Larry Quinn is an idiot.

 

Why do you think LQ is an idiot?

[LabattBlue]

Why do you think LQ is an idiot?

Being the "managing partner" and primarily in charge of the team, this is the guy that proposed "blue ice" and "curved goal posts" last year. In addition, he probably okayed the ridiculous jersey desgin and logo that is circulating on the internet. Also, I haven't forgotten his stunt from a couple of years ago when he inserted himself onto the Alumni team so we could be "one of the boys". Keep in mind this is a guy who went from being a construction project manager to running our hockey team.

 

That's "idiot" enough for me. <_<

[Kristian]

Being the "managing partner" and primarily in charge of the team, this is the guy that proposed "blue ice" and "curved goal posts" last year. In addition, he probably okayed the ridiculous jersey desgin and logo that is circulating on the internet. Also, I haven't forgotten his stunt from a couple of years ago when he inserted himself onto the Alumni team so we could be "one of the boys". Keep in mind this is a guy who went from being a construction project manager to running our hockey team.

 

That's "idiot" enough for me. <_<

 

Amen, never could stand his guts.

[hopeleslyobvious]

There is one very good reason that the Sabres have not signed any of their UFA's to date. That reason is: UNLESS the team makes a WILDLY OUTRAGEOUS OFFER (see the McCabe signing as prime example) to get the player to sign prior to becoming an UFA, THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO THE PLAYER TO SIGN A CONTRACT PRIOR TO JULY 1!!!

 

The players in question (McKee and Grier for certain, and I thought Teppo stated it as well) have publicly stated they would like to remain Sabres. If that is true, then there is no reason to believe that the players won't at a minimum give the Sabres the opportunity to match an offer received. With that being the case, WHY WOULD THE SABRES MAKE AN EXORBITANT OFFER TODAY? IF the players are serious about wanting to stay Sabres, there is NO legitimate reason for the Sabres to make a wildly exorbitant offer today. They may have to make one on July 2, but that is not a given today.

 

IF the players are serious about wanting to stay Sabres, then the team CAN SIGN THE PLAYERS "EASILY" by matching the best tendered offer.

 

Good points as always. But what else is there for people to doom and gloom about in the off season? I am convinced that there are certain individuals who will doom and gloom no matter what the circumstances.

[LabattBlue]

Good points as always. But what else is there for people to doom and gloom about in the off season? I am convinced that there are certain individuals who will doom and gloom no matter what the circumstances.

I just want to see this team strive for excellence every year. Not just a one year run at the cup.

[hopeleslyobvious]

I just want to see this team strive for excellence every year. Not just a one year run at the cup.

 

Me too. I don't think giving Darcy a blank check this year will turn into long term success.

[gregkash]

The man is a smart business man. It's not healthy nor viable for the sabres to spend up to the cap when they wont MAKE that money.

 

It's not good business.

 

We made 4 mil extra htis year.

 

and this year our spending goes up 5 mil.

 

Coincidence? NOT REALLY.

[apuszczalowski]

The man is a smart business man. It's not healthy nor viable for the sabres to spend up to the cap when they wont MAKE that money.

 

It's not good business.

 

We made 4 mil extra htis year.

 

and this year our spending goes up 5 mil.

 

Coincidence? NOT REALLY.

Coincidence that the league salary cap also went up 4 million?

 

So actually if you think about it, they are spending 4 million less then they should be. The teams budget should atleast be raised to reflect the increase in the salary cap (maybe not to the full 4 million, but atleast should be relative to the percentage they spend to the cap, i.e. if they spend to 3/4's of the cap, then an increase of 4 million to the cap should mean Buffalo raises there cap by a minimum of 3 million)

 

Now if they made 4 million in profit last year, that should also be added to the cap, so spending 5 million only really raised our cap 1-2 million

 

And Dave_B, to answer your question of about offers given to players before July 1st, If McKee and Grier really wanted to stay Sabres (and not just using that as a ploy to the fanbase to try to get more from the Sabres) then they would not have a problem siging a contract for a couple years at a reasonable raise to reflect their play the as a Sabre. Of course if they wait til FA starts they can get a huge offer from another team, or they could find out they think they are better then others do. As a GM you want to get players signed before they can go out and take a chance losing the player due to a team overpaying and stealing them away.

 

If Darcy gave Jay McKee a reasonable offer to stay a Sabre with a reasonable raise and for multiple years, why would he not have signed it if he wants to stay a Sabre. Its more like Darcy lowballed him trying to get him cheap since he said he wants to stay and then figures Jay won't get what he expects in FA and will come back.

 

As for TG, I can't see how buying the team was for his love of the game and the team and not a buisness, PR type move to get support from the locals for another political run. Didn't he say he did not even follow hockey much before buying them? If he was a huge fan and the reason he bought the team was because he wanted a championship, he would not run the team the way he does and would spend what it takes to get the cup. (we as fans know that if we owned the team, we would be alot different and do what it takes to win) Instead, it is budget first, success second. It is a buisness and an investment to him and he wants to make the most of his investment. I'm not saying it is wrong the way he is running the team and I think he is a great owner, but I can't see him sacrificing a profit just because he wants to win a cup and bring a championship to Buffalo

[hopeleslyobvious]

Coincidence that the league salary cap also went up 4 million?

 

So actually if you think about it, they are spending 4 million less then they should be. The teams budget should atleast be raised to reflect the increase in the salary cap (maybe not to the full 4 million, but atleast should be relative to the percentage they spend to the cap, i.e. if they spend to 3/4's of the cap, then an increase of 4 million to the cap should mean Buffalo raises there cap by a minimum of 3 million)

 

Now if they made 4 million in profit last year, that should also be added to the cap, so spending 5 million only really raised our cap 1-2 million

 

And Dave_B, to answer your question of about offers given to players before July 1st, If McKee and Grier really wanted to stay Sabres (and not just using that as a ploy to the fanbase to try to get more from the Sabres) then they would not have a problem siging a contract for a couple years at a reasonable raise to reflect their play the as a Sabre. Of course if they wait til FA starts they can get a huge offer from another team, or they could find out they think they are better then others do. As a GM you want to get players signed before they can go out and take a chance losing the player due to a team overpaying and stealing them away.

 

If Darcy gave Jay McKee a reasonable offer to stay a Sabre with a reasonable raise and for multiple years, why would he not have signed it if he wants to stay a Sabre. Its more like Darcy lowballed him trying to get him cheap since he said he wants to stay and then figures Jay won't get what he expects in FA and will come back.

 

As for TG, I can't see how buying the team was for his love of the game and the team and not a buisness, PR type move to get support from the locals for another political run. Didn't he say he did not even follow hockey much before buying them? If he was a huge fan and the reason he bought the team was because he wanted a championship, he would not run the team the way he does and would spend what it takes to get the cup. (we as fans know that if we owned the team, we would be alot different and do what it takes to win) Instead, it is budget first, success second. It is a buisness and an investment to him and he wants to make the most of his investment. I'm not saying it is wrong the way he is running the team and I think he is a great owner, but I can't see him sacrificing a profit just because he wants to win a cup and bring a championship to Buffalo

 

 

So you're proposing that they raise their budget by 8 million (spending the increase in the cap+profits), wouldn't that mean they are spending more money than they are taking in?

 

I'm sorry, but until you can give us any kind of evidence that Darcy low balled McKee or Grier, I am not going to believe it. Dave is right, it just makes sense for them to see what other offers are out there.

[Taro T]

Coincidence that the league salary cap also went up 4 million?

 

So actually if you think about it, they are spending 4 million less then they should be. The teams budget should atleast be raised to reflect the increase in the salary cap (maybe not to the full 4 million, but atleast should be relative to the percentage they spend to the cap, i.e. if they spend to 3/4's of the cap, then an increase of 4 million to the cap should mean Buffalo raises there cap by a minimum of 3 million)

 

Now if they made 4 million in profit last year, that should also be added to the cap, so spending 5 million only really raised our cap 1-2 million

 

And Dave_B, to answer your question of about offers given to players before July 1st, If McKee and Grier really wanted to stay Sabres (and not just using that as a ploy to the fanbase to try to get more from the Sabres) then they would not have a problem siging a contract for a couple years at a reasonable raise to reflect their play the as a Sabre. Of course if they wait til FA starts they can get a huge offer from another team, or they could find out they think they are better then others do. As a GM you want to get players signed before they can go out and take a chance losing the player due to a team overpaying and stealing them away.

 

If Darcy gave Jay McKee a reasonable offer to stay a Sabre with a reasonable raise and for multiple years, why would he not have signed it if he wants to stay a Sabre. Its more like Darcy lowballed him trying to get him cheap since he said he wants to stay and then figures Jay won't get what he expects in FA and will come back.

 

As for TG, I can't see how buying the team was for his love of the game and the team and not a buisness, PR type move to get support from the locals for another political run. Didn't he say he did not even follow hockey much before buying them? If he was a huge fan and the reason he bought the team was because he wanted a championship, he would not run the team the way he does and would spend what it takes to get the cup. (we as fans know that if we owned the team, we would be alot different and do what it takes to win) Instead, it is budget first, success second. It is a buisness and an investment to him and he wants to make the most of his investment. I'm not saying it is wrong the way he is running the team and I think he is a great owner, but I can't see him sacrificing a profit just because he wants to win a cup and bring a championship to Buffalo

You realize that McKee and Grier (and all other UFA's, for that matter) MAY get a "huge offer from another team". I realize that as well. If a couple of schmucks posting on an internet message board realize this, doesn't it make sense that Jay and Mike (and all other UFA's for that matter) realize this as well?

 

This very likely is Jay and Mike's ONLY chance to hit it big and set their families up for life. If the Sabres only give them a "reasonable" offer, what incentive do they have to accept it? Especially considering the fact that their agents are putting "visions of sugarplums" dancing in their eyes. Yes, they get to play with the team they want to be on (and I want them to be on as well), but is getting a chance to play for the Sabres again worth a few million $'s? Realistically, probably not.

 

Don't you think that McKee will hate himself if he signs for $6.75MM over 3 years (which is a reasonable deal) and then finds out that Willie Mitchell got $13MM over 4 years from the Wild? I know I'd be pretty ticked at my agent if I gave up several MILLION $'s to have had the priviledge of playing for the team I wanted to play for. (Especially when Jay will have the same opportunity to sign with the Sabres AFTER July 1 that he has on June 30.) I'm not saying Jay or Willie will necessarily get those offers, but I am saying UNLESS the Sabres make Jay a HUGE offer, there is NO REASON for him to sign today.

 

You are absolutely correct that a GM would want to get his player(s) signed before someone else can have a crack at them. Unfortunately, the GM does not hold the leverage in this situation. The player holds it, and it will cost substantial $'s to get him to give up the leverage. A player would have to have the mental capacity to make Jessica Simpson to look like a neurosurgeon in order to give up his leverage for a "reasonable" offer.

 

The player has nothing to lose by finding out what his value is on the open market. Darcy is not going to say "well, we were offering you $2.25MM/year for 3 years, but the best offer anyone else gave you was $2MM/year for 2 years, so we're dropping the offer to $2MM/year for 3".

 

As much as we want to see Jay and Mike (and Teppo and Janik as well) wearing Shatanic Goatheads or Big Hair '80's Skunk Mullets or whatever, it doesn't change the fact that this game IS a business and it would be extremely foolish for either player to not treat it as such. Will sentiment come into play? Hopefully. I could see either player possibly forsaking a couple hundred grand for sentiment, but not millions. We also could see the Sabres end up willing to fork over a couple hundred grand more to keep a player that fits very well in the system and with the team's "chemistry". I don't see the Sabres willing to forsake a couple of million to maintain "chemistry" and honestly wouldn't want them to.

[apuszczalowski]

So then why does any player sign before they can test the market, even if there original team offered them a huge amount? Maybe some other team would offer them even more? why would they not test that out?

 

Maybe its because players would rather stay on a team they have been with for the past few years so they don't have to , buy a new house, move to a new area, not have to uproute there entire family to make a few million more. Maybe they just like the team they are on cause there team showed them loyalty and offered them something that is reasonable to them and they can live comfortably on for the rest of their lives.

 

If you want proof the Sabres low balled him, the toronto Sun is saying that the Sabres offered him a multi year deal worth 2 mil a season. Way to treat a guy that played with heart and put his body on the line for the team, I'm sure Darcy will find someone else to replace him that will play for way less and be just as good.

[Taro T]

So then why does any player sign before they can test the market, even if there original team offered them a huge amount? Maybe some other team would offer them even more? why would they not test that out?

 

Maybe its because players would rather stay on a team they have been with for the past few years so they don't have to , buy a new house, move to a new area, not have to uproute there entire family to make a few million more. Maybe they just like the team they are on cause there team showed them loyalty and offered them something that is reasonable to them and they can live comfortably on for the rest of their lives.

 

If you want proof the Sabres low balled him, the toronto Sun is saying that the Sabres offered him a multi year deal worth 2 mil a season. Way to treat a guy that played with heart and put his body on the line for the team, I'm sure Darcy will find someone else to replace him that will play for way less and be just as good.

Why? Because a team isn't going to make an outrageously high offer and let it stay on the table past June 30. When the Leafs offered McCabe a bazillion $'s for 5 years, do you think they said he could wait until after seeing what other people would pay him and then decide if he would take the offer? It doesn't work that way.

 

By making an outrageously high offer, the team is offering the player something to give up his right to see what other teams will pay him. They don't let the player get outrageous money from THEM AND let him see if somebody else will make an outrageous offer.

 

The reality is, the Sabres will not make the outrageous offer for their 3rd or 4th defenseman. Not when the entire rest of the D-squad need to be re-signed as well. If Jay is signed for $3MM/year, the total payroll for just the D-men will end up somewhere around $16MM. Even if the Sabres were going to go to the salary cap, that would leave $28MM to pay for 12 skaters and 2 goalies. The Sabres are going to be about $10MM shy of $44MM, so that leaves $18MM for 12 skaters and 2 goalies and 1 skater is already locked in at ~$3MM. That gives $15MM for 11 skaters and 2 goalies. How do you field a competitive team on that?

 

As I've stated in other threads, if Jay walks for $2.25MM/year, then shame on Darcy and shame on the Sabres. If he walks for $3MM+, it then becomes painful, but it is hard to pay a guy that could actually be your #5 guy (if Kalinin returns to pre-broken ankle vs. Ottawa form and Teppo stays and comes back to form) 1/12 of your entire payroll. If he gets an offer for $3.5MM+, then more power to him.

[PASabreFan]

Dave, clearly you don't subscribe to my "go to Hell and/or Sweden" theory regarding a hardball stance with Tallinder. Do you believe he would have a case for getting "McKee money" -- that is, about $3 million a year? I sure don't think so, but maybe I am weighing McKee's longevity and intangibles too much.

[apuszczalowski]

Tallinder - RFA with one good year as a Sabre under his belt

 

McKee - UFA veteran with years of experience playing for the sabres and is a team leader in the locker room

 

How does Tallinder and his Agent have grounds to demand McKee money right now?

[LabattBlue]

Tallinder - RFA with one good year as a Sabre under his belt

 

McKee - UFA veteran with years of experience playing for the sabres and is a team leader in the locker room

 

How does Tallinder and his Agent have grounds to demand McKee money right now?

Don't discount what Tallinder brings to tha table. He is very good defensively(not a shot blocker like McKee, but good defensively none the less) and at carrying the puck and making the initial pass out of his own end. Is he worth more than 3+ per year? No, but I'd try to get him to sign a 3 year deal worth 2-2.5 per year.

[Taro T]

Dave, clearly you don't subscribe to my "go to Hell and/or Sweden" theory regarding a hardball stance with Tallinder. Do you believe he would have a case for getting "McKee money" -- that is, about $3 million a year? I sure don't think so, but maybe I am weighing McKee's longevity and intangibles too much.

Unfortunately, Tallinder (and pretty much all the other RFA D-men) are arbitration eligible. If the Sabres gave the #4 D-man on the team (yes, I realize he has longevity w/ the Sabres, brings many intangibles, and was at the top of the league in shot blocking) a $3MM+ salary, don't you think the other guys would go to arbitration and say we have more ice time than Jay, more points, are younger, were as durable (or better), and in the case of Henrik and Toni played against better opponents than Jay, so we deserve at least as much money if not more than Jay.

 

Those guys wouldn't have to bring players from other teams into the mix, they'd be able to make a case right on their own team.

 

Would an arbitrator in the "new NHL" buy their arguments? Would the arbitrator buy Buffalo's arguments that the reason Jay got the big payday was a reward for longevity and intangibles moreso than his traditional stats? I don't know for certain, but one definitely would have sided with the players over Darcy in the "old" NHL. I certainly wouldn't want my wallet held hostage to that possibility.