UPL 🗑️ Thread

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, LTS said:

He can be traded, but I am sure they are trying to get more than future considerations or a 7th round pick in 2028 for him.  Is he worth more than that?  Not to me.

UPL doesn't improve Buffalo or have the potential to improve Buffalo in the future. Having him on the roster is pointless. If the Sabres had a run on goalie injuries they could sign anyone or bring in anyone and I would have just as much confidence in them as I do UPL and frankly I think the outcome would be the same either way. He's Just Another Goalie.

Well I'd trade him for anything/nothing just to get rid of the contract but I don't think it's that easy. Name me the teams who would want to add that contract for an AHL level goalie? I see nobody goalie desperate so you'd need to add to get them to take the contract. Just send him to Rochester and if somebody claims him all the better. 

[LTS]

21 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

If I’m the opposition GM I’m not sending Adams anything. This is cap unloading. Adams is the one who has to sweeten the deal. 

Example: the Leafs had Marleau under contract and needed space for Marner. They sent Marleau + 7th and a conditional 1st to Carolina. That was for only one season of Marleau’s cap hit.

(That 1st became Jarvis.)

What are you requiring from Adams to take 4.75 for this year and 3 more seasons? For an AHL goalie / buyout / trade for nothing with future retention?

I want a lottery-protected 1st.

I get your point... and I will address below.  However, UPL is not Marleau and would never command a 1st round pick.

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well I'd trade him for anything/nothing just to get rid of the contract but I don't think it's that easy. Name me the teams who would want to add that contract for an AHL level goalie? I see nobody goalie desperate so you'd need to add to get them to take the contract. Just send him to Rochester and if somebody claims him all the better. 

Naturally I cannot name the teams who would add that contract. 

But let's look at the threads about the players the Sabres have traded away who have become successful. We all talk about it on here and yet when we talk about trading someone like UPL people flip to the opposite argument. He's useless, why would anyone want him?

Well, the answers lie in looking at other former Sabres having success and GMs believing (and players saying it, etc.) that the Buffalo Sabres organization is trash even at the levels we, as fans, don't see. It's easy to believe there's a chance that some GM who needs a goalie is willing to take the chance because:

1. Goalies are quite unpredictable. A lot depends on what is in front of them, the goalie coaching, etc.

2. Buffalo is seen as a place that destroys players.

I would also be fine sending him to Rochester.  Then again, any team who acquired him could do that as long as they are good paying him for AHL time. There is always the "refusal to report" option as well.

[mjd1001]

I found this interesting...

On the national hockey show on 590 out of Toronto, they just spent a lot of time talking about Edmonton's goaltending problem. 

One of the hosts just brought up...what if Edmonton were to go after UPL out of Buffalo... 

The other host said he can't see Buffalo doing that... Because his understanding is when UPL is healthy... That's Buffalo's guy. The problem is he just can't stay healthy. 

They kept on saying he was a 'good player' and a 'good goalie' and that it wouldn't make sense for Buffalo to trade him.

Anyway, I don't know how plugged they are into what's going on with theSabres, but both of them seem to think that Buffalo is still 100% behind UPL and would not want to trade him.

Edited yesterday at 07:13 PM by mjd1001

[SHAAAUGHT!!!]

Play him and hope he looks better game over game, trade him and his full salary to whoever will take him, run Ellis and Lyon for the rest of this year, keep one for next year and have them split time with Levi next season.  

I still think UPL is a starter in this league, but I'd rather use that AAV hit towards a top 6 forward due to the inconsitency issues with his health and play coupled with fact we have solid alternatives on the roster now. Lyon, Ellis, and Levi are going to be cheap through next season and that will get us through the bid AAV hits from the Skinner buyout.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, LTS said:

I get your point... and I will address below.  However, UPL is not Marleau and would never command a 1st round pick.

Naturally I cannot name the teams who would add that contract. 

But let's look at the threads about the players the Sabres have traded away who have become successful. We all talk about it on here and yet when we talk about trading someone like UPL people flip to the opposite argument. He's useless, why would anyone want him?

Well, the answers lie in looking at other former Sabres having success and GMs believing (and players saying it, etc.) that the Buffalo Sabres organization is trash even at the levels we, as fans, don't see. It's easy to believe there's a chance that some GM who needs a goalie is willing to take the chance because:

1. Goalies are quite unpredictable. A lot depends on what is in front of them, the goalie coaching, etc.

2. Buffalo is seen as a place that destroys players.

I would also be fine sending him to Rochester.  Then again, any team who acquired him could do that as long as they are good paying him for AHL time. There is always the "refusal to report" option as well.

It wouldn't be the first (or last) time a former starting goalie has been sent down. So it's still simple to me and it's correct by the other goalies and how you treat them. You call every GM and see if they are interested. If there's any sort of trade available you make it. If there isn't, you send him down and if another GM claims him you file that GM name under snake in your contact list and you move on. Levi still gets most of the starts down there because he is your top prospect and you tell him that. You tell him you see the future as him and Ellis. That's it, it's over. 

One thing I no longer care about is how good players do away from Buffalo. It'll happen and it'll happen a lot. WGAF. The only thing that matters here is Sabres wins and losses and that should be the mantra. If you aren't winning it's just not good enough and you need to make changes. 

[Taro T]

3 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I found this interesting...

On the national hockey show on 590 out of Toronto, they just spent a lot of time talking about Edmonton's goaltending problem. 

One of the hosts just brought up...what if Edmonton were to go after UPL out of Buffalo... 

The other host said he can't see Buffalo doing that... Because his understanding is when UPL is healthy... That's Buffalo's guy. The problem is he just can't stay healthy. 

They kept on saying he was a 'good player' and a 'good goalie' and that it wouldn't make sense for Buffalo to trade him.

Anyway, I don't know how plugged they are into what's going on with theSabres, but both of them seem to think that Buffalo is still 100% behind UPL and would not want to trade him.

Again, personally expect UPL would garner more interest and a better return than people here expect.  He's huge, he's played well for a couple month stretch in the Sabres best season in the last decade and a half, and there has to be at least 1 GM / coach combo that expects THEY can wash that "same old Sabre stench" off of him.

Simply don't see him getting right here.  (Doubt he gets fully "right" anywhere; but it's not like it CAN'T happen in the right situation.)  Lehner played a lot better when he got out of Buffalo too; at least until his demons got the better of him.  That's probably in the back of the mind of a few GMs as well.  So, if the Sabres and UPL both need a change, make it happen.

But, not in a rush to see it happen because personally would like somebody other than Adams working the phones to optimize the return.

Edited yesterday at 10:16 PM by Taro T

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Again, personally expect UPL would garner more interest and a better return than people here expect.  He's huge, he's played well for a couple month stretch in the Sabres best season in the last decade and a half, and there has to be at least 1 GM / coach combo that expects THEY can wash that "same old Sabre stench" off of him.

Simply don't see him getting right here.  (Doubt he gets fully "right" anywhere; but it's not like it CAN'T happen in the right situation.)  Lehner played a lot better when he got out of Buffalo too; at least until his demons got the better of him.  That's probably in the back of the mind of a few GMs as well.  So, if the Sabres and UPL both need a change, make it happen.

But, not in a rush to see it happen because personally would like somebody other than Adams working the phones to optimize the return.

Lehner got a bad rep from Buffalo, but he played a LOT better here than people remember:

-6 shutouts in 3 seasons

-Save percentages of:  .924, .920, .908, and GAAs of 2.47, 2.68, and 3.01

Even with his issues, I was sad to see him go, I thought, even in Buffalo, he was a really good goalie here.

[LTS]

20 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It wouldn't be the first (or last) time a former starting goalie has been sent down. So it's still simple to me and it's correct by the other goalies and how you treat them. You call every GM and see if they are interested. If there's any sort of trade available you make it. If there isn't, you send him down and if another GM claims him you file that GM name under snake in your contact list and you move on. Levi still gets most of the starts down there because he is your top prospect and you tell him that. You tell him you see the future as him and Ellis. That's it, it's over. 

One thing I no longer care about is how good players do away from Buffalo. It'll happen and it'll happen a lot. WGAF. The only thing that matters here is Sabres wins and losses and that should be the mantra. If you aren't winning it's just not good enough and you need to make changes. 

I also don't care. But when people talk about a player on the Sabres not having value in the league it needs to be viewed with the lens that the league uses. It's Buffalo that's largely the problem, not the player.

[Archie Lee]

19 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Lehner got a bad rep from Buffalo, but he played a LOT better here than people remember:

-6 shutouts in 3 seasons

-Save percentages of:  .924, .920, .908, and GAAs of 2.47, 2.68, and 3.01

Even with his issues, I was sad to see him go, I thought, even in Buffalo, he was a really good goalie here.

Lehner out-performed the league average in save %, by around .0075 in his first two seasons.  In the 3rd season when he was at .908, league average was .912.  That was year one of Housley and the season that caused O'Reilly to lose his love of the game, so I'll cut Lehner some slack.

UPL's good season was similar to Lehner's two good years.  In 23-24 UPL outplayed the league average save % by .007 (.910 to .0903). 

I'm beginning to lose patience with UPL. It doesn't surprise me though that Adams, who has struggled to nail down goaltending over now 6 seasons, and who is so indecisive that he has 7 goalies in the system who are playing pro-hockey in North America with 6 of them being under contract beyond this season, is not anxious to move on from the goalie he gave a big contract to. Something needs to give though. Ratzlaff and Leinonen need playing time and would both ideally be in the AHL next season.  

Frankly, the goaltending situation is a microcosm of the larger roster.  I was looking at PuckPedia earlier today and I defy anyone to look at the players we hold the rights to beyond this season (under contract or pending RFA) and try to sort out what might even resemble an actual plan.  Ray Ferrero still said it best a year or so ago (not quite a direct quote at this point): The Sabres are just a collection of stuff.

 

 

[Drag0nDan]

23 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

I found this interesting...

On the national hockey show on 590 out of Toronto, they just spent a lot of time talking about Edmonton's goaltending problem. 

One of the hosts just brought up...what if Edmonton were to go after UPL out of Buffalo... 

The other host said he can't see Buffalo doing that... Because his understanding is when UPL is healthy... That's Buffalo's guy. The problem is he just can't stay healthy. 

They kept on saying he was a 'good player' and a 'good goalie' and that it wouldn't make sense for Buffalo to trade him.

Anyway, I don't know how plugged they are into what's going on with theSabres, but both of them seem to think that Buffalo is still 100% behind UPL and would not want to trade him.

Gotta love talking heads talking about a player they've clearly never seen play.  

[Archie Lee]

On a somewhat related note, the league average save % so far this season is .896.  The Sabres goalies are at .908, so they are greatly outperforming league average (thanks mostly to Lyon). Despite this, the Sabres are currently playing to a 76 point pace and are last in the East.  The Bruins are 10-7 with a team save % of .893. So, go figure.

Also, since Lindy Ruff left Buffalo, in his 9 seasons as a head coach prior to this year, his goalies out-performed league average in save % on only one occasion, that was 22/23 when the Devils had a great year and Ruff was a coach of the year nominee.  They under-performed league average in all other years, most of them dramatically; his teams have been bottom 3 league-wide in 5 of those 8 seasons.  This perhaps is meaningless. But, I would probably bet on our goaltending performance getting worse as this season continues, which is a bit frightening considering where we already are in the standings.   

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Archie Lee

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LTS said:

I also don't care. But when people talk about a player on the Sabres not having value in the league it needs to be viewed with the lens that the league uses. It's Buffalo that's largely the problem, not the player.

It's always been about the roster construction. The lack of veteran leaders, the unbalanced team dynamic. They are always trying to fill holes they create themselves. Jarmo is the first NHL experienced hire they have made in the Pegula era. Ruff was the first experienced coach but he's a has been. Rookie GMs, rookie coaches, crazy hires of motivational speakers, cobbled together after thought goaltending. The franchise vision is ridiculous and as such the culture never builds. It's just a little up and back to the bottom (insert this year's excuses) and then do it all over again. Players get worse here. Rookies hit walls. Sometimes they leave and other teams/cultures fix them. Sometimes not. It's NOT the players, it's the Sabres organization. 

[Taro T]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's always been about the roster construction. The lack of veteran leaders, the unbalanced team dynamic. They are always trying to fill holes they create themselves. Jarmo is the first NHL experienced hire they have made in the Pegula era. Ruff was the first experienced coach but he's a has been. Rookie GMs, rookie coaches, crazy hires of motivational speakers, cobbled together after thought goaltending. The franchise vision is ridiculous and as such the culture never builds. It's just a little up and back to the bottom (insert this year's excuses) and then do it all over again. Players get worse here. Rookies hit walls. Sometimes they leave and other teams/cultures fix them. Sometimes not. It's NOT the players, it's the Sabres organization. 

Actually, Ruff was the 3rd experienced coach hired in the Pegula era.  Goober had won a SC in Pittsburgh and Ted Nolan had coached in a couple of different NHL cities.

3 experienced and 3 inexperienced.  (Kreuger's partial season before leaving for Europe and hockey tournaments and pro soccer leaves him in the "inexperienced" category IMHO.)

3 inexperienced GMs with 0 experienced GMs brought into that role, though at least 2 experienced "advisors."  Patrick and Kekalainen.

[PerreaultForever]

47 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Actually, Ruff was the 3rd experienced coach hired in the Pegula era.  Goober had won a SC in Pittsburgh and Ted Nolan had coached in a couple of different NHL cities.

3 experienced and 3 inexperienced.  (Kreuger's partial season before leaving for Europe and hockey tournaments and pro soccer leaves him in the "inexperienced" category IMHO.)

3 inexperienced GMs with 0 experienced GMs brought into that role, though at least 2 experienced "advisors."  Patrick and Kekalainen.

Nolan had never been a head coach but I don't count that debacle. They screwed Nolan over badly. Best forgotten, the whole Nolan saga. Kreuger I do not count as experienced either. That was a complete joke. You want technical definitions ya, I guess they were experienced, but not really. 

Disco Dan, ya, the whole we didn't hire the guy who played us to go to Toronto thing so we took the guy who rode Crosby's coat tails. Fair enough, ya, he was experienced. 

All 3 GMs have made horrific mistakes. The details don't really matter. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Nolan had never been a head coach but I don't count that debacle. They screwed Nolan over badly. Best forgotten, the whole Nolan saga. Kreuger I do not count as experienced either. That was a complete joke. You want technical definitions ya, I guess they were experienced, but not really. 

Disco Dan, ya, the whole we didn't hire the guy who played us to go to Toronto thing so we took the guy who rode Crosby's coat tails. Fair enough, ya, he was experienced. 

All 3 GMs have made horrific mistakes. The details don't really matter. 

Wtf are you talking about.  Nolan coached the Sabres when Muckler was the GM.  

He then a few years after declining the 1 year offer Regier gave him to continue to coach, moved on to the Aisles.

Nolan took over again with the Sabres after Rolston got canned.