GDT / Islanders @ Sabres, Thurs 3/14, 7pm MSG, ESPN+ & WGR Radio

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, SabresVet said:

I see Levi getting NHL PT right out of college because someone saw Reinhart excel in Florida and they looked bad in that deal.  At least in the short-term. 

I think the whole Levi thing is that they told him if he signed he would get a shot in the NHL right off the bat.  If you recall, he was finishing his junior year and if he went back for his senior year he would have been able to sign as a free agent after graduating.  In order to keep him in the fold, they wanted to make sure he signed.  When he came up last season he was 5-2 and looked pretty good.  Coming into this season I think the brain trust felt it was worth a shot, and in the spirit of what they told Levi, to keep him on the NHL roster out of camp.  When his numbers this season didn't look great and the rest of the goalie saga played out (injuries, etc.), they sent him down to get work.

It was not certain, going into this season, what his performance would be, after his strong audition last season... and they wanted to make sure they kept him in the organization.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Good win for the Buffalo Sabres but the problem is the Sabres have played more games than the two teams ahead of us. We have to hope the Detroit Red Wings and New York Islanders get no points. It’s disappointing because the Sabres could potentially miss the playoffs by a point again. And the Sabres still didn’t learn a lesson from last season that you can’t take off the first half of the NHL season which is disappointing as a Sabres fan in my opinion. Go Sabres! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Edited March 15 by Buffalo Super Fan

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, LETSTUCHINGO said:

Neither was Mitts until he was! Just sayin........

I don't have the patience to keep waiting and waiting and the next one and the next year. I want to make the leap NOW. 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, #freejame said:

Reading this board lately I am very much looking forward to seeing how the goalposts move come the end of the regular season. 

It’s already stated 

[Claude Balls]

15 hours ago, RochesterExpat said:

I found it funny. We’re all experts here.

Personally, I’m such an expert I’m still patiently waiting for Asplund to win a Selke as I predicted two(?) years ago.

It's coming, don't worry

[JohnC]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Once we lost Ulmark, I was firmly on the camp of bringing in a NHL starting goalie to help the team compete while UPL stayed in Rochester and Levi was in NCAA.  Nothing that happened makes that strategy wrong.  Adam’s started talking about blockers about the time Ulmark left   

IMHO - Tokarski, Dell, Comrie and a very aged Anderson was not adequate GM work by Adams, especially given his asset stockpile and his cap situation.   

 Everyone in the NHL circles raised eyebrows at the process Adams took.  He was subtly criticized on ESPN and TNT.  Even Kevin Weekes made comments this season and did an eye roll on the Sabres goaltending situation prior to January.   The ESPN panel questioned this in between periods. 

Adams can get credit for developing UPL. He can equally get blame for missing playoff last year, and probably this year.  This team was better than were they finished in each of these seasons. 
 

If I had to do this again, I would still start by bringing in a goalie that can help your core players compete and buy time to bring up your goalie prospects from the lower leagues until they are ready 

This season a vet and UPL was the logical way to go.  Levi was promised something I hear.  We have to get past that.  Once this team stops sucking they will have leverage when dealing with 20 year old prospects.  Comrie was promised another look too.   
 

A vet and UPL could have done the job and kept us in the race all season.  UPL would have probably emerged either way.  
 

Congrats to Adams for developing UPL.   Now, moving forward, he MUST make the moves to get us out of hockey hell.  

In my original post, I said that there was a faction of posters who not too long age wanted to dispatch UPL. That is true. There was also a faction that quickly determined Power to be not worth his draft status and keeping. That is true. Are you going to disagree that there wasn't a clarion call from a number of posters who declared Mitts to be a bust? That is true. It wasn't too long ago that Cozens was also targeted of being a minor bust. That is also true. The same premature judgments applied to Bryson and Joki. My underlying point is that too often there is a premature judgment on young players. That was my basic point. 

With respect to not adequately acquiring a veteran goalie to become our starter, which goalies are you identifying who were available? There is no question that UPL is playing at a high level. But there are some underlying reasons beyond his individual performances that have allowed him to recently shine. The first reason is that our defensive unit has been bolstered with additions (Clifton) and now Byram. And credit should also be given to young players such as Power, Joki, Ryan Johnson. Bryson etc. who got better. In addition, our forwards are in general playing better defensively. 

If you want to talk about the preceding years, then go ahead. But this year, we started off with three goalies vying for playing time and roles. It took some time to shake out, but in the end UPL earned his #1 role. Prior to the season based on last year's end of season performance there was an expectation (by me) that Levi was going to win the starting job. He simply wasn't ready. I'm sure you disagree but in the end the approach that KA took worked out. 

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

In my original post, I said that there was a faction of posters who not too long age wanted to dispatch UPL. That is true. There was also a faction that quickly determined Power to be not worth his draft status and keeping. That is true. Are you going to disagree that there wasn't a clarion call from a number of posters who declared Mitts to be a bust? That is true. It wasn't too long ago that Cozens was also targeted of being a minor bust. That is also true. The same premature judgments applied to Bryson and Joki. My underlying point is that too often there is a premature judgment on young players. That was my basic point. 

With respect to not adequately acquiring a veteran goalie to become our starter, which goalies are you identifying who were available? There is no question that UPL is playing at a high level. But there are some underlying reasons beyond his individual performances that have allowed him to recently shine. The first reason is that our defensive unit has been bolstered with additions (Clifton) and now Byram. And credit should also be given to young players such as Power, Joki, Ryan Johnson. Bryson etc. who got better. In addition, our forwards are in general playing better defensively. 

If you want to talk about the preceding years, then go ahead. But this year, we started off with three goalies vying for playing time and roles. It took some time to shake out, but in the end UPL earned his #1 role. Prior to the season based on last year's end of season performance there was an expectation (by me) that Levi was going to win the starting job. He simply wasn't ready. I'm sure you disagree but in the end the approach that KA took worked out. 

Yup, I agree there were posters who lost patience with all the players you mention, and more.  I’m still not a fan of of Bryson, and I’m only Luke warm on Joki -mostly because he is very similar to what we have.   

There are many posts covering which goalies were available and when.  I’m too lazy to look.  There are also posts stating Adams tried but could not get some of them.  I stand by my position that goaltending has been mishandled and now, Im happy that UPL is working out.  Good fortune had to happen at some time.  I’m not gonna spend time looking back.  

The next step is improving the forwards lines, adding more diverse playing styles and skills, and making the playoffs.  That is what I will focus on.  That, and cap a management, and improving the coaching staff.  

[bg17]

3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't have the patience to keep waiting and waiting and the next one and the next year. I want to make the leap NOW. 

At least you have the Bruins. 

[JohninMinn.]

4 hours ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

Good win for the Buffalo Sabres but the problem is the Sabres have played more games than the two teams ahead of us. We have to hope the Detroit Red Wings and New York Islanders get no points. It’s disappointing because the Sabres could potentially miss the playoffs by a point again. And the Sabres still didn’t learn a lesson from last season that you can’t take off the first half of the NHL season which is disappointing as a Sabres fan in my opinion. Go Sabres! Let’s Go Buffalo 

They weren't as good early. Took time to gel and for their goalie to hatch.

[Big Guava]

21 hours ago, HumanSlinky39 said:

Five shutouts for Upie! Cannot overstate how huge his development has been. He's developed into a goalie that can legit steal a game for you.

And the defense has developed along with him allowing the 6th fewest shots in the NHL per game and one of best teams and not giving the puck away in their own end to boot.

There are entire periods where the other team doesn't even have a good shot on goal now, which were happening multiple times a period much of the beginning part of the season and last year.

They are growing by leaps and bounds defensively this year. If that can carryover and they can put both pieces together next year this team could be very dangerous.

Edited March 15 by Big Guava

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, bg17 said:

At least you have the Bruins. 

That's kept me going through the lean years. I thought it would flip by now but not yet. It takes a huge level of incompetence to stay this bad this long. 

[JohnC]

16 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Yup, I agree there were posters who lost patience with all the players you mention, and more.  I’m still not a fan of of Bryson, and I’m only Luke warm on Joki -mostly because he is very similar to what we have.   

There are many posts covering which goalies were available and when.  I’m too lazy to look.  There are also posts stating Adams tried but could not get some of them.  I stand by my position that goaltending has been mishandled and now, Im happy that UPL is working out.  Good fortune had to happen at some time.  I’m not gonna spend time looking back.  

The next step is improving the forwards lines, adding more diverse playing styles and skills, and making the playoffs.  That is what I will focus on.  That, and cap a management, and improving the coaching staff.  

Let me make some comments on the two defensemen that have been mentioned. I put Bryson in the category of being a utility player. He's a tweener NHL/AHL. At best, he's a third pairing and lower player. I'm not going to overrate his game paired with Clifton, he is not a liability. What's happening in general is that there is enough talent on the team and in the system where players are being slotted to their talent level. That wasn't the case in prior years. Bryson is a depth player who when brought up functioned adequately. 

With respect to Joki, and as well to Power, their play is downgraded by many because they don't play a banging style of game. Joki can skate and move the puck up the ice. He's also more willing to be involved on offense. He's not going to knock people down when they are hovering around our net. That's not his game, and never will be. Too many people focus on his limitations rather than on his assets (not saying you). In general, the era of guerrilla defenders who are inclined to fight is over with. Some people have difficulty altering their preferred profile on players and positions (again, not saying you) to the newer/different style of play. 

With respect to my assessment of Power, he is going to be a gem and a core player for us for a long time. In the not-too-distant future he is going to be a top tier blue liner who will be coveted by many teams. Based on his play this year, I can already see him expanding his game and becoming much more confident and adventurous in his play. 

[Pimlach]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Let me make some comments on the two defensemen that have been mentioned. I put Bryson in the category of being a utility player. He's a tweener NHL/AHL. At best, he's a third pairing and lower player. I'm not going to overrate his game paired with Clifton, he is not a liability. What's happening in general is that there is enough talent on the team and in the system where players are being slotted to their talent level. That wasn't the case in prior years. Bryson is a depth player who when brought up functioned adequately. 

With respect to Joki, and as well to Power, their play is downgraded by many because they don't play a banging style of game. Joki can skate and move the puck up the ice. He's also more willing to be involved on offense. He's not going to knock people down when they are hovering around our net. That's not his game, and never will be. Too many people focus on his limitations rather than on his assets (not saying you). In general, the era of guerrilla defenders who are inclined to fight is over with. Some people have difficulty altering their preferred profile on players and positions (again, not saying you) to the newer/different style of play. 

With respect to my assessment of Power, he is going to be a gem and a core player for us for a long time. In the not-too-distant future he is going to be a top tier blue liner who will be coveted by many teams. Based on his play this year, I can already see him expanding his game and becoming much more confident and adventurous in his play. 

My thought with Joki is that he is a good player, but very similar to the others.  I would like one of the 6 to inflict a little fear into opposing forwards.  Diversity of skills are good.  Give me one big tough guy back there. 

[JohnC]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

My thought with Joki is that he is a good player, but very similar to the others.  I would like one of the 6 to inflict a little fear into opposing forwards.  Diversity of skills are good.  Give me one big tough guy back there. 

We are riding in different buses to the same destination. This organization has made a lot of trades over the past half dozen year. I consider the Nylander for Joki deal to be one of our better deals. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, JohnC said:

We are riding in different buses to the same destination. This organization has made a lot of trades over the past half dozen year. I consider the Nylander for Joki deal to be one of our better deals. 

It was a fine deal as Nylander was basically on a VO level at his best moments and definitely a draft mistake but I would be happy if we flipped him this summer and brought in a solid defensive defender. Big and tough. 

I can see Byram/Dahlin, and then Samuelsson/Clifton but Power/Joker is flawed imo unless Power gets more physical and becomes more of a Pieterangelo type. As is I'd rather have a big defender paired with him and Joker could be part of a trade for that (unless they want to ditch Samuelsson because he's made of glass).

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It was a fine deal as Nylander was basically on a VO level at his best moments and definitely a draft mistake but I would be happy if we flipped him this summer and brought in a solid defensive defender. Big and tough. 

I can see Byram/Dahlin, and then Samuelsson/Clifton but Power/Joker is flawed imo unless Power gets more physical and becomes more of a Pieterangelo type. As is I'd rather have a big defender paired with him and Joker could be part of a trade for that (unless they want to ditch Samuelsson because he's made of glass).

This is good since we have Ryan Johnson too and I like have to 7 or 8 good defenders but as it stands right now we lack the big tough one and I see that as a hole.  Especially for playoff style hockey, which starts in February.   

Edited March 17 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It was a fine deal as Nylander was basically on a VO level at his best moments and definitely a draft mistake but I would be happy if we flipped him this summer and brought in a solid defensive defender. Big and tough. 

I can see Byram/Dahlin, and then Samuelsson/Clifton but Power/Joker is flawed imo unless Power gets more physical and becomes more of a Pieterangelo type. As is I'd rather have a big defender paired with him and Joker could be part of a trade for that (unless they want to ditch Samuelsson because he's made of glass).

 

18 hours ago, Pimlach said:

This is good since we have Ryan Johnson too and I like have to 7 or 8 good defenders but as it stands right now we lack the big tough one and I see that as a hole.  Especially for playoff style hockey, which starts in February.   

We can disagree on what would make the best combinations on the blueline. But that discussion is made possible because in comparison to a few years ago, there is now enough accumulated talent where you can trade a player in order to add another player to better round out this roster. 

Mitts was a good player who had value. He was dealt for a top pairing defender. We gave up value to acquire value. We're allowed to have this discussion because we have a supply of assets to parlay with. Not long ago, that wasn't the case because of a dearth of talent. Injuries would result in a cascading effect where players would then be playing higher roles that they were capable of handling. Injuries can now be handled without having such damaging effects. 

Not to belabor the point, but I'm confident that Power is going to be a stud player for us. In the near future, he's going to viewed as a top-tier defenseman in the league. He's not a banger, and never will be. Don't let it cloud the fact that is going to be really good. 

[Pimlach]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

 

We can disagree on what would make the best combinations on the blueline. But that discussion is made possible because in comparison to a few years ago, there is now enough accumulated talent where you can trade a player in order to add another player to better round out this roster. 

Mitts was a good player who had value. He was dealt for a top pairing defender. We gave up value to acquire value. We're allowed to have this discussion because we have a supply of assets to parlay with. Not long ago, that wasn't the case because of a dearth of talent. Injuries would result in a cascading effect where players would then be playing higher roles that they were capable of handling. Injuries can now be handled without having such damaging effects. 

Not to belabor the point, but I'm confident that Power is going to be a stud player for us. In the near future, he's going to viewed as a top-tier defenseman in the league. He's not a banger, and never will be. Don't let it cloud the fact that is going to be really good. 

No doubt the defense is better than last year and the year prior.  I expected a big improvement considering how bad it once was.  

One nice result of adding Byram is that he pushes 3 other guys down.  

Next step is a big body, a tough stay at home top 4 guy.   A guy that will clear the front of the net and make people pay for touching our goalie.  Get that guy and watch Power flourish.  Because Power is not a physical player, and Byram is not that guy, and Dahlin should not have to be that guy, we need  the #4 defenseman to be that guy.  Did you see Detroit getting chippy with UPL?  When this team gets better this will happen even more if they don’t address it.  

Get that kind of guy at D4, and now look at 5,6,7,8  - pick from Samuelsson, Clifton, Johnson, Joker, and Bryson.   Good teams have depth.  

I know it’s not easy to find these players, especially for a perennial bottom feeder, but that is what Adams is paid to do.  

So yes, the defense is better.  But it’s not there yet, there are too many players that have the same skill set.   We are missing a key ingredient.  

The Sabres are 3 or 4 players away from being a very good team.   I don’t think we have to wait for all these prospects to develop to get there. Adam’s 5th off season is coming.  For most teams his time would be up.  Considering where Buffalo was when he got there he gets another year.  

[SwampD]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

 

We can disagree on what would make the best combinations on the blueline. But that discussion is made possible because in comparison to a few years ago, there is now enough accumulated talent where you can trade a player in order to add another player to better round out this roster. 

Mitts was a good player who had value. He was dealt for a top pairing defender. We gave up value to acquire value. We're allowed to have this discussion because we have a supply of assets to parlay with. Not long ago, that wasn't the case because of a dearth of talent. Injuries would result in a cascading effect where players would then be playing higher roles that they were capable of handling. Injuries can now be handled without having such damaging effects. 

Not to belabor the point, but I'm confident that Power is going to be a stud player for us. In the near future, he's going to viewed as a top-tier defenseman in the league. He's not a banger, and never will be. Don't let it cloud the fact that is going to be really good. 

Is BB-4 a top pairing defenseman? I mean, on a team that actually makes the playoffs?

[Pimlach]

35 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Is BB-4 a top pairing defenseman? I mean, on a team that actually makes the playoffs?

He was on Colorado, wasn't he on their 2nd pair?  

[SabresVet]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:04 PM, Doohickie said:

I think the whole Levi thing is that they told him if he signed he would get a shot in the NHL right off the bat.  If you recall, he was finishing his junior year and if he went back for his senior year he would have been able to sign as a free agent after graduating.  In order to keep him in the fold, they wanted to make sure he signed.  When he came up last season he was 5-2 and looked pretty good.  Coming into this season I think the brain trust felt it was worth a shot, and in the spirit of what they told Levi, to keep him on the NHL roster out of camp.  When his numbers this season didn't look great and the rest of the goalie saga played out (injuries, etc.), they sent him down to get work.

It was not certain, going into this season, what his performance would be, after his strong audition last season... and they wanted to make sure they kept him in the organization.

This is a lot of circuitous logic here.  

We've seen players get NHL time after their college season ended on the first year of their ELC.  It's a good gesture from the team.  Power stands as one of the more recent examples and Mittlestadt before him.  To take Levi and play him at the end of 2022-23 is the comparison...but to the start him the following season is entirely different.

The problem with you saying in 2023 that he "was 5-2 and looked pretty good" is that teams had all season to watch tape on him and see his weaknesses.  He also didn't have the workload of a starter at the end of 22-23 to show if he was physically and mentally up to be a reliable starter.  Because even this "braintrust" doesn't make decisions based on a "it's worth a shot" mentality.  This is the NHL and not a beer league team.

No, their development plan for Levi was to start him in Buffalo this year within the three-headed monster and hoped he became the de facto starter.  The likelihood that would work is almost zero IMO, but they had no option.  Their inability to find a starter meant he needed to play before he was ready.

Worse, the lack of a goalie plan has directly affected to the overall record.  Buffalo needed to be in the playoffs this season and likely won't which means those young guys everyone is counting on won't get that experience to further their growth presumably in 2024-25.  Much of that was because their start this season was bad.  

In other words, this is very much a personnel self-inflicted wound.  Good news is, UPL has made himself the starter through his play, although playing a full time starter's minutes is becoming a challenge now.  But if he hadn't turned in several solid performances, they'd never have sent Levi down.  He'd have kept playing and struggling and then where would they be? Playing Comrie more? 

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, JohnC said:

 

We can disagree on what would make the best combinations on the blueline. But that discussion is made possible because in comparison to a few years ago, there is now enough accumulated talent where you can trade a player in order to add another player to better round out this roster. 

Mitts was a good player who had value. He was dealt for a top pairing defender. We gave up value to acquire value. We're allowed to have this discussion because we have a supply of assets to parlay with. Not long ago, that wasn't the case because of a dearth of talent. Injuries would result in a cascading effect where players would then be playing higher roles that they were capable of handling. Injuries can now be handled without having such damaging effects. 

Not to belabor the point, but I'm confident that Power is going to be a stud player for us. In the near future, he's going to viewed as a top-tier defenseman in the league. He's not a banger, and never will be. Don't let it cloud the fact that is going to be really good. 

This is a short term memory spin that makes KA sound like a success but it isn't really true. 

Do we have a bunch of unproven high end prospects? Absolutely. Ranked top prospect pool I think or close to the top by just about everyone. (Meanwhile Boston has the worst prospect pool every year and sits atop the league, but that's another discussion). But did KA magically make this happen with some sort of great management skill? Absolutely not.  

He traded away all of his top players. Eichel went on to win a cup remember. Reinhart's likely over 50 goals this year. So we have a bunch of prospects instead, hoo-ha!

We traded a 2C finally coming into his prime for a top pairing offensive D man. Fair deal, but the improvement in one area is a decrease in another. We were deep at center, now we are thin again. Krebs as 3C come on man, he's barely 4C, We now have a new hole to fill and that's how it goes. Don't pretend trading Mitts was some great hockey move. He moved a player he knew he wasn't going to pay what he wanted and to avoid that he traded him while he was in demand. It's a strategic move but it's not really an improvement. 

What we "are allowed" to have is a discussion of just how crappy KA is as a GM. Right now, imo, he's worse than JBot and maybe not even as good as Murray. If he hadn't gotten LUCKY with UPL (a JBot pick) we'd all be calling for his firing. UPL saved him on that so now we wait to see how badly he botches UPL's contract and the rest of the off season. I am not optimistic.

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, SabresVet said:

...but to the start him the following season is entirely different.

I get it, but I think they might have told him if he signed after his junior year, he'd have a shot at the NHL right away.

3 hours ago, SabresVet said:

No, their development plan for Levi was to start him in Buffalo this year within the three-headed monster and hoped he became the de facto starter.

Agreed.  I think they told him that to get him to sign.  To not keep him up at the beginning of this season would have been going back on their word and spoiling the relationship (if they did, in fact tell him he'd get a shot at an NHL spot to get him to sign).

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, SabresVet said:

In other words, this is very much a personnel self-inflicted wound.

Agree with this too.

[JohnC]

7 hours ago, SwampD said:

Is BB-4 a top pairing defenseman? I mean, on a team that actually makes the playoffs?

An unequivocal yes.