Crusader1969 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 No. I "admit" that the rare team that is fortunate enough to land transformational players at the top of the draft (or elsewhere) benefits greatly from doing so. That is substantially different from the position that a team is likely to become a contender by tanking in order to draft high. In most cases, teams that bottom out stay lousy for a long time. That unavoidable reality is why I and many others opposed the tank. The Sabres have drafted, in the last 4 years, #8, #2, #2, #8, and will probably be around #5 this year. Do you think they will make the playoffs next year? If they don't, that's a solid 8 years (at a minimum) with no playoffs. It's not just numbers. This isn't fantasy hockey. Derek Roy put up numbers too. Toews is a leader. He raises the level of play of those around him. He's also a very clutch player -- Conn Smythe winner, led Canadian Olympic team in scoring, scored in the gold-medal game, etc. And while his scoring is down this year, I think it's an exaggeration to say that it's been in decline for 3 years. He's had 28 goals per year for the last 3 years prior to this one, plus 17 pts in 19 playoff games, then 21 pts in 23 playoff games, then 6 pts in 7 playoff games -- all during a period of increasing offensive constipation league-wide. A rare team? Which team was fortunate to draft an elite generational player and didn't find success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I fully supported the tank, but now I think it may have been a mistake, and I would not ever do it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I fully supported the tank, still think it was the right thing to do, and I'll happily do it again 15 years from now if we don't fall into Jack's successor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I fully supported the tank, still think it was the right thing to do, and I'll happily do it again 15 years from now if we don't fall into Jack's successor.Yup. Byslma sucking ass shouldn't be a deterrent from gaining top tier talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I fully supported the tank, still think it was the right thing to do, and I'll happily do it again 15 years from now if we don't fall into Jack's successor. Well I'll prepare for battle, with the hopes that we'll never need to :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I fully supported the tank, but now I think it may have been a mistake, and I would not ever do it again. :thumbsup: I fully supported the tank, still think it was the right thing to do, and I'll happily do it again 15 years from now if we don't fall into Jack's successor. :thumbdown: I did not support the tank and would never. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 :thumbsup: :thumbdown: I did not support the tank and would never. It's okay, I don't hold your incorrectness against you :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) It's okay, I don't hold your incorrectness against you :P Stick that tongue of yours out again and I'll ......... Oh, nevermind!! :nana: Edited January 19, 2017 by Sabres Fan In NS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yup. Byslma sucking ass shouldn't be a deterrent from gaining top tier talent We sucked so much ass to get a guy that could wind up worse than Marner/Werenski/Provorov, that's the part that hurts. That season was murder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 A rare team? Which team was fortunate to draft an elite generational player and didn't find success? I think you misinterpreted my post. My point is that it is rare to land an elite generational player -- i.e. most #1/#2 draft picks do NOT fit that characterization. For every McD, there are 10 RNHs/Yakupovs/Halls/Fleurys.-- i.e. mostly good-to-very-good players (and some JAGs), but very few transformational players. That -- along with the prohibitive odds of winning the lottery in a year in which one of those guys is available -- is why the tank is chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 We sucked so much ass to get a guy that could wind up worse than Marner/Werenski/Provorov, that's the part that hurts. That season was murder. He won't. Don't worry. In fact I eagerly await all the "Jack Eichel took awhile, but he's finally grown into a superstar" hot takes that will accompany a coach who runs an offensive system. I think you misinterpreted my post. My point is that it is rare to land an elite generational player -- i.e. most #1/#2 draft picks do NOT fit that characterization. For every McD, there are 10 RNHs/Yakupovs/Halls/Fleurys.-- i.e. mostly good-to-very-good players (and some JAGs), but very few transformational players. That -- along with the prohibitive odds of winning the lottery in a year in which one of those guys is available -- is why the tank is chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Still better odds than finding a group of 12th overalls that can win the Cup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 He won't. Don't worry. In fact I eagerly await all the "Jack Eichel took awhile, but he's finally grown into a superstar" hot takes that will accompany a coach who runs an offensive system. Still better odds than finding a group of 12th overalls that can win the Cup. I'm reasonably confident too, but it's very much a nonzero probability. But you can still be bad enough to be in that lottery without doing what we did, you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I'm reasonably confident too, but it's very much a nonzero probability. But you can still be bad enough to be in that lottery without doing what we did, you know? Sure, but I'd rather be intentionally awful and end up with Eichel than unintentionally bad and end up with Noah Hanifin. I think what stings about the tank is it was two consecutive seasons. One in isolation would've been less painful by a notable measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Sure, but I'd rather be intentionally awful and end up with Reinhart and Eichel than unintentionally bad and end up with Draisaitl and Marner. I think what stings about the tank is it was two consecutive seasons. One in isolation would've been less painful by a notable measure. My issue is that these two situations could very well end up being equivalent. or a Nylander/Provorov, where we were slightly worse last year without Jack/Sam and won a ticket to Auston or something. I just am not convinced it was worth it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 So this is one of those debates - I'm one of those guys that doesn't believe in "clutch" and believes that one of the best two way wingers of all time, and guys like Duncan Keith and Ladd and other vets they've added at different points, have their leadership abilities ignored/transferred to Toews because he has a "C" sewn on his shirt, even though it is commonly stated that the "C" in hockey doesn't mean nearly as much in a locker room as it does to us fans and general media discussion. He's a good captain, so are a lot of other captains. How do you measure his captain abilities and leadership relative to another captain, Benn, Pavelski, Backes, Koivu? Does he captain the stars to the cup instead of a second round loss last season in place of Benn? I think he'd have made them worse, because he's worse than Benn at hockey. None of those Chicago cup teams were willed to victory by Toews, hoisted on his back. He was certainly integral, but Kane/Hossa/Sharp/Keith/Seabrook/Crawford have all played roles as large or larger in those runs. Well there has been a decline from when he was putting up 70 (that one time) to now where he fluctuates between being the 150th and 170th highest scoring NHL player (with some possession stats below 50% now, perhaps indicating defensive ability decline - or rather, the decline in ability of one of the all time great two way wingers that has been stapled to him his entire career). Something is up with Toews, but I honestly believe it's just the team transitioning from "dynasty" to "very good" and us realizing what Toews actually brings to the table, pretty good hockey, indistinguishable from Kopitar/Bergeron when they're at their heights. A place he should be proud to be, and much much lower than where he's put by so many people. Who has said that Hossa, Keith and Ladd aren't good leaders? There is no question that Chicago assembled a great team, with contributions from multiple great players. (I wouldn't put Ladd in that category though -- he was a good player whose game has fallen off the table the last few years.) As for not believing in "clutch" -- I could not disagree more. The playoffs are a different animal from the regular season. It's a harder game, and tougher to produce. Over the long haul, clutchness -- determination, focus and grace under pressure -- emerges. For example: Derek Roy, as gutless a player as the Sabres have ever had, "put up numbers" every year in the regular season -- and had 7 goals in 49 playoff games (2 of which were in 1 game, the incredible 7-6 win over Ottawa in 2006). Danny Briere, the most clutch Sabre ever, had 53 goals and 116 pts in 124 playoff games. Toews has 39 goals and 108 pts in 124 playoff games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Maybe Briere wasn't clutch, maybe he was just lazy in the regular season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Who has said that Hossa, Keith and Ladd aren't good leaders? There is no question that Chicago assembled a great team, with contributions from multiple great players. (I wouldn't put Ladd in that category though -- he was a good player whose game has fallen off the table the last few years.) As for not believing in "clutch" -- I could not disagree more. The playoffs are a different animal from the regular season. It's a harder game, and tougher to produce. Over the long haul, clutchness -- determination, focus and grace under pressure -- emerges. For example: Derek Roy, as gutless a player as the Sabres have ever had, "put up numbers" every year in the regular season -- and had 7 goals in 49 playoff games (2 of which were in 1 game, the incredible 7-6 win over Ottawa in 2006). Danny Briere, the most clutch Sabre ever, had 53 goals and 116 pts in 124 playoff games. Toews has 39 goals and 108 pts in 124 playoff games. Certainly not you, but their presence implies that Toews wasn't some superhero leader who carried scrubs around like he has often been portrayed. Ladd is referring to the 09-10 cup run, which may be the best and deepest team I've ever seen. (Keep my age in mind here haha) This argument has been had here several times, and I know your points and you know mine, so I'm not going to pursue it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) My issue is that these two situations could very well end up being equivalent. or a Nylander/Provorov, where we were slightly worse last year without Jack/Sam and won a ticket to Auston or something. I just am not convinced it was worth it yet. I don't think you can reasonably run the zillion different "what if" scenarios to get an answer, though. It could easily have turned out much worse not tanking, too. Edited January 19, 2017 by TrueBlueGED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Still better odds than finding a group of 12th overalls that can win the Cup. False dichotomy. Sure, but I'd rather be intentionally awful and end up with Eichel than unintentionally bad and end up with Noah Hanifin. I think what stings about the tank is it was two consecutive seasons. One in isolation would've been less painful by a notable measure. And another one. The point, in other words, is that the choice isn't, and wasn't, between tanking for Eichel and being lousy for Hanifan. It is/was between tanking for Eichel and methodically building and maintaining a good team that is in the playoffs every year and incrementally improves every year -- and seizing the opportunity to go over the top when a Pronger or Hossa or Thornton or Seguin or Kessel or other elite player pops loose, which happens regularly. That way you don't become a chronic loser and subject your fans to a decade in the wilderness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I don't think you can reasonably run the zillion different "what if" scenarios to get an answer, though. It could easily have turned out much worse not tanking, too. And since we really don't know, I'm inclined to avoid another season of murder that takes 5 years off my life :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 And since we really don't know, I'm inclined to avoid another season of murder that takes 5 years off my life :P I had way more fun during the tank than I am right now :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 I had way more fun during the tank than I am right now :lol: You frighten me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 (edited) You frighten me. This is the most unenjoyable hockey season I have ever experienced. False dichotomy. And another one. The point, in other words, is that the choice isn't, and wasn't, between tanking for Eichel and being lousy for Hanifan. It is/was between tanking for Eichel and methodically building and maintaining a good team that is in the playoffs every year and incrementally improves every year -- and seizing the opportunity to go over the top when a Pronger or Hossa or Thornton or Seguin or Kessel or other elite player pops loose, which happens regularly. That way you don't become a chronic loser and subject your fans to a decade in the wilderness. Yea, because Hossa-type players are coming to Buffalo as free agents. And we already had Kessel. His name was Vanek. Edit: I could go in. Risk Nash? We weren't on his list of approved teams. We couldn't even get Jimmy freaking Vesey to come here. Your method of building a team is every bit as pie in the sky chasing the end of the rainbow as tanking. Edited January 19, 2017 by TrueBlueGED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yea, because Hossa-type players are coming to Buffalo as free agents. And we already had Kessel. His name was Vanek. They sho'nuff aren't coming to a bottom-5 team. But a team that's in the 2nd round of the playoffs every year, with fancy new facilities, a good coach (hypothetically speaking, of course) and Daddy Warbucks throwing money at the situation? Many wouldn't come, but some would. Parise and Suter went to Minnesota, Hossa went to Detroit, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 They sho'nuff aren't coming to a bottom-5 team. But a team that's in the 2nd round of the playoffs every year, with fancy new facilities, a good coach (hypothetically speaking, of course) and Daddy Warbucks throwing money at the situation? Many wouldn't come, but some would. Parise and Suter went to Minnesota, Hossa went to Detroit, etc. And when was the last time we were regularly making the 2nd round? How likely was that to happen during the tank years had we chosen to keep trying to win? Hell, even when we were good, how many big free agents would even give us the time of day? NY, Boston LA....yea, they can muddle their way through as a middle team and still get the big names. We can't, and we never could. Even with daddy warbucks and a new locker room, we couldn't even get Brad Richards to meet with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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