papazoid Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Ken Dryden is a Hall of Fame NHL goaltender and six-time Stanley Cup champion. He is also the former president of the Toronto Maple Leafs and a former member of the Parliament of Canada. the following is a very powerful, sobering and thoughtful message on head injuries: I like Gary Bettman. I was ready to.... Please insert link to the original content. http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7352942/waiting-science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Good read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 When two hard surfaces collide such as two hard helmets or a helmet hitting the Ice the surfaces have no give so the whiplash effect inside your head on your brain is severe. We need to add padding to the outside of the helmet where its needed most at the point of impact. Put padding on both sides of the helmet where most logos are placed or make a Logo made out of padding that would stick out 3/4 inch. Also put a clear strip sown the center of the helmet, front to back where the center stripe normally is on a Football helmet. Softer exterior on helmets would reduce impact/injury in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Not a new idea. Pretty sure Chris Kelso had a football helmet with exterior padding added after he had a concussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Not a new idea. Pretty sure Chris Kelso had a football helmet with exterior padding added after he had a concussion. Mark Kelso (not Chris) sported the Great Gazoo helmet. http://www.tribeathletics.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=25100&ATCLID=205097186 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 To really do it right, I think you have to make the ice bigger/wider and make safety adjustments with the players helmets and padding. Also: The penalties have to be harsh and you need someone like Kerry Fraser in charge...someone who knows the game inside and out. Today's players have a ruthless streak, as if it had been drummed into them for years by an army of demented hockey moms and dads. Many take advantage with headshots of players in vulnerable positions and there doesn't seem to be any consequence, like getting beat up by an enforcer. It's a complicated fix but I think to do it right might be too expensive for profit-minding owners. http://www.bergerbytes.ca/2011/12/its-sad-but-crosby-should-consider-retirement/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 To really do it right, I think you have to make the ice bigger/wider and make safety adjustments with the players helmets and padding. Also: The penalties have to be harsh and you need someone like Kerry Fraser in charge...someone who knows the game inside and out. Today's players have a ruthless streak, as if it had been drummed into them for years by an army of demented hockey moms and dads. Many take advantage with headshots of players in vulnerable positions and there doesn't seem to be any consequence, like getting beat up by an enforcer. It's a complicated fix but I think to do it right might be too expensive for profit-minding owners. http://www.bergerbyt...der-retirement/ I like the suggestions in bold. Fraser's blog seems to indicate that he takes a lot of time to think about the hits and ramifications, so I would love to see him in there instead of Shanny. And one of the articles I was reading - maybe the Dryden one posted elsewhere - made a good point about how the players have gotten bigger, faster, stronger, but the rink hasn't changed, so there is less room to maneuver and a higher chance of collisions. Bigger ice surface might make it harder to get a clean bead on someone for that monster headshot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Mark Kelso (not Chris) sported the Great Gazoo helmet. http://www.tribeathl...TCLID=205097186 Chris Kelso, Mark Kelsay. It's easy to get them confused. As to the question at hand, a helmet of any kind will not offer protection against concussions. It's simply not a shock absorbtion issue. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelo Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 If the NHL should be blamed for anything, it’s a lack of foresight. With the exception of Madison Square Garden (New York); the Nassau Coliseum (Long Island); Rexall Place (Edmonton); Joe Louis Arena (Detroit) and the Scotiabank Saddledome (Calgary), all league facilities have been built post-1993; a number of them in the new millennium. This provided NHL owners a glowing opportunity to expand the playing surface commensurate with the evolution of today’s bigger, faster athlete; the ever-increasing science of training and nutrition, and the modernization of equipment worn beneath the uniform. Instead, and owing to the insatiable pursuit of revenue, we have the equivalent of caged animals violently crashing into one another on generally the same-sized playing field as in the 1960s and ’70s. With a second referee, there’s an additional person on the ice today. What real chance ofavoiding head trauma to these guys have? From the article: http://www.bergerbytes.ca/2011/12/its-sad-but-crosby-should-consider-retirement/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Chris Kelso, Mark Kelsay. It's easy to get them confused. As to the question at hand, a helmet of any kind will not offer protection against concussions. It's simply not a shock absorbtion issue. GO SABRES!!! I don't know if I agree with the idea that a helmet of any kind will not offer protection against concussions. If that's the case then hockey, football, baseball, NASCAR, horse racing/riding....those are all done. If helmets can't offer any protection, then what is the point and how do the games continue with any illusion of safety? As for shock absorption...I don't know. There has to be a way to deal with the energy from a collision. Look at how cars are engineered with crumple zones to absorb and direct the energy from a collision. Not saying helmets should have crumple zones but one would think helmets could be engineered to direct and absorb that force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I don't know if I agree with the idea that a helmet of any kind will not offer protection against concussions. If that's the case then hockey, football, baseball, NASCAR, horse racing/riding....those are all done. If helmets can't offer any protection, then what is the point and how do the games continue with any illusion of safety? As for shock absorption...I don't know. There has to be a way to deal with the energy from a collision. Look at how cars are engineered with crumple zones to absorb and direct the energy from a collision. Not saying helmets should have crumple zones but one would think helmets could be engineered to direct and absorb that force. The hans device and safer barrier was developed to help prevent against severe brain damage.(among other things) The Kelso helmet is useless because of the way it looks(athletes won't wear it) and while there was extra padding , it was on the inside as far as I know. We have to add padding on the exterior without making it look like a martians helmet. The whole helmet does not need extra padding, just specific points on the helmet/head in my opinion. Do it in a way that does not look bad and athletes would appreciate the extra protection in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 I don't know if I agree with the idea that a helmet of any kind will not offer protection against concussions. If that's the case then hockey, football, baseball, NASCAR, horse racing/riding....those are all done. If helmets can't offer any protection, then what is the point and how do the games continue with any illusion of safety? As for shock absorption...I don't know. There has to be a way to deal with the energy from a collision. Look at how cars are engineered with crumple zones to absorb and direct the energy from a collision. Not saying helmets should have crumple zones but one would think helmets could be engineered to direct and absorb that force. I should have used a better choice of words and said that helmets can't prevent concussions. And instead of saying simply not an absorbtion issue, I should have said not simply an absorbtion issue. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted December 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 original link: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7352942/waiting-science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyhound Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 Put the red line back in, and get rid of the trapezoid. If the red line goes back in, it reduces the amount of speed through the neutral zone. Brayden Mcnabb has sent at least 3 or 4 guys in for repairs between periods, and a number of those did not come back. Those guys were flying through the neutral zone only to be met by a brick wall. Getting rid of the trapezoid allows goaltenders to get to the puck, thus eliminating the possibility of two guys injuring themselves trying to get to the puck first. Goaltender grabs puck, dishes it off, problem solved. Change those two things, and you will see less devastating collisions. Question, how does it effect t.v. ratings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted December 18, 2011 Report Share Posted December 18, 2011 The hans device and safer barrier was developed to help prevent against severe brain damage.(among other things) The Kelso helmet is useless because of the way it looks(athletes won't wear it) and while there was extra padding , it was on the inside as far as I know. We have to add padding on the exterior without making it look like a martians helmet. The whole helmet does not need extra padding, just specific points on the helmet/head in my opinion. Do it in a way that does not look bad and athletes would appreciate the extra protection in my opinion. The Pro Cap, which Kelso wore, is designed to absorb and deaden impacts: The ProCap is made of a specially developed, reaction molded urethane foam designed to absorb vast amounts of energy by providing resilience at the moment of impact, compared to traditional hard-shell helmets alone.. http://theprocap.com/about.html If it is the most effective way to prevent injuries, athletes will wear it - maybe not voluntarily. The leagues and owners will have to mandate it, but they can push it through. I should have used a better choice of words and said that helmets can't prevent concussions. And instead of saying simply not an absorbtion issue, I should have said not simply an absorbtion issue. GO SABRES!!! Fair enough. Put the red line back in, and get rid of the trapezoid. If the red line goes back in, it reduces the amount of speed through the neutral zone. Brayden Mcnabb has sent at least 3 or 4 guys in for repairs between periods, and a number of those did not come back. Those guys were flying through the neutral zone only to be met by a brick wall. Getting rid of the trapezoid allows goaltenders to get to the puck, thus eliminating the possibility of two guys injuring themselves trying to get to the puck first. Goaltender grabs puck, dishes it off, problem solved. Change those two things, and you will see less devastating collisions. Question, how does it effect t.v. ratings? I think these would all help (and adding no-touch icing) but the best way (IMHO) is to expand the rinks. That will cut down on the pinball effect we're seeing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 The Pro Cap, which Kelso wore, is designed to absorb and deaden impacts: The ProCap is made of a specially developed, reaction molded urethane foam designed to absorb vast amounts of energy by providing resilience at the moment of impact, compared to traditional hard-shell helmets alone.. http://theprocap.com/about.html If it is the most effective way to prevent injuries, athletes will wear it - maybe not voluntarily. The leagues and owners will have to mandate it, but they can push it through. Fair enough. I think these would all help (and adding no-touch icing) but the best way (IMHO) is to expand the rinks. That will cut down on the pinball effect we're seeing now. The Kelso helmet is to dorky looking and the extra protection can be added without this huge design change that would cost a fortune. Right Idea , but unattractive and just not practical. Like I mentioned earlier, the players have to like it and they don't want to look like a martian from outer space, hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeyhound Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 The Pro Cap, which Kelso wore, is designed to absorb and deaden impacts: The ProCap is made of a specially developed, reaction molded urethane foam designed to absorb vast amounts of energy by providing resilience at the moment of impact, compared to traditional hard-shell helmets alone.. http://theprocap.com/about.html If it is the most effective way to prevent injuries, athletes will wear it - maybe not voluntarily. The leagues and owners will have to mandate it, but they can push it through. Fair enough. I think these would all help (and adding no-touch icing) but the best way (IMHO) is to expand the rinks. That will cut down on the pinball effect we're seeing now. It's funny you should mention expanding the rinks. A friend of mine suggested the same thing; however, I disagreed. I think the rink size is fine; I watched some 70's and 80's hockey a week ago and I saw no problem with rink size. Just like everything, first the pendulum swings one way then the other; if we can just get it to stop in the middle all will be fine. I agree that we have the technology to make the equipment better for the players; however, this is hockey we are talking about. It seems to me after the Buffalo vs Dallas playoff disaster, networks let the league know they were not interested in loosing revenue, and for this reason, demanded that the league clean up their act. Getting rid of the clutching and grabbing was not enough. So here we are 10 years later, and the game has improved; however, I do see the consequences of removing the red line, and the creation of the trapezoid as a problem. To me what makes the NHL the NHL is the in tight small ice surface that calls for quicker decisions while handling the puck. If you put the red line back in guys will be in tighter and there won't be as much time to build up a ton of speed. Furthermore, I think the NHL should consider shortening the season by 10 games. Before anyone calls for my head, think about it. In my opinion, some of these back to back games are a disaster on several levels. For example: What is the first thing to go when a player is fatigued? Answer, mental acuity. When one is fatigued, the ability to make quick, accurate, and concise decisions is diminished. When the game is as fast as it is, combined with the players of today, wow, I think some of these back to back games are a recipe for disaster. Teams are squeezing ever bit of effort out of these guys, and the demand for more production is high. When you are tired you not be thinking am I making a poor choice; instead, you hear the echo of your coach in your head, and you push yourself more. Take out some of the back to back situations by changing the scheduling around a bit. Just some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 The Kelso helmet is to dorky looking and the extra protection can be added without this huge design change that would cost a fortune. Right Idea , but unattractive and just not practical. Like I mentioned earlier, the players have to like it and they don't want to look like a martian from outer space, hehe It doesn't have to be the Pro Cap, but the guys who have used it credit it with stopping them from further concussions. And I disagree that the huge design changes won't cost a fortune - if it is inexpensive to do so, then why haven't they done it yet? It behooves everyone - players, owners, the league - for the players (especially the stars) to be on the ice, not in the trainer's room or a neurologist's office. As for how it looks,...frankly I don't give a ###### if it looks like a Martian. The league and owners have to decide if looking a little goofy in a bigger helmet and being safer is more important than looks. If so, they mandate a new helmet. Period. It's funny you should mention expanding the rinks. A friend of mine suggested the same thing; however, I disagreed. I think the rink size is fine; I watched some 70's and 80's hockey a week ago and I saw no problem with rink size. Just like everything, first the pendulum swings one way then the other; if we can just get it to stop in the middle all will be fine. I agree that we have the technology to make the equipment better for the players; however, this is hockey we are talking about. It seems to me after the Buffalo vs Dallas playoff disaster, networks let the league know they were not interested in loosing revenue, and for this reason, demanded that the league clean up their act. Getting rid of the clutching and grabbing was not enough. So here we are 10 years later, and the game has improved; however, I do see the consequences of removing the red line, and the creation of the trapezoid as a problem. To me what makes the NHL the NHL is the in tight small ice surface that calls for quicker decisions while handling the puck. If you put the red line back in guys will be in tighter and there won't be as much time to build up a ton of speed. The problem is that players are much bigger now - across the board - than in the 70s and 80s, yet the rink size has stayed the same. Plus you've added another referee, so there is another body on an increasingly congested ice surface. The other problem, as pointed out in a different article, is that some of these injuries are coming from incidental contact - not the big high-speed collisions and headshots that the NHL is mostly concerned with. I don't think we need to go up to IIHF sizes but something between the current NHL size and the IIHF would probably suffice, as long as other rule changes - no-touch icing and taking out the trapezoid are implemented with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 It doesn't have to be the Pro Cap, but the guys who have used it credit it with stopping them from further concussions. And I disagree that the huge design changes won't cost a fortune - if it is inexpensive to do so, then why haven't they done it yet? It behooves everyone - players, owners, the league - for the players (especially the stars) to be on the ice, not in the trainer's room or a neurologist's office. As for how it looks,...frankly I don't give a ###### if it looks like a Martian. The league and owners have to decide if looking a little goofy in a bigger helmet and being safer is more important than looks. If so, they mandate a new helmet. Period. The problem is that players are much bigger now - across the board - than in the 70s and 80s, yet the rink size has stayed the same. Plus you've added another referee, so there is another body on an increasingly congested ice surface. The other problem, as pointed out in a different article, is that some of these injuries are coming from incidental contact - not the big high-speed collisions and headshots that the NHL is mostly concerned with. I don't think we need to go up to IIHF sizes but something between the current NHL size and the IIHF would probably suffice, as long as other rule changes - no-touch icing and taking out the trapezoid are implemented with it. Myself personally, I'm inclined to agree, make them wear the protection regardless of how it looks, however finding a happy medium would be a best case scenerio. Adding clear padding to the exterior in specific area's as I mentioned earlier would only take the manufacturing of the padding and an adhesion method. Easier and more practical to test in the field. Reducing impact in this way should become mandatory throughout the sports world in my opinion because right now the helmet that we hope will protect our athletes or even motorcyclists out on the streets is a big part of the problem. You cannot allow to hard surfaces to come in contact whith one another at a high velocity without the whiplash and that goes for pavement , on Ice, helmet to helmet, right on down the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Myself personally, I'm inclined to agree, make them wear the protection regardless of how it looks, however finding a happy medium would be a best case scenerio. Adding clear padding to the exterior in specific area's as I mentioned earlier would only take the manufacturing of the padding and an adhesion method. Easier and more practical to test in the field. Reducing impact in this way should become mandatory throughout the sports world in my opinion because right now the helmet that we hope will protect our athletes or even motorcyclists out on the streets is a big part of the problem. You cannot allow to hard surfaces to come in contact whith one another at a high velocity without the whiplash and that goes for pavement , on Ice, helmet to helmet, right on down the line. I'm sure there have been millions of $$$ poured into this. If it were that easy - you would see this. In fact, even non-helmet padding doesn't get made that way in hockey or football. The localized force dissipation is probably minimal compared to spreading it over the hard pad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 I'm sure there have been millions of $$$ poured into this. If it were that easy - you would see this. In fact, even non-helmet padding doesn't get made that way in hockey or football. The localized force dissipation is probably minimal compared to spreading it over the hard pad. With all due respect SDS So are you saying we can't improvise, come up with something more practical, or better? Right now there is no padding on the outside of a helmet and If millions of dollars have been poured into this then they didn't do a very good job. Sometimes something simple gets overlooked. How long have hard shelled helmets been used? and in my opinion hard shell helmets are a big part of the problem. Keep in mind protecting the brain with safer barriers and the Hans device is relatively new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Until somebody figures out a way to prevent the brain from moving and sloshing around in it's fluid, no helmet available now or in the future will prevent them. Especially in the case of a player who has had more than one concussion. The risk is exponential that he'll suffer another and that it will take less violent collisions to produce them. So, again especially in the case of a player with previous concussions, the helmet technology becomes increasingly less effective as the risk increases. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korab rules Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 With all due respect SDS So are you saying we can't improvise, come up with something more practical, or better? Right now there is no padding on the outside of a helmet and If millions of dollars have been poured into this then they didn't do a very good job. Sometimes something simple gets overlooked. How long have hard shelled helmets been used? and in my opinion hard shell helmets are a big part of the problem. Keep in mind protecting the brain with safer barriers and the Hans device is relatively new. Sometimes something extremely complicated looks simple when it is so oversimplified you can't see the problem anymore. Seeing as Gazoo helmets has been in use for 20+ years, I am sure the engineers and scientists and doctors working on this issue have considered it. Feel free to conduct your own home testing, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 With all due respect SDS So are you saying we can't improvise, come up with something more practical, or better? Right now there is no padding on the outside of a helmet and If millions of dollars have been poured into this then they didn't do a very good job. Sometimes something simple gets overlooked. How long have hard shelled helmets been used? and in my opinion hard shell helmets are a big part of the problem. Keep in mind protecting the brain with safer barriers and the Hans device is relatively new. Perhaps if you explained why you are qualified to make this assessment, maybe it would make the suggestion more credible. Are you a structural engineer? Have you made a finite-element model with a significant number of nodes to properly model the energy dissipation? Where does the clear padding come from? Is there a product you know about or is this unobtanium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figster Posted December 19, 2011 Report Share Posted December 19, 2011 Perhaps if you explained why you are qualified to make this assessment, maybe it would make the suggestion more credible. Are you a structural engineer? Have you made a finite-element model with a significant number of nodes to properly model the energy dissipation? Where does the clear padding come from? Is there a product you know about or is this unobtanium? Honestly SDS,it doesn't take a rocket scientist in my opinion to determine If you take two helmets and slam them together theres not a bit of give and while the inner padding is all fine and good, all it really does is keep your head snug and does very little by way of protecting your brain from the whiplash. I don't claim to have all the answers , or what type of material would work best, but the simple fact that we have no padding on the exterior of hard shelled helmets tells me something more can be done. (Land Survey/Construction Engineer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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