X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 In the last 3 years, Vokoun has been 2nd, 3rd and 9th in save %. How many times in 7 years has Miller been in the top 10? What kind of team has Vokoun had surrounding him? Don't get me wrong, I think Miller is a good goaltender. But there are a couple of problems. One that we've already mentioned is the cap hit. $6+ mil goes a long way. Take a look at the goaltenders making headlines in the last couple of weeks. Let's take a look at the goaltenders making headlines last year in the playoffs. How much were/are they getting paid? Were those teams dropping serious coin on their netminders? There is no way Miller is worth $5.25. The second problem is IF Enroth is our goaltender of the future, Miller won't accept taking a cut in games played. Nor will Enroth (nor should he) accept being a backup until Miller gets old. There's just too much overlap time and something has to give. Why not dump the high $ contract and use it to improve the rest of the team. Miller finished 17th in save % and 22nd in GAA this year. Somehow I doubt our season would have been any worse with a low $ average goaltender in net. Only reason I mentioned Vokoun is because he is still one of the best and most consistent goaltenders in the league. He would still be our starter and it would give Enroth 20-30 games to gain some experience. If the Sabres wait until Miller's contract runs out to make Enroth the starter.......... well it's just not fair to keep him a backup that long. If the Sabres wait until he becomes a free agent they get NOTHING in return. Edit: Yes I know signing Vokoun would still be a hefty price tag and would likely only leave the Sabres with an extra $2mil or so. My point is we could get him for nothing in return so losing him after his contract is up wouldn't be a big deal. Vokoun is on a trap team that gives up about 35 shots a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannustyrannus Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Or a microcosm of the Sabres in general. If Miller doesn't stand on his head, we lose. Without Miller, the Sabres would have lost the series in 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Or a microcosm of the Sabres in general. If Miller doesn't stand on his head, we lose. Without Miller, the Sabres would have lost the series in 4. I don't completely buy that though. Like we would have lost the series either way, but who's to say Enroth wouldn't have gotten out there and gone to town on ######. And stood on his head and AMAZE EVERYBODY? Nobody... Nobody can say it wouldn't happen, because there wasn't the chance. Not saying it would have happened. Saying it could have. And staying with Miller when he's been this inconsistent, when we pay him this much money, because we're not willing to give up on him yet is ludacris to me. Especially when we have a young, promising, cheaper goal tender waiting in the wings. Not saying Enroth is set to start in '11-'12, but we need to think longer term. Maybe without Miller and a few of our slacking forwards we can afford to give Enroth a better supporting cast, rather than spending money on a better goalie with no supporting cast. (Not a shot to our young guys, but we all know we need a big D-man or so for some support). Like, wasn't it a risky move to play Miller over Biron in '05-'06? Biron was coming off an injury, Miller had been playing well so we went with it. Why didn't we do that this season? Because we pay Miller too much money to let him sit the bench. And people seem to be stuck on this "He was amazing...once" mentality. He shows flashes of it now, but he's not the goalie he was pre-olympics. Congratulations on the kid by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 And staying with Miller when he's been this inconsistent, when we pay him this much money, because we're not willing to give up on him yet is ludacris to me. Especially when we have a young, promising, cheaper goal tender waiting in the wings. Miller is victories away for reigning as the all time winningest goalie in franchise history, we finally have a GREAT backup in Enroth, and cap room to sign a top defenseman along with a young and promissing defensive core. Why would we throw away our goaltending advantage, when we could just build upon it. You know what the problem is? You expect Ryan to carry this team like Hasek. He is no dominic Hasek, and there will never be another Dominic Hasek. Do we pay him too much money? Absolutely, but if you want to free up some room in the cap, try getting rid of the players seen as dead weight. In my estimate, miller gets paid anywhere from .75 to .5 million too much. drop morrisson, lose timmer, and you've already made up more than enough room. Odds are you can get better for cheaper with that cap space. Enroth and an up and coming D core, equal a better miller in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalalalalaFontaine Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 fixed it for you. Did you even watch game four?? I was in the plaza during the third when he was making one miraculous save after another. We were going crazier for those saves than we did for pommers goal. Did the team play well that game? absolutely. Did Miller stop Danny Briere, AKA public enemy #1 right in front of the net when he was all alone? You bet your @$$ he did! A shutout obviously isn't just a goal-tending effort, it takes a team too. But when people call for Millers dismissal when he's one of the only ones who consistently shows up every night, it's laughable. Briere was in too close and put it right in his glove.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalalalalaFontaine Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Miller definitely is there every night when he plays, and is an above average goaltender in this league. Definitely a steal in the 5th round (might be the only thing Regier has gotten right), but he would be easily replaceable. I'm not sold on Enroth, but quality goalies are a dime a dozen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloSoldier2010 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Briere was in too close and put it right in his glove.. So every miraculous save he's made in his career has just been because the shooter was in too close? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalalalalaFontaine Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 So every miraculous save he's made in his career has just been because the shooter was in too close? that particular one... absolutely. a good save, yes. any left handed goalie would have had his glove in the same place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Miller definitely is there every night when he plays, and is an above average goaltender in this league. Definitely a steal in the 5th round (might be the only thing Regier has gotten right), but he would be easily replaceable. I'm not sold on Enroth, but quality goalies are a dime a dozen. You are aware what "a dime a dozen" means right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Miller is victories away for reigning as the all time winningest goalie in franchise history, we finally have a GREAT backup in Enroth, and cap room to sign a top defenseman along with a young and promissing defensive core. Why would we throw away our goaltending advantage, when we could just build upon it. You know what the problem is? You expect Ryan to carry this team like Hasek. He is no dominic Hasek, and there will never be another Dominic Hasek. Do we pay him too much money? Absolutely, but if you want to free up some room in the cap, try getting rid of the players seen as dead weight. In my estimate, miller gets paid anywhere from .75 to .5 million too much. drop morrisson, lose timmer, and you've already made up more than enough room. Odds are you can get better for cheaper with that cap space. Enroth and an up and coming D core, equal a better miller in my eyes. Trust me, I cant wait to drop the dead-beat forwards. But I don't think Miller is the long term solution to this team. I think being #18 in Save Percentage, and #23 in Goals Against Average is something that we could do with someone cheaper, there are GOBS of goalies worth probably $3-5 on that list ahead of him. I don't care if he's solid, or even stealing games, we're paying $6.2m for a goalie who is not worth that much. Make him take a pay-cut, or send him elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Carey Price $3m Corey Crawford $850k Jonathan Quick $1.9m Antti Niemi $2m Pekka Rinne $2.8m 5 goalies, all $3m or less, all finished with better numbers than Miller in GAA and Save%. Each of them played AT LEAST 57 games, Miller played 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 I've loved Grier's career. Hard-nosed. Cool-headed. Smart. Hard-working player. I suspect he won't be back. The 4th Philly goal was the one on Miller. Wicked shot, but he was beat cleanly. Other than reading about how broken up Grier was about that play, the thing that bugs me the most is that his comments there pretty much prove that the team viewed that goal the same exact way I did. The second that puck went into the net, the game was over. I've had run ins with Grier and know several people who have dating back to his college days out here and I have never heard anyone say a single negative thing about him. If this is the end, it sucks that it had to end this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Briere was in too close and put it right in his glove.. He put it right in to his glove because miller didnt panic like a lot of worse goalies would have, he stood briere up. It is positioning with miller not the crazy saves of Hasek that make miller good. Millers position on briere was good, he came out and challendged and briere had to attempt that. Dont try and cheapen it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Carey Price $3m Corey Crawford $850k Jonathan Quick $1.9m Antti Niemi $2m Pekka Rinne $2.8m 5 goalies, all $3m or less, all finished with better numbers than Miller in GAA and Save%. Each of them played AT LEAST 57 games, Miller played 66. Montreal: Better Def than Buffalo Chicago: Way Better Defense than Buffalo LA: Better defense than buffalo SJ: Better defense, offense than buffalo Nashville: Much Stronger Defense than buffalo Don't you guys get it yet? Our defense is young and allows so many high quality chances that no goalie is going to be able to stop them. Its a growing pain of having no veteran def but having solid rookie def. I know that you will argue well then we should dump miller and add defense but we have 3-4 players under 25 who are going to be stars if they keep working this hard. We need a top of line Veteran like Ehrhoff to help manage them. You put that defense out there next year and give them 82 games to learn and then go to the playoffs we are a scary team with millsy in net. SCARY GOOD. Myers is now a vet as far as I am concerned and Leo is too so we need to add 1 more and break up the lines so its like: Myers/Weber - Myers has offensive skill and needs to play with a guy whos got the attitude that Weber does. Weber is strong defensively Leopold/Gragani: Leo has got a shot but he is also a smart guy and can teach Grags. Grags can pass better than a lot of guys and is very smart defensively X/Sekera: Sekera needs to learn how to lock down his own zone and be consistent. You could switch X with Myers if he struggles. Butler is your 7th morrisonn is traded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Montreal: Better Def than Buffalo Chicago: Way Better Defense than Buffalo LA: Better defense than buffalo SJ: Better defense, offense than buffalo Nashville: Much Stronger Defense than buffalo Don't you guys get it yet? Our defense is young and allows so many high quality chances that no goalie is going to be able to stop them. Its a growing pain of having no veteran def but having solid rookie def. I know that you will argue well then we should dump miller and add defense but we have 3-4 players under 25 who are going to be stars if they keep working this hard. We need a top of line Veteran like Ehrhoff to help manage them. You put that defense out there next year and give them 82 games to learn and then go to the playoffs we are a scary team with millsy in net. SCARY GOOD. Myers is now a vet as far as I am concerned and Leo is too so we need to add 1 more and break up the lines so its like: Myers/Weber - Myers has offensive skill and needs to play with a guy whos got the attitude that Weber does. Weber is strong defensively Leopold/Gragani: Leo has got a shot but he is also a smart guy and can teach Grags. Grags can pass better than a lot of guys and is very smart defensively X/Sekera: Sekera needs to learn how to lock down his own zone and be consistent. You could switch X with Myers if he struggles. Butler is your 7th morrisonn is traded. I think you nailed it pretty well. I've been asking myself what's the biggest difference between last year's Vezina winning, Olympic MVP Miller and this year's version. And it keeps coming back to the Dmen in front of him. Losing Tallydman and the experience they bring, especially for the playoffs, was big. That said, I firmly believe our D will be better off for the experience this year. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss_The_Amerks Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Even with all that being said, I'll say it again. Miller is not a long term solution! Start Enroth young, maybe he'll be that guy that stays here for the long run. It's too expensive to pay Miller to backstop this team, and quite frankly, it's been mentioned before, but I'm sure he's getting tired of this team leaning on him. Let him go elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Carey Price $3m Corey Crawford $850k Jonathan Quick $1.9m Antti Niemi $2m Pekka Rinne $2.8m 5 goalies, all $3m or less, all finished with better numbers than Miller in GAA and Save%. Each of them played AT LEAST 57 games, Miller played 66. of course we can forget about the rest of the team playing infront of them, and the fact that most of them (if not all) are going to become FA's soon and will be getting hefty raises for their stats. lets take a look at the remainder of the teams still in and what they pay for goaltending (These are from Cap Geek) Vancouver - Luongo $5.333 (thats cap hit, actual salary is $10 mil), Schneider $900,000 for a total of $6.233 mil. They spend $24.75 mil on defence ($45.7 mil total) Nashville - Rinne $3.4, Lindback $875,000 for a total of $4.275 mil. They spend $14 mil on defence($40,837,500 Total) Detroit - Osgood $1,416,667, Howard $716,667 ($2.25 mil then for the next 2 years after) MacDonald $550,000 for a total of $2,683,334 They spend $21.833 mil on defence ($46.8 mil total) San Jose - Niemi $2 mil, Niittymaki $2 mil for a total of $4 mil. They spend $21 mil on defence ($51.825 mil total) Boston - Thomas $5 mil, Rask $1.25 mil for a total of $6.25 mil. They spend $20.2 mil on defence ($52.2 mil total) Philladelphia - Bobrovsky $1.75 mil, Leighton $1.55 mil, Boucher $925,000 for a total of $4.225. They spend $24.3 mil on defence ($58,969,155 Total) Washington - Varlamov $821,667, Neuvirth $821,667 for a total of $1.64 mil. They spend $25.057 mil on defence ($50,896,795 total) Tampa Bay - Roloson $2.5 mil, Smith $2.2 mil for a total of $4.7 mil. They spend $20 mil on defence ($36,546,916 total) Compared to Buffalo - Miller $6.25, Enroth $866,667, Lalime $650,000 for a total of $7.77 mil. They spend $10.825 mil on defence ($40,842,024 total) Looking at all those numbers, the Sabres may spend more on goaltending (about the same as Vancouver if you remove Lalime), but they spend approx. 1/2 of what the other teams do on defence and less on the total team then Buffalo. the closest team to compare to Buffalo is Nashville, they spend less on goaltending by about $3 mil, but $4mil more on their defence. Also, the teams really scrimping on goaltending all have great defences infront of them and typically more then just one goaltender (they have a rotation of atleast 2 good goalies) Its crazy that we are actually having this discussion, talking about replacing Miller with a kid who has started in 15 NHL games for his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 of course we can forget about the rest of the team playing infront of them, and the fact that most of them (if not all) are going to become FA's soon and will be getting hefty raises for their stats. lets take a look at the remainder of the teams still in and what they pay for goaltending (These are from Cap Geek) Vancouver - Luongo $5.333 (thats cap hit, actual salary is $10 mil), Schneider $900,000 for a total of $6.233 mil. They spend $24.75 mil on defence ($45.7 mil total) Nashville - Rinne $3.4, Lindback $875,000 for a total of $4.275 mil. They spend $14 mil on defence($40,837,500 Total) Detroit - Osgood $1,416,667, Howard $716,667 ($2.25 mil then for the next 2 years after) MacDonald $550,000 for a total of $2,683,334 They spend $21.833 mil on defence ($46.8 mil total) San Jose - Niemi $2 mil, Niittymaki $2 mil for a total of $4 mil. They spend $21 mil on defence ($51.825 mil total) Boston - Thomas $5 mil, Rask $1.25 mil for a total of $6.25 mil. They spend $20.2 mil on defence ($52.2 mil total) Philladelphia - Bobrovsky $1.75 mil, Leighton $1.55 mil, Boucher $925,000 for a total of $4.225. They spend $24.3 mil on defence ($58,969,155 Total) Washington - Varlamov $821,667, Neuvirth $821,667 for a total of $1.64 mil. They spend $25.057 mil on defence ($50,896,795 total) Tampa Bay - Roloson $2.5 mil, Smith $2.2 mil for a total of $4.7 mil. They spend $20 mil on defence ($36,546,916 total) Compared to Buffalo - Miller $6.25, Enroth $866,667, Lalime $650,000 for a total of $7.77 mil. They spend $10.825 mil on defence ($40,842,024 total) Looking at all those numbers, the Sabres may spend more on goaltending (about the same as Vancouver if you remove Lalime), but they spend approx. 1/2 of what the other teams do on defence and less on the total team then Buffalo. the closest team to compare to Buffalo is Nashville, they spend less on goaltending by about $3 mil, but $4mil more on their defence. Also, the teams really scrimping on goaltending all have great defences infront of them and typically more then just one goaltender (they have a rotation of atleast 2 good goalies) Its crazy that we are actually having this discussion, talking about replacing Miller with a kid who has started in 15 NHL games for his career That the discussion is happening is par for the course. There will always be people looking for the contrarian way and if it were more nuanced, a plausible case could be made. (Basically by somebody following along Carp's well thought out post.) What is truly crazy, is that after having consistently gone through arguably the worst backup goaltending in the league since Biron was traded; NOW, when the Sabres finally have a reasonable backup situation, people want to punt Miller. How about we see how it works out w/ both Ryan having a reasonable workload and other teams getting some film of NHL quality shots on Enroth before we decide that Miller's contract is holding this team down and that Enroth (and his lower salary) are the salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 That the discussion is happening is par for the course. There will always be people looking for the contrarian way and if it were more nuanced, a plausible case could be made. (Basically by somebody following along Carp's well thought out post.) What is truly crazy, is that after having consistently gone through arguably the worst backup goaltending in the league since Biron was traded; NOW, when the Sabres finally have a reasonable backup situation, people want to punt Miller. How about we see how it works out w/ both Ryan having a reasonable workload and other teams getting some film of NHL quality shots on Enroth before we decide that Miller's contract is holding this team down and that Enroth (and his lower salary) are the salvation. if this team was against the cap i could understand the debate a little more, but theres still plenty of cap space and what most are forgetting is that teams going the cheap route with goaltending have a couple of options in net. Millers contract is not holding this team down, and its easier to just build up the defence a little bit more then go out and try building up a defence even more while taking the risk of Enroth stepping in and being able to handle a full season. Right now buffalo could have something similar to what boston has in net with Thomas and Rask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 That the discussion is happening is par for the course. There will always be people looking for the contrarian way and if it were more nuanced, a plausible case could be made. (Basically by somebody following along Carp's well thought out post.) What is truly crazy, is that after having consistently gone through arguably the worst backup goaltending in the league since Biron was traded; NOW, when the Sabres finally have a reasonable backup situation, people want to punt Miller. How about we see how it works out w/ both Ryan having a reasonable workload and other teams getting some film of NHL quality shots on Enroth before we decide that Miller's contract is holding this team down and that Enroth (and his lower salary) are the salvation. The trouble is ....if cheap and reliable goaltending options were so readily available, do you think that Toronto would have missed the playoffs for the last ....how many years has it been...? Reimer may be the one....but I'd still be nervous in Toronto. Goaltenders with great debuts that come back to the league quickly are legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 The trouble is ....if cheap and reliable goaltending options were so readily available, do you think that Toronto would have missed the playoffs for the last ....how many years has it been...? Reimer may be the one....but I'd still be nervous in Toronto. Goaltenders with great debuts that come back to the league quickly are legion. are you kidding, they are talking Playoffs next year (after Richards decides to sign in the hockey Holy Land) and Vezina for OptimusReim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 are you kidding, they are talking Playoffs next year (after Richards decides to sign in the hockey Holy Land) and Vezina for OptimusReim Still better to be in Hockey Heaven rather than have to settle for Hockey Holy Land. GO SABRES!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 are you kidding, they are talking Playoffs next year (after Richards decides to sign in the hockey Holy Land) and Vezina for OptimusReim Riemer hasn't gone through the funk. He will. But I gotta say, I can understand the hope.... What is it with Toronto and the need to nickname goalies....it's like a curse . :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 Riemer hasn't gone through the funk. He will. But I gotta say, I can understand the hope.... What is it with Toronto and the need to nickname goalies....it's like a curse . :lol: The Monster (a previous nickname I believe) has hardly been one OptimusReime - was one the fans gave him I believe, on their game broadcast they use The Reime Minister of Defence (Prime Minister, canadian politics) They go through this every year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 It's a shame he pronounces his name that way because I still want to call him Doug Reimer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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