PASabreFan Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I agree that it would have been silly for the Sabres to make Orpik an offer if his only appeal to them was his hometown, but I've also come to think that he is exactly the kind of guy they need, and they should have gone after him. He's a good-to-very-good, 1st or 2nd pair defenseman who is quite physical. Dumping Tallinder last summer and then signing Orpik as a UFA would have been a very strong move. Coupled with Rivet, Orpik would've substantially increased the toughness factor on the Sabres' D, and we probably would've seen fewer hits on Miller. They would've had to overpay for him, but he's a good player who would've filled a real hole on the team. Agreed, mostly. What I like about Orpik is how his play seems to step up the bigger the game is. Oh yeah, I really dislike how Pierre Maguire mangles his name -- Or-peck. I've been trying to put my finger on why I don't care for Maguire, and the mangling sort of gets me there. He seems to think he's God's gift to hockey analysis, the final arbiter of all things, including, apparently how players' names are pronounced. Dat-suck. It's annoying and more than accidental, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Agreed, mostly. What I like about Orpik is how his play seems to step up the bigger the game is. I am still mostly unimpressed with Orpik. I thought last night was his best game in an unremarkable post-season for him. It is good when he can get a hit or block a shot. But he spends way too much time chasing the play and is really vulnerable to a good forecheck....to which Scuderi actually should get a lot of credit. I think most of the attention on him comes from the stage...not the ability. Having said that....hitting and shot-blocking are a thin area for Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I agree that it would have been silly for the Sabres to make Orpik an offer if his only appeal to them was his hometown, but I've also come to think that he is exactly the kind of guy they need, and they should have gone after him. He's a good-to-very-good, 1st or 2nd pair defenseman who is quite physical. Dumping Tallinder last summer and then signing Orpik as a UFA would have been a very strong move. Coupled with Rivet, Orpik would've substantially increased the toughness factor on the Sabres' D, and we probably would've seen fewer hits on Miller. They would've had to overpay for him, but he's a good player who would've filled a real hole on the team. I'll disagree on his possibly being a 1st pair defensemen. But really, the point is that if they're not interested, there is no reason to make any offers at all. Disagree with the team not wanting him, that's fine, but to the whole slap in the face idea is just plain stupid. Bucky has mentioned this once or twice. I think he's really improved since his display during the Vanek press conference, but I don't understand his stance here. edit: I'm pretty much in the same camp as X when it comes to Orpik. He's overpriced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I'll disagree on his possibly being a 1st pair defensemen. But really, the point is that if they're not interested, there is no reason to make any offers at all. Disagree with the team not wanting him, that's fine, but to the whole slap in the face idea is just plain stupid. Bucky has mentioned this once or twice. I think he's really improved since his display during the Vanek press conference, but I don't understand his stance here.edit: I'm pretty much in the same camp as X when it comes to Orpik. He's overpriced. Well, he plays quite a bit (not all the time, but plenty of it, including last night) with Gonchar on the top pairing of a 2-time Cup finalist. There are plenty of teams on which he'd be a 2nd-pair defenseman, but he's probably 1st-pair on the Sabres. As for being overpriced -- maybe a little, but would you rather have him at $3.75MM, or Tallinder at $3.25MM (or for that matter Spacek at $3.33MM)? As for the slap in the face comment -- I don't recall Bucky saying that, but it's certainly possible. He did lobby for both Orpik and Wisniewski, and I think both would have been very good additions for the Sabres (although I wouldn't have traded Connolly for Wisniewski, as Bucky wanted to do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Well, he plays quite a bit (not all the time, but plenty of it, including last night) with Gonchar on the top pairing of a 2-time Cup finalist. There are plenty of teams on which he'd be a 2nd-pair defenseman, but he's probably 1st-pair on the Sabres. As for being overpriced -- maybe a little, but would you rather have him at $3.75MM, or Tallinder at $3.25MM (or for that matter Spacek at $3.33MM)? As for the slap in the face comment -- I don't recall Bucky saying that, but it's certainly possible. He did lobby for both Orpik and Wisniewski, and I think both would have been very good additions for the Sabres (although I wouldn't have traded Connolly for Wisniewski, as Bucky wanted to do). I really think the question of which pair would Orpik be, is the wrong one. He's going to max about 22 min. tops....and that is without pinching or pressure in the neutral zone...which he really can't do. If you are going to let the play come to you and ride guys outside and block shots....he's your guy to stay at home. I would say that any of the top 5 d-men on Detroit could play first pair in Buffalo. But if Pitt wins game 7, it will be in spite of the D, not because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SabresFan526 Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I love that you brought up Orpik. The revisionist history that has been popping up recently about his offseason has been amusing. All these stories about how he could've signed for a lot more somewhere else but went back to Pittsburgh for his shot at the cup. What a joke. He wanted to cash out but didn't see the market he expected. Pittsburgh failed on their attempt to re-sign Hossa, so they went crawling back to Orpik. The other thing that bugs me is how some like to say that not offering Orpik a deal was a major slap in the face from the Sabres. All that tells me is that they weren't interested in him, which is fine by me. You're supposed to make a minor offer to a guy you're not interested in just because he's a local? Absurd. I think what hurt Orpik was the bad precedent set by Jay McKee and Scott Hannan. Both are defensive stay at home defenseman that got huge offers the previous two seasons before Orpik and they both have not lived up to their contracts. And, as much as we all like to rip on opposing GMs for inflating the market, they are generally pretty smart and learn from other people's mistakes. I think that's one of the reasons Orpik did not get the bidding war that McKee and Hannan got because the other GMs saw how bad those deals were for a defensive defenseman that they were not willing to pay a huge premium for a guy like Orpik. In McKee's case, the injury woes have really hurt him due to the style of game he plays. For Hannan, he was never all that great in the first place and took advantage of a huge increase in the salary cap. Given the history of defensive defenseman, I don't see how a GM can justify paying top dollar in the $4 million range for a guy who's not going to give you any offense even though he's very good defensively. The defensive skill alone does not justify that kind of value in my opinion. But, no doubt, he didn't come back to Pittsburgh because he wanted to win the Cup, he came back to Pittsburgh because it was the best offer on the table. If he really wanted to come back to Pittsburgh, he would have signed before July 1st. As for the Sabres, having said all that I did, I would have liked to bring in Orpik as his toughness and defensive ability would have really helped the Sabres blueline as that seemed to really be lacking going into last offseason prior to the Rivet acquisition. However, I'd rather have Craig Rivet who is generally a very good defensive defenseman (he was a bit underwhelming this year though), brings a lot more offense than Orpik, has more NHL experience and leadership, and comes in at a lower cap number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 As for the slap in the face comment -- I don't recall Bucky saying that, but it's certainly possible. He did lobby for both Orpik and Wisniewski, and I think both would have been very good additions for the Sabres (although I wouldn't have traded Connolly for Wisniewski, as Bucky wanted to do). It was a radio interview with Bucky, so it's easy enough to have missed it. He has pushed the Orpik thing a bit lately. I don't agree with him, but I'm glad he's doing it. We've got a local kid on this stage and she should be mentioned as much as possible. Hockey's is in good shape in Buffalo, but this is only going to help grow the sport at the youth level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dscrapj Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I think what hurt Orpik was the bad precedent set by Jay McKee and Scott Hannan. Both are defensive stay at home defenseman that got huge offers the previous two seasons before Orpik and they both have not lived up to their contracts. And, as much as we all like to rip on opposing GMs for inflating the market, they are generally pretty smart and learn from other people's mistakes. I think that's one of the reasons Orpik did not get the bidding war that McKee and Hannan got because the other GMs saw how bad those deals were for a defensive defenseman that they were not willing to pay a huge premium for a guy like Orpik. In McKee's case, the injury woes have really hurt him due to the style of game he plays. For Hannan, he was never all that great in the first place and took advantage of a huge increase in the salary cap. Given the history of defensive defenseman, I don't see how a GM can justify paying top dollar in the $4 million range for a guy who's not going to give you any offense even though he's very good defensively. The defensive skill alone does not justify that kind of value in my opinion. But, no doubt, he didn't come back to Pittsburgh because he wanted to win the Cup, he came back to Pittsburgh because it was the best offer on the table. If he really wanted to come back to Pittsburgh, he would have signed before July 1st. As for the Sabres, having said all that I did, I would have liked to bring in Orpik as his toughness and defensive ability would have really helped the Sabres blueline as that seemed to really be lacking going into last offseason prior to the Rivet acquisition. However, I'd rather have Craig Rivet who is generally a very good defensive defenseman (he was a bit underwhelming this year though), brings a lot more offense than Orpik, has more NHL experience and leadership, and comes in at a lower cap number. Well stated by both of you. Give GM's credit. Orpik was playing less than 20 minutes a game and played primarily at even strength, with the occassional penalty killing duties. In the cap era teams, particularly the Sabres, must get more value for their money. At 4million a year he isn't worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Canes trying to lock up Cole prior to July 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 Canes trying to lock up Cole prior to July 1st. Nothing to see here.....Hurry and get your 2009-10 Cane Season tickets, good seats still available. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 I agree that it would have been silly for the Sabres to make Orpik an offer if his only appeal to them was his hometown, but I've also come to think that he is exactly the kind of guy they need, and they should have gone after him. He's a good-to-very-good, 1st or 2nd pair defenseman who is quite physical. Dumping Tallinder last summer and then signing Orpik as a UFA would have been a very strong move. Coupled with Rivet, Orpik would've substantially increased the toughness factor on the Sabres' D, and we probably would've seen fewer hits on Miller. They would've had to overpay for him, but he's a good player who would've filled a real hole on the team. And there you have why they didn't go after him. I also think that they'd've had him pencilled in more as a 5th D man than a top pair. But bring him in instead of Hank, and I'd've been pretty happy w/ the D. Spach - Reggie Toni - Rivet Orpik - Teppo The biggest thing bringing him in would be keeping toughness in the forefront when Rivet was injured. The team actually played w/ a bit of an edge the 1st few games last year. That never really came back after Rivet was injured early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted June 10, 2009 Report Share Posted June 10, 2009 And there you have why they didn't go after him. I also think that they'd've had him pencilled in more as a 5th D man than a top pair. But bring him in instead of Hank, and I'd've been pretty happy w/ the D. Spach - Reggie Toni - Rivet Orpik - Teppo The biggest thing bringing him in would be keeping toughness in the forefront when Rivet was injured. The team actually played w/ a bit of an edge the 1st few games last year. That never really came back after Rivet was injured early. Well, if they thought of him as a #5 defenseman, then $4MM would've been way too much for that slot -- so as you point out, that's why they didn't bother. FWIW, I look at those pairings and would be much happier with Orpik and Sekera trading places. I think Reggie will develop into a very good defenseman, but too much was asked of him this year and his play tailed off in the last 2 months of the season. But I like the look of the top 6 (and it doesn't even include Butler, who I also think will develop into a quality defenseman). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted June 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Well, if they thought of him as a #5 defenseman, then $4MM would've been way too much for that slot -- so as you point out, that's why they didn't bother. FWIW, I look at those pairings and would be much happier with Orpik and Sekera trading places. I think Reggie will develop into a very good defenseman, but too much was asked of him this year and his play tailed off in the last 2 months of the season. But I like the look of the top 6 (and it doesn't even include Butler, who I also think will develop into a quality defenseman). Don't be stuck on where he would be slotted on the defense. You have to look at what Orpik would have brought to the Sabres along with his defensive skills. He would have brought with him a pair of balls which this team is sorely lacking. I would gladly overpay any player that would come in and toughen this roster up. Orpik was the right fit at the right time for the Sabres and again Regier is too busy jacking off to his own roster to address the serious needs of this team. With Orpik on the roster maybe Miller doesn't get run all season and is healthy for the stretch run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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