How would you line them up?

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

Benson isn't but that's a long argument so let's leave it as agree to disagree.

Thompson is bad defensively but you forgive that a little. Most teams have an offensive star or two who is bad defensively. Boston's a highly structured team but Pasternak can make huge defensive gaffs and that's forgiven with offensive production. Same can hold for a few guys here like Thompson, but the rest of the team has to pick up the slack. 

Now look at the rest of the better defensive players you listed. Tuch, Zucker, McLeod, all developed outside the Sabres system and methods. Their defensive game was imported, which argues to my point about too much internal development and not enough veterans brought in. Our internal defensive development is not good. 

Zach Benson is the best defensive player on the team. But you're right, he imported that himself. It's why I want Wilford gone and why they need to understand drafting better. 

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Benson isn't but that's a long argument so let's leave it as agree to disagree.

Thompson is bad defensively but you forgive that a little. Most teams have an offensive star or two who is bad defensively. Boston's a highly structured team but Pasternak can make huge defensive gaffs and that's forgiven with offensive production. Same can hold for a few guys here like Thompson, but the rest of the team has to pick up the slack. 

Now look at the rest of the better defensive players you listed. Tuch, Zucker, McLeod, all developed outside the Sabres system and methods. Their defensive game was imported, which argues to my point about too much internal development and not enough veterans brought in. Our internal defensive development is not good. 

Tage isn’t bad defensively tho. A superstar is great offence and merely ok D. I think people forget that sometimes 

Great offence and great D is prime Crosby 

[PerreaultForever]

9 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Zach Benson is the best defensive player on the team. But you're right, he imported that himself. It's why I want Wilford gone and why they need to understand drafting better. 

Yes, that's part of why I said it's a complicated argument. Benson shouldn't be the best defensive forward. He is in part because they are so bad. He has been well coached and he does think the game through properly at a high speed. There is nothing about Benson's game I dislike. It still remains to be seen how effective he can end up being due to his size (as in a high end player or a mid level player) but despite his size I'd bet he's already stronger than Quinn (and some others) and he's still growing. We need to focus on his development though and not just go "oh he's fine, let him grow on his own". 

We both have issues with their coaching, no question. 

[PerreaultForever]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Tage isn’t bad defensively tho. A superstar is great offence and merely ok D. I think people forget that sometimes 

Great offence and great D is prime Crosby 

Tage could be better, but okay, let's not say "bad". Some of the others are worse. Team as a whole plays open ice hockey, doesn't win puck battles, and breaks down structurally often. 

Absolutely on Crosby. Bergeron and Kopitar were the perfect players for me. Excellent offensively but total shut down defensively. Currently, this is Barkov, who quietly leads Florida with a perfect 2 way game while Bennett and Tkachuk etc get all the press. 

[dudacek]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Benson isn't but that's a long argument so let's leave it as agree to disagree.

Thompson is bad defensively but you forgive that a little. Most teams have an offensive star or two who is bad defensively. Boston's a highly structured team but Pasternak can make huge defensive gaffs and that's forgiven with offensive production. Same can hold for a few guys here like Thompson, but the rest of the team has to pick up the slack. 

Now look at the rest of the better defensive players you listed. Tuch, Zucker, McLeod, all developed outside the Sabres system and methods. Their defensive game was imported, which argues to my point about too much internal development and not enough veterans brought in. Our internal defensive development is not good. 

Thompson ranks 4th among Sabres forwards in Corsi, 3rd in GF% and 2nd in xG%. He’s above 50% in all three measures.

He’s also almost certainly playing against good players.

[dudacek]

Money puck has an interesting section I hadn’t really checked out before: basically defence per hour:

The bad defenders:

Most shot attempts against per 60:

• Clifton 63.4
• Zucker 62.1
• Peterka 61.5
• Kulich 60.6
• Quinn 60.4

Most high danger shots against per 60:

• Peterka 3.41
• Lafferty 3.16
• Byram 3.06
• Clifton 3.04
• Samuelsson 2.94

Expected goals against per 60:

• Peterka 3.0
• Bryson 2.9
• Quinn 2.8
• Zucker 2.8
• Clifton 2.8

 

 

 

 

 

[dudacek]

The good defenders:

Least shot attempts against per 60:

• Benson 50.58
• Dahlin 52.61
• Malenstyn 55.5
• Krebs 55.68
• Greenway 56.32

Least high danger shots against per 60:

• Benson 1.84
• Greenway 2.23
• Dahlin 2.44
• Power 2.48
• McLeod 2.48

Fewest expected goals against per 60:

• Benson 2.2
• Dahlin 2.36
• Malenstyn 2.45
• Lafferty 2.55
• Tuch 2.58

[PerreaultForever]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Money puck has an interesting section I hadn’t really checked out before: basically defence per hour:

The bad defenders:

Most shot attempts against per 60:

• Clifton 63.4
• Zucker 62.1
• Peterka 61.5
• Kulich 60.6
• Quinn 60.4

Most high danger shots against per 60:

• Peterka 3.41
• Lafferty 3.16
• Byram 3.06
• Clifton 3.04
• Samuelsson 2.94

Expected goals against per 60:

• Peterka 3.0
• Bryson 2.9
• Quinn 2.8
• Zucker 2.8
• Clifton 2.8

 

 

 

 

 

How do they measure high danger shots against when there are 5 guys on the ice? Aren't all 5 responsible?

Also, I thought the stats said Zucker was one of our good defenders?

[JohnC]

18 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Zach Benson is the best defensive player on the team. But you're right, he imported that himself. It's why I want Wilford gone and why they need to understand drafting better. 

Is it Ruff who wants to keep this coach on or is it the organization mandating it? There were reports that there were overtures to some coaches who simply didn't want to come here. That's a commentary onto itself about how this franchise is perceived.

[dudacek]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

How do they measure high danger shots against when there are 5 guys on the ice? Aren't all 5 responsible?

Also, I thought the stats said Zucker was one of our good defenders?

1. yes it works like +\-, all 5 get get blame

2. Not according to 2 of these stats, he was fine in the 3rd.

[Taro T]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

Money puck has an interesting section I hadn’t really checked out before: basically defence per hour:

The bad defenders:

Most shot attempts against per 60:

• Clifton 63.4
• Zucker 62.1
• Peterka 61.5
• Kulich 60.6
• Quinn 60.4

Most high danger shots against per 60:

• Peterka 3.41
• Lafferty 3.16
• Byram 3.06
• Clifton 3.04
• Samuelsson 2.94

Expected goals against per 60:

• Peterka 3.0
• Bryson 2.9
• Quinn 2.8
• Zucker 2.8
• Clifton 2.8

 

 

 

 

 

The 2 bad Zucker stats don't pass the eye test.  Kind of surprising.

[dudacek]

34 minutes ago, Taro T said:

The 2 bad Zucker stats don't pass the eye test.  Kind of surprising.

I tend to agree.

By my eye test last year:

Good defensively: Greenway, McLeod Tuch, Benson, Dahlin

Bad: Cozens, Quinn, Peterka, Lafferty, Power, Clifton, Samuelsson, Bryson

Fine: Krebs and Zucker

Adequate: Thompson, Kulich, Jokiharju, Malenstyn and Byram

By reputation Doan is good, Timmins Kesselring, Norris and Danforth are fine.

We shall see if that survives the Sabres, and if Power, Quinn and Samuelsson- who were all better under Granato - can bounce back.

Edited 1 hour ago by dudacek